17:11:22 <mrphs> #startmeeting
17:11:22 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu May 12 17:11:22 2016 UTC.  The chair is mrphs. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:11:22 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:11:42 <lnl> We plan to send some updates soon, but I think that best done through email.
17:12:00 <mrphs> #topic UX team meeting
17:12:01 <lnl> My thesis is due tomorrow, and I graduate this weekend. But I should have some time soon to sned updates.
17:12:20 <isabela> !!!!
17:12:25 <isabela> oh wow
17:12:30 <isabela> :) congrats lnl
17:12:39 <lnl> thanks. :)
17:12:47 <mrphs> lnl: !!!! congrats
17:12:57 <scouttle> woot woot lnl
17:13:09 <ame_e> insert applause and trophy emojis
17:13:37 <mrphs> #idea list open discussions on wiki page
17:13:45 <mrphs> (am i doing the meetbot thing right?)
17:14:59 <mrphs> I've an update too.
17:15:32 <mrphs> that my ux fellowship went up a level. i was invited to send a proposal.
17:15:42 <lnl> ◕ ◡ ◕
17:15:43 <mrphs> *fingers corssed*
17:15:59 <mrphs> ame_e: scouttle: any updates on the guideline front?
17:16:11 <ame_e> Yes.
17:16:32 <ame_e> Several people have written in expressing interest, and attaching portfolios/links to work.
17:16:47 <lnl> Yay!
17:16:56 <ame_e> And I'm consolidating those to share with OTF.
17:17:28 <ame_e> It's so gratifying (waves to designers) to see.
17:17:29 <mrphs> lnl: one of the things i wanna do in this fellowship is to make it easier for usable security researchers like you to contribute to the process. so I would love to talk to you at some point about your experiences with us.
17:17:34 <isabela> nice :)
17:18:32 <lnl> @mrphs, thanks for doing that. I am happy to talk after this meeting or over email.
17:18:43 <mrphs> awesome
17:19:11 <mrphs> ame_e: what does the timeline look like?
17:19:33 <ame_e> Well, I don't have great visibility into OTF's process. But I'd like to share the list next week.
17:20:08 <ame_e> My longterm vision is that Simply Secure isn't the middle man/broker forever. And part of that is getting OTF to build their sense of how to find, vet, hire designers.
17:20:42 <ame_e> Which means it may take longer than click these links and poof someone's picked. But I also don't have a ton of day-to-day experience with how they get things done.
17:21:03 <mrphs> is there anything i can do to help?
17:21:30 <mrphs> I'm physically located in a convenient place and can easily go and chat with them about all this
17:21:39 <PhilipL> and about the further timeline, what does depent on the style guide? and what other projects are there? is there anything that can be done in the meantime?
17:22:17 <mrphs> yeah my understanding was that we made the guideline super minimal so we can have it done as soon as possible
17:22:45 <PhilipL> so there is nothing on the agenda until we finish that?
17:22:51 <mrphs> but also bear in mind that we're creating a lot of new process here
17:22:56 <ame_e> Yes, that is true.
17:23:08 <ame_e> Sorry slow typer. @phillipl and @mrphs, both good points.
17:23:30 <mrphs> this team is a whole new thing to this community. this thing we're asking otf to do is totally new.
17:23:31 <ame_e> Well, in the meantime we can work on the Orbot name.
17:23:52 <PhilipL> mrphs: what does process mean here? building up the whole ux team adn structure?
17:24:13 <isabela> ame_e: true and I would also think the wiki
17:24:21 <mrphs> yes. and finding the way to get things done properly.
17:24:24 <mrphs> PhilipL: ^
17:24:31 <lnl> What are the things?
17:24:45 <ihutc> sarah gold: says hi, and yes, Orbot name needs changing
17:24:50 <mrphs> there are so many. right? from revamping the design of th website to possible logo change
17:25:07 <ihutc> Hi Ame, Mrphs & Isa (from Sarah)
17:25:09 <mrphs> to fixing all the known ux issues in tor browser
17:25:18 <isabela> i like that ame_e will send info on how to think of names
17:25:29 <isabela> maybe our participation here can be beyond just helping with suggestions
17:25:34 <isabela> but documenting how we are doing it
17:25:42 <isabela> so others get these tips as well
17:25:48 <PhilipL> Is Guardian waiting for something or did they just want to have some input?
17:25:55 <mrphs> ihutc: oh hai! I'm glad sarah is reading this meeting. she should join us herself for the next time :)
17:25:58 <isabela> we can document this in the wiki under the discussion topic
17:26:15 <isabela> PhilipL: i dont know the Guardian timeline
17:26:18 <ame_e> Hello Sarah!
17:26:19 <isabela> n8fr8: ^^
17:26:30 <n8fr8> wha?
17:26:40 <isabela> do you have a timeline for the name search?
17:26:43 <isabela> i mean
17:26:44 <isabela> deadline
17:26:45 <ame_e> We're talking about the naming challenge.
17:27:11 <n8fr8> Ah. I don't have a specific timeline. We are going to do a quick update of Orfox for Android, with a new non-infringing logo, but same name.
17:27:12 <ame_e> The Tor UX email has had some discussion about Pearl versus Orbot versus
17:27:22 <n8fr8> Yes, I appreciated all the feedback and am now on that list!
17:27:39 <ame_e> I reached out to some brand people, who asked me some hard questions about the values the name is supposed to communicate.
17:27:58 <ame_e> One thing I could share is some resources to structure answers to those questions.
17:28:09 <ihutc> mrphs: I'm Ian, I'm holding the fort for IF, but it's good to be involved! Would like to chat at some point about contributing to Tor's design
17:28:18 <ame_e> There's an inherent tension between something that's elite and technical
17:28:27 <ame_e> And something approachable and mass-market.
17:28:31 <mrphs> ihutc: would love that!
17:28:46 <n8fr8> Resources for this kind of process would be great. Overall I think by end of summer we want to have some Tor mobile brand consensus/roadmap/plan
17:29:03 <ame_e> And this is an opportunity to navigate that tension. I'm sharing some links with ideas of questions, and together we can work on the answers.
17:29:09 <isabela> ihutc: hi o/
17:29:14 <isabela> ihutc: welcome
17:29:17 <n8fr8> as that lines up with current development efforts for both the Android and iOS browsers
17:29:28 <n8fr8> cool. is this the normal UX meeting time/place?
17:29:41 <ame_e> At a top line, to an outsider, "the onion" is confusing. People don't know it's an acronym, and onions don't always have positive assoications.
17:29:42 <isabela> n8fr8: yes!
17:29:53 <ame_e> They make your eyes water, they give you bad breath, whatever.
17:29:53 <isabela> n8fr8: well time and place might change :) hehe
17:30:06 <isabela> n8fr8: we are about to put a pool up in the email list
17:30:11 <n8fr8> okay. will try to attend more.
17:30:14 <mrphs> n8fr8: I will soon send an email about the new potential schedule to the list. but yes, so far this is it :)
17:30:21 <ame_e> So that's a bold outsider comment, although as someone more connected to Tor
17:30:38 <scouttle> ^^ just want to amplify what ame_e's saying
17:30:38 <mrphs> yes what isabela said :p
17:30:41 <ame_e> I can see that there are also positive associations too, but the naming and metaphor needs a point of view on that.
17:30:58 <scouttle> the mobile app stores are a great opportunity to grow the userbase of Tor
17:31:11 <mrphs> i love these feedbacks
17:31:37 <scouttle> and so it's a good opportunity to think about how to appeal not just to insiders who already know what it is (and are into onions / Tor wordplay), but to new people too
17:31:48 <mrphs> is there a way we can get this brand people on the list or encourage them to get engaged with the community more directly about their thoughts?
17:31:56 <ame_e> Yes
17:32:00 <PhilipL> of course the onion link has a sort of humor, but that would be ok i guess. if you search for a tor browser you will know that there is this onion theme.
17:32:25 <ame_e> I mean that's my hope. And I'm not defending "onions are icky, go in a different direction."
17:32:47 <mrphs> yeah that would be a no go :D
17:32:54 <mrphs> unless we wanna change tor name too. jk
17:32:55 <ame_e> I'm trying to point out that the discussion of onion, versus what kind of onion, and onion with a modifier is symbolic of an underlying tension.
17:32:58 <scouttle> If it ends up having an onion theme, that's cool. But rather than using that as the starting place, is there a way to start from the values / concepts that would really bring people to Tor, and build on that?
17:33:01 <PhilipL> or will there be a new focus on anonymity, dismissing the tor thing?
17:34:03 <mrphs> or for orbot and mobile things, we can focus on the circumvention side and encryption side
17:34:06 <mrphs> rather the anonymity
17:34:10 <mrphs> since it's not too anonymous
17:34:11 <scouttle> yes!
17:34:17 <scouttle> talk about values!
17:34:32 <isabela> that is a good discussion to have
17:34:51 <scouttle> start with the things that users get from the browser, rather than starting with a brand that many aren't familiar with (and building clever insider jokes on top of it)
17:35:10 <scouttle> it's easy to then convey the Tor affiliation in the app store listing
17:35:15 <scouttle> and/or with colors, typography, etc.
17:35:18 <mrphs> ie "this is a privacy preservation tool" rather than "anonymity tool"
17:35:47 <isabela> well
17:35:48 <isabela> this is the thing
17:35:57 <isabela> is not them and us i think
17:36:00 <ame_e> This conversation is familiar to other conversations about naming and branding I've had. In that, it's hard to name things because naming them shapes things. It's hard to name things if you don't know what they are. But it's hard to know what they are without a name. So quickly the conversation becomes about "well what is this thing REALLY about."
17:36:14 <isabela> we need to think this together for  the mission of tor.. specially giving that most ppl who needs tools like this are on mobile
17:36:32 <ame_e> I can't tell if that made sense. The English is clumsy with too many "them"s.
17:36:49 <isabela> user expectations must be our goal on everything not only for mobile but during user experience in every product
17:37:02 <mrphs> isabela: oh no that's not what i meant. sorry if it came off the wrong way. i mean that's how we should focus on branding and marketing
17:37:39 <isabela> yes that is why this is very important
17:37:59 <PhilipL> yes. any more tangible values related to privacy?
17:38:00 <isabela> the mobile browser name is very important
17:38:05 <PhilipL> why is privacy important/good
17:38:24 <ame_e> ^^
17:38:29 <mrphs> i think nowadays people have a good sense on why they need privacy
17:38:34 <ame_e> Hey, look at me using ^^ like a boss.
17:38:55 <ame_e> I'm not sure that's universally true. I like Philip's framing about why.
17:38:58 <ame_e> What are the benefits?
17:38:59 <mrphs> and i think our target audience are the people who already want privacy but dont know how.
17:39:26 <scouttle> most everyone wants privacy
17:39:29 <mrphs> more people in the broader community are focused on the values of privacy
17:39:38 <scouttle> very few people have a mental model of what "privacy" really means in the online context
17:39:41 <PhilipL> so it is more about facilitating privacy
17:39:59 <mrphs> ^^ yes, that's what we're specialized and good in.
17:40:10 <mrphs> ame_e: irc ninja :D
17:40:27 <ame_e> :0
17:40:39 <PhilipL> yes, but maybe we find a less abstract definition of that. so we have a few adjectives we can base the further concept on
17:41:13 <mrphs> so yes, people want privacy but dont know how to get it. - we want to give them the right tool, and also teach them it's not just about trusting yet another app
17:41:30 <PhilipL> thats a good point
17:41:42 <n8fr8> i think we can also have a pretty simple, low bar to explaining things. as an example, I use Orfox when I am in "read only" mindset where I just want to check the news, links, catch up, and "browse like the old days" without having any history of that tracked, logged, indexed, analyzed, stored, etc.
17:42:01 <mrphs> i guess that's when it gets a bit tricky. where we want to educate them about things. one step at a time. but also provide all the steps for those who walk faster.
17:42:35 <n8fr8> but I use Chrome browser for many other things still as well... so we aren't talking about a wholesale switch here, just another tool, app, thing to have
17:42:54 <mrphs> yeah totally
17:43:11 <mrphs> it's more about learning how to adapt a new behavior
17:43:57 * isabela i am half here - sorry
17:45:57 <scouttle> I also need to run
17:46:08 <mrphs> isabela: we all love you for what you do. even if only half of you is here :D
17:46:35 <lnl> isabela: :)
17:46:41 <n8fr8> well thanks for the input and participation in the process. we can take a bit of time, so any more resources or process notes from simplysecure team are helpful.
17:46:42 <scouttle> but, for next steps on app branding, I think ame_e will send an email with some of the resources from the brand experts
17:46:45 <mrphs> okay. before we wrap it up, does anyone want to talk about any other things?
17:46:48 <n8fr8> yup
17:46:53 <ihutc> yes!
17:46:54 <n8fr8> i mean yup to scouttle
17:46:59 <scouttle> :)
17:47:27 <mrphs> looking forward to those emails
17:47:55 <mrphs> let's work together to make sure we can involve these experts in our community more frequently
17:47:59 <ame_e> I'll get that right out. And yes.
17:48:04 <PhilipL> i have no other things to talk about
17:48:09 <PhilipL> looking forward to the mails
17:48:26 <ame_e> I'm glad to see Sarah with @ihutch too.
17:48:30 <mrphs> okay, thanks everyone for your time and contribution.
17:48:49 <mrphs> #endmeeting