14:00:26 <karsten> #startmeeting Measurement Team meeting
14:00:26 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Aug 26 14:00:26 2015 UTC.  The chair is karsten. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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14:00:32 <karsten> hi. who's here for the meeting?
14:00:41 <tomlurge> hi, me
14:00:47 <karsten> hi tomlurge
14:01:41 <Sebastian> <-
14:01:46 <karsten> hi Sebastian
14:01:56 <karsten> and I just talked to virgil who said he's here for the meeting.
14:02:28 <karsten> let's make an agenda for today. I didn't suggest one this time, so that we talk about the things you really care about. :)
14:02:52 <karsten> what do you want to talk about?
14:04:11 <virgil> I want to be able to run hidden services on heroku
14:04:14 <virgil> but that's just me.
14:04:23 <Sebastian> I'm here for the community team, if there's anything for that let me know. Otherwise I'll listen
14:04:30 <tomlurge> I don’t have an explicit agenda. If anyone by chance knows about D3 and React though…
14:05:26 <karsten> virgil: can this group help with that desire to run hidden services on heroku somehow?
14:06:22 <karsten> Sebastian: do you have ideas what things we should talk about that the community team would be interested in?
14:06:55 <Sebastian> maybe after the community team meeting in a few hours ;)
14:07:07 <karsten> tomlurge: not sure if people know those frameworks, but maybe we could talk about something you're trying to implement conceptually.
14:07:53 <Sebastian> ah btw, there was this task exchange thing the other day
14:08:04 <Sebastian> I already did the thing I mentioned so I don't have a task :)
14:08:17 <karsten> sure, we can do another round of that if people want.
14:08:52 <Sebastian> I don't know where the task is listed, it needs to be removed in any case
14:09:02 <karsten> Sebastian: let me find the list..
14:09:03 <karsten> 1. d3/react/concepts of what tomlurge is trying to build
14:09:03 <karsten> 2. another round of 1-1-1 task exchange
14:09:13 <karsten> that's the agenda so far. what else?
14:09:55 <tomlurge> I ran into a problem when aggregating daily and monthly timespans. Seems that there are a lot more Autonomous Systems in use than I expected. Does anyone have a guess on how many AS are used on a typical day?
14:10:33 <karsten> tomlurge: okay, let's start with 1. (if any other agenda items come up, just mention them here.)
14:11:09 <karsten> and by "used" you mean relays showing up that are located in an AS?
14:11:26 <tomlurge> yes, taht’s what I mean
14:11:54 <karsten> let's find out how many different ASes there are in the current network.
14:12:38 <karsten> https://onionoo.torproject.org/details?fields=as_number&type=relay&running=true
14:13:18 <karsten> sort | uniq | wc -l says 1158.
14:13:27 <karsten> add some churn, so maybe 1.5k to 2k?
14:13:40 <tomlurge> that’s for that hour?
14:13:51 <karsten> these 1158 are for this hour.
14:14:20 <tomlurge> and how many different AS would you assume for the whole day?
14:14:33 <tomlurge> just guess….
14:14:42 <karsten> 1500 to 2000?
14:15:08 <tomlurge> and for a month? (there are about 50.000 AS in total IIRC)
14:15:13 <karsten> that's what I meant by churn, that is, joining and leaving relays over the day.
14:15:33 <karsten> huh. 5000?
14:16:07 <karsten> did you try this with country codes?
14:16:12 <karsten> instead of ASes?
14:16:14 <tomlurge> okay, that’s what I had expected too. than probably my script does something unintended.
14:16:41 <tomlurge> countries work fine but that’s a much smaller number
14:17:53 <tomlurge> thanks! now I know that I have to dig into the script again…
14:18:06 <karsten> would you want to complete a version that does countries only, to get some feedback from folks here?
14:19:04 <tomlurge> Totally. I’m all for compromises right now :-) (at least until the Berlin dev meeting)
14:19:42 <karsten> awesome! yay, deadlines! :)
14:20:12 <karsten> but even before that, if you want to discuss a prototype before berlin, just bring it up here.
14:20:16 <tomlurge> and personal invitations by the boss :-)
14:20:54 <tomlurge> of course, but don’t hold your breath for it…
14:21:47 <karsten> sure. I just think that giving feedback can be cheap and save you hours and hours.
14:22:02 <karsten> anything else related to visionion you want to talk about now?
14:22:19 <tomlurge> yep:
14:23:16 <tomlurge> I asked arturo which web framework he uses currently but he didn’t respond. does anybody know?
14:24:16 <karsten> uhm, no idea which web framework the cool kids use today. virgil, what do you use for roster?
14:24:25 <virgil> Flask
14:24:43 <virgil> if it doesn't need to scale ruby on rails is fine
14:24:49 <virgil> if you want the python-way Flask is good for small
14:24:52 <virgil> else Django
14:25:36 <tomlurge> oups. never heard of Flask. ah, python. well, I’m more on the javascript side of things
14:27:02 <karsten> did you check what globe uses? I think I've heard that it uses some good frameworks.
14:27:03 <virgil> there's always meteor
14:27:11 <virgil> if you want javascript, meteor is the way
14:28:56 <tomlurge> Arturo recommended AngularJS, but that was 2 years ago. Well, okay, never mind. I reckon there is no framework that all of Tor has settled on. Globe uses Ember if I recall correctly. Have to check again though. Meteor rather not I’m afraid. I’m leaning towards React or Angular. Ember would be worth a consideration though if other projects use it already
14:29:53 <karsten> pick whatever you're most comfortable with, I'd say.
14:30:12 <karsten> though pick something and then don't switch easily.
14:30:54 <tomlurge> who maintains globe?
14:31:15 <karsten> isis keeps it alive. not sure if she'd consider herself as the maintainer.
14:31:41 <tomlurge> christian built it?
14:31:54 <karsten> yes, but I haven't heard from him for a long while.
14:32:45 <karsten> you could also ask on tor-dev@ if you want to reach more people than the ones who happen to be around today.
14:33:37 <tomlurge> yep, you told. well, then I guess that doesn’t speak for Ember. But okay, enough of that. This topic is a quagmir and I’d rather not raise it on the mailinglist or similar.
14:34:14 <tomlurge> If there was a related project with a living community, that would have made a difference
14:34:48 <karsten> ok. that's not really the case. more choices for you. :)
14:34:59 <tomlurge> all teh better :)
14:35:08 <karsten> should we move to the task exchange thing?
14:35:36 <tomlurge> I’m finished (so to say…)
14:35:44 <karsten> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/HinviuEvmZ
14:36:10 <karsten> Sebastian: the task where you wanted to know all places where threads are started is already done?
14:36:17 <karsten> ah, looks like it. :)
14:36:23 <Sebastian> I crossed it out just no
14:36:24 <Sebastian> w
14:37:25 <karsten> any new tasks for this week?
14:37:45 <karsten> don't be shy, this is your chance to book 1 hour of brain time of a smart person.
14:38:53 <Sebastian> what's the stats situation for ed25519 keys?
14:39:30 <Sebastian> maybe a task would be to figure out more about that. Like, what kind of mappings are/should already be established at the dirauths
14:39:50 <Sebastian> and how many we've seen etc
14:40:03 <karsten> can you elaborate more?
14:40:18 <Sebastian> Tor's identity is tied to an RSA key that's showing its age
14:40:25 <Sebastian> it's being replaced by an ed25519 key
14:40:31 <Sebastian> some relays already use it
14:40:54 <karsten> and I think Stem just added support for those fields.
14:40:55 <Sebastian> dirauths establish a permanent mapping between rsa and ed25519 key as soon as they get the first descriptor
14:40:58 <Sebastian> with both
14:41:48 <karsten> and the question is: how many relays are already using ed25519 keys?
14:42:23 <karsten> or what else can we infer from descriptor contents?
14:43:05 <karsten> maybe part of that question would be: how many relays have been using more than just one ed25519 identity?
14:43:32 <Sebastian> well, the idea was more where we are on the stats front for this migration
14:43:41 <Sebastian> like, identify which tools need work, file the tickets
14:43:55 <Sebastian> so that we're ready stats-wise once more people upgrade to 0.2.7
14:44:15 <karsten> relays will keep their rsa identities for a while, right?
14:44:24 <Sebastian> yes
14:44:43 <Sebastian> but it would be great to not rely on them as their identity as soon as possible
14:44:55 <karsten> oh ok.
14:45:01 <karsten> that's a long list then.
14:45:08 <Sebastian> well, just because rsa1024 is presumably broken
14:45:51 <Sebastian> this is not something for "this week" or even "this year"
14:46:03 <Sebastian> but definitely something for "early next year" I think
14:46:15 <karsten> how about: Identify which measurement-related tools need work when relays switch from RSA identities to ed25519 identities.
14:46:24 <Sebastian> 0.2.7 stabilization is underway, it'll include ed25519 id keys.
14:46:29 <Sebastian> yep.
14:46:43 <Sebastian> I don't personally need the output urgently, but I think you do :)
14:47:06 <karsten> true!
14:47:23 <karsten> very useful.
14:47:34 <karsten> hi SeanSaito
14:47:43 <karsten> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/HinviuEvmZ <- 1-1-1 task exchange
14:47:48 <karsten> any other tasks we should add?
14:48:57 <virgil> I'm still working on my 1-1-1 from last-time
14:49:12 <karsten> sure. I'm doing the same. :)
14:49:31 <karsten> (with mine)
14:49:51 <SeanSaito> hi karsten
14:49:58 <SeanSaito> nothing for now
14:50:04 <karsten> but do you have anything to add, virgil, tomlurge?
14:50:13 <karsten> SeanSaito: ok.
14:50:14 <tomlurge> so it takes more than an hour? (I DID suspect that ;-)
14:50:31 <karsten> nahhhh, that hour just didn't materialize yet. ;)
14:50:42 <tomlurge> No, thanks, I have nothing to add right now.
14:50:47 <virgil> karsten: not at that moment.  Just working with SeanSaito on Roster.
14:50:47 <karsten> ok
14:51:20 <karsten> ok. I think I'll take the task Sebastian just suggested. unless somebody else really wants it?
14:52:21 <karsten> 3-2-1-sold
14:52:22 <Sebastian> Is there just one other open task?
14:52:35 <karsten> please suggest more.
14:52:49 <Sebastian> I meant one that I might pick :)
14:53:30 <Sebastian> ok, time for me to start breaking gabelmoo
14:53:32 <karsten> yep, just that one.
14:53:45 <Sebastian> if any *other* tasks materialize ping me and I'll take a look :)
14:53:46 <karsten> I'll think about more tasks this week.
14:53:50 <weasel> Sebastian: wait 6 more minutes?
14:54:14 <karsten> virgil, SeanSaito: anything we should talk about wrt roster?
14:54:27 <Sebastian> weasel: no worries at all, first step is looking at the new physical place that I'll carry the box to soon etc. I'm well aware of the timing constraints
14:54:50 <SeanSaito> karsten: nope
14:54:55 <karsten> SeanSaito: I'm going to deploy the onionoo branch on onionoo.thecthulhu.com tonight.
14:55:04 <karsten> #16750
14:55:05 <SeanSaito> I've been working on slimming down the tor t-shirt script
14:55:18 <karsten> cool!
14:55:23 <Sebastian> SeanSaito: are you working with Juris?
14:55:24 <SeanSaito> because currently it's a bit memory-heavy
14:55:38 <Sebastian> juris and you and I should figure out something for this :)
14:55:41 <SeanSaito> no, but I could talk to him!
14:55:49 <karsten> ah, let me give more context here.
14:55:52 <Sebastian> to make sure the tool is good for him, too
14:55:58 <SeanSaito> And thanks for the deploy
14:56:00 * Sebastian reading backlog later
14:56:07 <karsten> I asked SeanSaito to add a badge for whether a relay operator should have a t-shirt to roster.
14:56:22 <SeanSaito> Sebastian: right, will do
14:57:22 <virgil> I don't have anything more to add
14:57:47 <karsten> SeanSaito, Sebastian: let me know if I should help make introductions or give (even) more context.
14:58:19 <karsten> virgil: ok.
14:58:37 <karsten> sounds like we're done for today.
14:58:50 <karsten> let's meet again in one week. thanks for coming, everyone!
14:59:03 <karsten> #endmeeting