16:02:18 <isabela> #startmeeting sponsorO support&docs
16:02:18 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Apr 23 16:02:18 2015 UTC.  The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:02:18 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:02:22 <isabela> ok
16:02:40 <isabela> haven't seem you all in a while :)
16:02:47 <vmon> :)
16:02:49 <isabela> so is there anything here we need to check status for?
16:02:54 <isabela> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/b8qfmF0AVQ
16:03:15 <isabela> oi Envite
16:03:17 <isabela> we just started
16:03:22 <karsten> depends on the rest of the agenda.
16:03:23 <Envite> Hello Isabela
16:03:44 <isabela> I have one point for discussion that will probably be a long discussion
16:03:44 <karsten> it might be worthwhile to go through the list. what other things did you have in mind for today?
16:03:51 <isabela> yes
16:03:54 <isabela> 1. status check
16:04:04 <isabela> 2. life after sponsorO
16:04:07 <isabela> anything else?
16:04:40 <karsten> just one thing, but that can happen after the meeting:
16:04:48 <karsten> Phoul1: let's talk about help desk summary for feb.
16:04:52 <karsten> there, not adding to the agenda.
16:05:05 <Phoul1> I will get that published right after the meeting, sorry about that.
16:05:09 <sherief> like a status report?
16:05:16 <karsten> Phoul1: thanks!
16:05:38 <isabela> sherief: check in on the stuff listed here https://etherpad.mozilla.org/b8qfmF0AVQ
16:05:58 <karsten> what we did last time was a quick round of reports what people did.
16:06:18 <karsten> so, iterating over people, not over deliverables.
16:06:32 <isabela> sounds good, we can do that too
16:06:45 <isabela> I have an announcement :)
16:06:45 <sherief> I can start.
16:06:52 <sherief> after isabela
16:06:55 <isabela> me and karsten are working on the quarterly report for the sponsor
16:07:10 <isabela> is due EOM but we want to get it done EOW
16:07:27 <isabela> and we might ping you if we need more information or have questions
16:07:30 <isabela> thanks!
16:07:32 <isabela> <done>
16:07:44 <karsten> like the help desk summary for february.
16:07:49 <karsten> so, regarding the agenda,
16:08:03 <karsten> how about we do a round of reports this time and go through the list in the next meeting,
16:08:12 <karsten> because that's when april things should be done.
16:08:13 <isabela> sounds good
16:08:26 <isabela> sherief: do you want start?
16:08:31 <sherief> yes!
16:10:15 <sherief> I took all screenshots for the upcoming tb-manual https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4bzl61okthfczuz/AABLiyY03lnY1PiN2vIS3Z3_a?dl=0, emailed karsten my work on automating Tor Browser videos and wrote a doc about it: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/sponsors/SponsorO/TorBrowserVideos/Automation and finally wrote one more video script https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/sponsors/SponsorO/TorBrowserVideos#Howtobypassfirewalls
16:10:47 <sherief> tons of tickets etc..
16:11:08 <Phoul1> Sherief has been a champion with answering tickets. *hi5*
16:11:26 <karsten> sherief: great work on the automation thing there.
16:11:41 <karsten> really looking forward to it.
16:12:01 <sherief> Phoul1: Thanks. :)
16:12:15 <sherief> karsten: I hope it becomes of use when I start recording in may
16:12:27 <harmony> yes the screenshots were great as well
16:12:30 <sherief> I will try really hard to finish it before may
16:12:31 <harmony> hurrah for sherief :)
16:12:42 <isabela> \o/
16:13:15 <isabela> who can go next?
16:13:21 <Phoul1> I can
16:13:29 <isabela> alright!
16:13:31 <Phoul1> I have continued work on sponsor o curriculum, worksheets are partially finished, screenshots for torbrowser are finished and in git, worked on answering help-desk tickets, and worked on reaching out to people re: funding after sponsor O. Also, repaired the help-desk test HS again and fixed a number of our private bridges. Also reached out to local bridge operators to spin the help-desk up a few new pr
16:13:38 <Phoul1> ivate bridges, which will hopefully be available EOW.
16:13:56 * sherief gives everyone some virtual earl gray tea
16:13:57 <karsten> oh wow, plenty of things.
16:15:04 <karsten> be sure to start feedback rounds for the curriculum, worksheets, etc. in time to incoporate feedback.
16:15:19 <isabela> nice! thanks for reaching out to local bridge operators
16:15:22 <Phoul1> Yup! They should be done with lots of tie forfeedback.
16:15:23 <Phoul1> time*
16:15:40 <karsten> great!
16:16:01 <isabela> alright, who's next?
16:16:08 <Envite> Me
16:16:13 <Envite> I'ts easy
16:16:21 <Envite> just working on tickets the past two weeks
16:16:38 <Envite> --End of Report--
16:16:41 <karsten> what languages?
16:16:58 <Envite> spanish, italian and portuguese, bot the last two are unofficial
16:17:16 <Envite> *but
16:17:17 <karsten> ah, so I wonder, where are they listed in the summary?
16:17:24 <karsten> are they under "en"?
16:17:27 <Envite> spanish queue
16:17:37 <Envite> I have there the templates for them
16:17:38 <karsten> italian and porguguese, too? ok.
16:17:44 <karsten> portuguese even
16:17:49 <isabela> #clandestinolanguages
16:18:03 <karsten> ok.
16:18:31 <isabela> great!
16:18:43 <isabela> who is missing? harmony ?
16:18:57 <harmony> hello
16:19:01 <isabela> :)
16:19:18 <harmony> only sponsorO thing i did last 2 weeks is the report info
16:19:44 <harmony> dcf and gk gave feedback on the manual, which i'll incorporate along with sherief's screenshots before the end of the week
16:20:20 <isabela> tx for the report info / that is super helpful
16:20:30 <harmony> i emailed vmon about farsi support, he replied, i need to reply to his reply
16:20:31 <karsten> +1
16:20:41 <isabela> heh
16:20:50 <isabela> cool, anyone else?
16:20:51 <harmony> i can upload the report thing to trac if there is a ticket?
16:20:54 <harmony> we did that last time
16:20:59 <isabela> (sorry)
16:21:00 <harmony> <end of status>
16:21:02 <karsten> no need to.
16:21:05 * vmon me
16:21:05 <harmony> ok
16:21:08 <karsten> it's already in the doc.
16:21:18 <isabela> vmon: go for it
16:21:35 <vmon> I tried to keep the reply time for farsi ticket under 48 hours
16:21:42 <vmon> I think I succeeded
16:22:13 <vmon> I think they are blocking the bridges, so there lots of ticket which get resolve by just telling them how to get a bridge
16:22:54 <vmon> I also checked few bridges and pluggable transport to see if they work in iran, speed check, if they trottling ssl, stuff like that
16:23:02 <vmon> <end of status>
16:23:35 <isabela> this is good intel
16:23:36 <Phoul1> vmon: Mind if I touch base with you about the last point after the meeting
16:23:41 <Phoul1> ?*
16:23:49 <vmon> Phoul1: sure :)
16:24:10 <mrphs> vmon: what's the second most request you get these days, beside bridges?
16:24:37 <vmon> after being block (because the bridge is blocked)?
16:24:56 <mrphs> yeah
16:25:00 <isabela> vmon: do you coordinate this intel of user need with our tweets in farsi?
16:25:41 <isabela> i.e. tweet more about bridges if that is solving most of users support requests
16:25:42 <vmon> mrphs: I think there are quite few who put the bridge in the proxy field and then I think why is it so slow
16:26:09 <vmon> isabela: I didn't know the route to the twitter
16:26:19 <vmon> I should ask mrphs?
16:26:21 <isabela> yes
16:26:24 <mrphs> isabela: i do the tweets. based on this intel
16:26:30 <isabela> mrphs: cool!
16:26:49 <vmon> mrphs: I'll send you weekly update then
16:27:02 <isabela> vmon: send whenever you see a trend
16:27:09 <mrphs> yes please :)
16:27:18 <vmon> deal!
16:27:29 <isabela> alright!
16:27:42 <isabela> any more status update?
16:27:49 <mrphs> I'm mostly tweeting about bridges and gettor these days. since accessiblity has always been the problem for farsi speaking users
16:28:02 <mrphs> but yes more intel would def be more helpful
16:28:48 <vmon> mrphs: the gettor link download drops in the middle for some users, I have been sending them mirrors instead when they reach to us
16:29:18 <mrphs> interesting!
16:29:22 <mrphs> ilv: ^
16:30:22 <vmon> it could be that they are not kind either to tls or dropbox (sorry to hijacking the meeting)
16:30:28 <isabela> hehehe
16:30:50 <isabela> np, you now know you should chat about it :)
16:30:53 <isabela> lets continue
16:31:17 <isabela> am I missing anyone?
16:31:23 <isabela> or can we move to discussion?
16:31:38 <karsten> let's move to discussion, I'd say.
16:31:41 <isabela> ok
16:31:46 <Envite> point one!
16:32:08 <Envite> Isbela: please write "on oftc" when telling us to meet
16:32:25 <Envite> I use to enter first on freenode and then I realize it's almost empty!
16:32:26 <isabela> so really quick - you saw my email. I want this to be a little bit of a brainstorm meeting. I will then put together the notes in a pad in a format we can evolve to become our 'plan'
16:32:30 <isabela> if that sounds reasonable
16:32:49 <karsten> Envite: did we ever meet somewhere else than oftc? :)
16:32:50 <isabela> Envite: yes!
16:32:55 <isabela> hehe
16:32:58 <sherief> Envite: all tpo channels are on oftc
16:33:03 <sherief> been like that since forever :)
16:33:13 <Envite> true enough, but not all my channels are!
16:33:25 <Envite> not my only project
16:33:36 <isabela> ok / floor is open!
16:33:42 <isabela> lets talk
16:34:21 <isabela> does anyone has comments or questions about my email?
16:35:30 <mrphs> was it sent to -dev?
16:35:49 <isabela> no, just the support folks
16:35:52 <sherief> mrphs: [Bi-Weekly meeting Thursday April 23]
16:36:42 <mrphs> i didn't get that email
16:37:03 <sherief> isabela: it was only sent yesterday, can you give us a chance to think about what should we be saying?
16:37:43 <isabela> of course
16:37:44 <karsten> mrphs: it has you in the To: line.
16:37:53 <isabela> sorry for that
16:38:29 <Envite> "How we want Support to be", you wrote
16:39:17 <sherief> The model Apple uses isn't bad. The have a knowledge base for everything and their support section is based on sections
16:39:28 <sherief> they don't throw all the information at you like we do in the faq
16:39:31 <Envite> I want it to be with the Desk as second step, and a first step of self-support with a truly useful FAQ (or Frequently Happeing Issues) webpage
16:39:36 <sherief> that can be overwhelming
16:39:59 <Envite> and translated!
16:40:47 <Envite> I agree with Sherief in that a big FAQ like current one is not useful for the simple user for which "this shit doesn't connect and I do not understand why at all"
16:40:54 <Phoul1> Improving the FAQ would be helpful, and transling it it. As far as accepting volunteers goes, we need to define a proper process for accepting people / determining if they will provide support in a safe way. The last part is the most important.
16:40:59 <sherief> Our docs should like like this imo: http://www.apple.com/support/mac-apps/messages/
16:41:04 <Phoul1> (sorry for typos, on a huge delay)
16:41:13 <isabela> yes, at twitter we created it based on metrics / kind of the convo we were having about tweeting the intel from users
16:42:01 <karsten> Phoul1: what do you think how long does it take to get a new volunteer up to speed?
16:42:12 <karsten> Phoul1: or is it more the trust aspect that needs time?
16:42:21 <Phoul1> we havent done it for the help-desk, so its hard to say. The trust part is the hardest.
16:42:41 <sherief> karsten: trust doesn't matter if we have a reviewer to check things
16:42:51 <isabela> also, a 'smart form' that based on the answer, the user request would be tagged with the template to answer it tag
16:42:55 <karsten> because users include sensitive information in their requests, or because we're worried that they give false advice, or?
16:42:59 <Phoul1> For RT it does, as we cant have people reviewing every ticket.
16:43:08 <Phoul1> karsten: all of the above.
16:43:15 <sherief> Ah I mean for translations and documentation
16:43:25 <karsten> sherief: ah, I meant support.
16:43:47 <karsten> so, having people review every ticket would not solve all problems.
16:43:53 <Envite> trust can be based in the GnuPG model
16:43:54 <Phoul1> Ideally the volunteers woul dbe people whove been around for a while, so the trust issue is less of a problem.
16:44:09 <Envite> if so many core people trust somebody, she is trustable
16:44:29 <Phoul1> Envite: That would work, but it still requires us to be dealing with people who are established in the community already.
16:44:42 <Envite> like Phoul says: use already involved people
16:44:47 <harmony> Phoul1: are there going to be enough of those people?
16:44:48 <Envite> yes!
16:45:06 * isabela wonders if we can use something like secure drop system for gpg support
16:45:10 <Phoul1> harmony: So far, I would say likely not.
16:45:14 <karsten> how about a support assistant marks a request as safe to be handled by volunteers and replies as good to be sent back?
16:45:34 <karsten> quite some work, but could help with trust building.
16:45:42 <Phoul1> RT doesnt really offer a good way to do that. Can investigate though.
16:45:49 <karsten> because otherwise it might be difficult to get new people if you don't let them do support.
16:45:54 <Envite> that would be like what I'm creating with ciara
16:46:09 <Envite> (Ciara is the new italian girl I hired)
16:46:38 <Envite> I get the issues, extract the text and put them in an encrypted message for her to translate
16:46:51 <karsten> alternatively, take people who have established some reputation on stackexchange.
16:46:52 <Envite> nex step will be "...for her to answer in tha same language"
16:47:44 <Phoul1> Envite: While that would work, its not really sustainable for something like the English queue. Sending the ticket to someone else, and being the MITM for requests would take longer than answering most things ourselves.
16:47:51 <Phoul1> Although it does help with trust building.
16:48:06 <karsten> it's like mentoring.
16:48:26 <karsten> of course it's more work at first, but it may be less work long-term.
16:48:39 <isabela> we should create an 'onboarding' process for volunteers so we can scale / that can go up on the 'trust level' as the person builds a relationship with us
16:48:53 <karsten> sounds good.
16:49:00 <Envite> Think about trust on ME
16:49:12 <karsten> ME?
16:49:13 <Phoul1> I would be willing to work on that plan with teh support team.
16:49:15 <Envite> It was based on a single interview with Runa and a signed contract
16:49:22 <Envite> ME=Envite
16:49:25 <karsten> ah!
16:49:44 <isabela> Phoul1: that sounds great!
16:49:45 <Envite> Whe should be picky but maybe not too much
16:49:51 <Phoul1> Envite: Yup, it was the same for all of us. When I started volunteers I was just given access to RT. however, I had ben around doing QA and other things for 6ish months.
16:49:58 <Phoul1> volunteering*
16:50:12 <mrphs> i think we should somehow create an interactive faq based on the emails we get in support.
16:50:18 <mrphs> something like what zendesk does
16:50:29 <mrphs> twitter is also similar i think.
16:50:32 <Envite> I did not do volunteering before, I was just fully set up when I signed first contract
16:50:48 <isabela> mrphs: yes, i worked on that for twitter and could help
16:51:03 <karsten> interactive how?
16:51:16 <isabela> based on the answer you give to a question
16:51:48 <isabela> also, you build that based on the metrics coming from support requests
16:51:49 <mrphs> karsten: https://support.twitter.com/
16:51:53 <isabela> like the intel from vmon
16:53:00 <mrphs> based on the number of question we get (the articles used in RT)
16:53:07 <karsten> ok.
16:53:11 <Phoul1> Envite: Right, sorry, I shouldnt have have added the last bit about me. Most of the support team just got a contract and started.
16:53:47 <harmony> if there's any way that any of these faq/interactive help suggestions can be folded into the browser manual (preview at tb-manual.tpo) then please do let me know
16:53:52 <karsten> sounds like a potentially non-trivial task to make the faq better in such a way.
16:54:14 <Phoul1> Improving the FAQ based on the help-desk stats shouldnt be that hard, at least.
16:54:33 <mrphs> we should move towards automating that process tho
16:54:50 <karsten> agreed. though a first manual round might not hurt.
16:54:52 <harmony> rather than start yet another documentation project
16:54:53 <mrphs> like exporting the number of one article is being uses and link it to an FAQ
16:54:55 <Envite> First FAQ question should be "Which info does the Help Desk need in order to help me?"
16:55:23 <Envite> I receive tons of tickets with just a log, or just "It doesn't connect"
16:55:44 <karsten> ah, different question: what fraction of requests in the en queue is from people whose first language is not en and who should rather ask on another queue?
16:55:57 <mrphs> a little while ago, I asked if we can publish the RT articles which are basically the template answers somewhere on the site
16:56:00 <karsten> regarding the help desk summary.
16:56:07 <isabela> mrphs: +1 to automation
16:56:20 <vmon> Envite: on that note can't we make the sending tor log to RT somehow automatic? Like when firefox crashes?
16:56:34 <Phoul1> karsten: Sorry, not sure I follow. When people send mail to -en and its the wrong language, we just switch the queue its in.
16:56:48 <karsten> Phoul1: ah, and that ticket is then counted for that other language?
16:56:56 <Phoul1> yup
16:57:05 <Envite> vmon: that would mean tons of useless tickets, and at the same time people for which tor works but does not crash helpless
16:57:08 <mrphs> vmon: and they'd be sending that info on clear net? about tor not working?
16:57:09 <karsten> Phoul1: I just wonder if those people know that those other queues exist.
16:57:29 <Phoul1> When they get a reply, it comes from the address of the other queue.
16:57:30 <karsten> Phoul1: maybe they speak Bad English, get some support, and carry on.
16:57:37 <vmon> mrphs: but they are doing it already
16:58:11 <Envite> at least spanish version string was translated and modified in transifex to switch to help-es@
16:58:22 <mrphs> vmon: sending it over gmail is much safer than clear internet for cases like iran or china
16:58:27 <vmon> it is just that they send an empty email, then I say what's up then they send anoter email, I can't connect, then I say send the log, after that is when I can do something intelligent with their problem
16:58:40 <Envite> so people with the spanish version of tbb reads directly the localized queue addresss
16:58:52 <karsten> Envite: ok.
16:58:53 <isabela> [We should think of the top of the funnel as well / how people know we have support for all the langauges we do? how they get to our FAQ? What we can do for outreach/awareness]
16:58:58 <vmon> mrphs: no I didn't say send it in clear, but if it can open the default email client
16:59:19 <vmon> with the log in it. Like the ticket we used to get for Orbot
16:59:38 <mrphs> vmon: a good support platform would give them the answer before they really need to reach out to a human
16:59:39 <harmony> isabela: the language addresses are listed on the contact page
16:59:49 <karsten> mrphs: +1
17:00:33 <Envite> We could modify the actual string of "write to help@" to "See the Support page at and write to help@"
17:00:53 <mrphs> vmon: so my point is, if we wanna put our brains into making things automated. we should automate them in the right direction :)
17:00:59 <vmon> mrphs: yes, that is good too. You just send an automatic reply, "you question is in the queue, meanwhile, please send the log if you have connection problem"
17:01:08 <isabela> harmony: I was thinking of things like localizing the site, more tweets in different languages, more publicity on support (kate could help)
17:01:26 <Phoul1> Changing the automated message to ask for the right information is something that we could easily do.
17:01:27 <harmony> isabela: oh i see
17:01:28 <isabela> this work is direct connected with growing tor users
17:01:49 <harmony> Phoul1: i wrote some text for exactly this but it never went anywhere, i can dig it up again if you like
17:02:06 <Phoul1> harmony: Sure, send me a copy and I will work on getting that added.
17:02:41 <karsten> so, are templates public?
17:02:45 <Phoul1> yes
17:02:56 <karsten> ok.
17:02:57 <Envite> yes, but I'll need to modify mine
17:03:14 <mrphs> no they're not. I mean it depends what you mean by public!
17:03:15 <Envite> I use templates with signatures in portuguese and italian!
17:03:16 <Phoul1> https://people.torproject.org/~colin/rt-articles.git/
17:03:23 <Phoul1> mrphs: I mean, they are in a public git.
17:03:41 <karsten> Phoul1: would it make sense to move that to git.tp.o?
17:04:03 <Phoul1> We could, I just basically mirrored what Lunar^ had going. I have no issue with moving it though.
17:04:08 <karsten> and include other languages?
17:04:35 <Phoul1> other languages are in the git.
17:04:40 <karsten> ok.
17:04:47 <isabela> <<ALERT it has been 1hr meeting>> (as a facilitator I need to say these things)
17:04:54 <Phoul1> If they are not saved in RT itself, they are not there. But if they are, they are in git.
17:04:55 <karsten> true, isabela!
17:05:02 <mrphs> (oh a side note about artciles, i just noticed the monthly help-desk report doesnt include articles from other languages)
17:05:07 <harmony> Phoul1: sent. it may not be useful but if it is, great
17:05:48 <Phoul1> The help-desk report includes the most used articles. Which will be skewed towards english. Could do a better breakdown of articles by queue possibly.
17:05:57 <karsten> isabela: what's the timeline for this future-of-support discussion?
17:06:36 <isabela> I dont want to cut the conversation / but this is a lot of great things that can build our plan. I will put this on a pad you are welcome to continue talking here :)
17:07:15 <isabela> I will share this pad probably mid next week (a lot going on) but you all have the notes and can continue brainstorming ideas
17:07:18 <isabela> sounds ok?
17:07:25 <Envite> ok
17:07:31 <Envite> I'm leaving now
17:07:35 <Phoul1> sounds good to me. We also have meetbot iirc.
17:07:35 <karsten> should we do the next meeting in a week?
17:07:39 <Envite> thanks, Isabela, and thanks all
17:07:42 <karsten> to speed up this process?
17:07:49 <Phoul1> karsten: That sounds like a good idea.
17:07:51 <isabela> Phoul1: yes that is what I meant by notes
17:08:12 <isabela> karsten: +1
17:08:15 <mrphs> mind if I ask to cc -assistants in next round of emails please?
17:08:26 <isabela> mrphs: np
17:08:36 <karsten> okay, great!
17:08:47 <isabela> #stopmeeting
17:08:50 <isabela> fail
17:09:01 <Phoul1> isabela: For future emails to support people, would you like me to whitelist your address on the support ML? Then you can email that instead of CCing everyone.
17:09:20 <mrphs> Phoul1: I object that.
17:09:31 <isabela> #endmeeting