18:30:48 <sysrqb> #startmeeting Tor Browser Team Meeting 9 March 2020
18:30:48 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Mar  9 18:30:48 2020 UTC.  The chair is sysrqb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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18:30:53 <sysrqb> Hello everyone
18:31:01 <pili> hi
18:31:05 <mcs> hi
18:31:11 <boklm> hi
18:31:21 <brade> o/
18:31:35 <sysrqb> acat: ping
18:31:41 <acat> hi
18:31:48 <sysrqb> hey
18:32:50 <pospeselr> hi
18:34:05 <sysrqb> GeKo: thanks for pinging digicert and requesting the new cert
18:34:18 <sisbell> hi
18:34:31 <antonela> hello!
18:34:38 <sysrqb> o/
18:35:56 <sysrqb> boklm: brade/pili/mcs and I talked about the quilt idea earlier today
18:36:01 <sysrqb> i'd like to have a meeting about this
18:36:11 <sysrqb> so that everyone understands the new process
18:36:15 <sysrqb> and we're comfortable with it
18:36:26 <sysrqb> or, if someone else knows of another/better/different process
18:36:30 <sysrqb> then we can discuss that
18:36:44 <sysrqb> i think we can continue using git branches in the short term
18:37:04 <sysrqb> when #33533 is done
18:37:09 <boklm> ok
18:37:36 <sysrqb> but I assume we'll want the-new-thing within the next few weeks
18:37:48 <sysrqb> , maybe mid-April (?)
18:38:51 <sysrqb> so i was thinking about scheduling a meeting about this "soon"
18:39:10 <sysrqb> probably after we have a week without a new release :/
18:40:56 <sysrqb> i don't see anyone bolding/tagging any items for discussion
18:41:02 <sysrqb> so i'll move onto the discussion section
18:41:10 <sysrqb> and it seems like they're all mine
18:41:19 <sysrqb> so i guess I'll start
18:42:02 <sysrqb> 1) GeKo has been working on backporting Firefox's RLBox patches to esr68
18:42:08 <boklm> before this meeting, I think I can start some proposal listing the process for how most common operations are done (how to work on a new patch, how to update an existing patch, etc ...)
18:42:16 <sysrqb> Mozilla received some good press attention about this
18:42:33 <sysrqb> boklm: that would be excellent, thanks
18:42:39 <sysrqb> (yes please)
18:42:39 <mcs> +1
18:43:49 <antonela> very nice boklm
18:43:56 <sysrqb> Geko backported the Linux patches for RLBox, and they are currently in review
18:44:09 <sysrqb> the plan is that this bakes in nightly for a while
18:44:14 <sysrqb> (maybe forever)
18:44:25 <sysrqb> until we migrate onto the release train
18:44:38 <sysrqb> where these patches already exist
18:45:25 <sysrqb> unfortunately, I know we're all loaded with other tickets
18:45:40 <sysrqb> and i don't know if anyone can review GeKo
18:45:44 <sysrqb> s's branches
18:46:03 <sysrqb> does anyone want to volunteer to take a look at them?
18:46:19 <boklm> I started looking at it, I can continue reviewing them
18:46:20 <sysrqb> this would lower priority than s27 and migration tasks/tickets
18:47:04 <pospeselr> i can add it to my queue after the remaining s27 work and the release notes/patches review
18:47:15 <sysrqb> boklm: thanks. yeah, i didn't want you to be the only person
18:47:22 <sysrqb> because I know you have other items on your plate, too
18:47:33 <sysrqb> pospeselr: thanks
18:47:52 <sysrqb> i'm sure we'll get to it eventually, but I also don't want GeKo's work going to waste
18:48:14 <sysrqb> and because it is only going into night, the patches shouldn't require too much review
18:48:20 <sysrqb> nightly
18:48:36 <sysrqb> but, at the same time, we shouldn't commit them without review
18:48:59 <pospeselr> is there a ticket associated with GeKo's work?
18:48:59 <sysrqb> okay, next tiem on my list
18:49:07 <sysrqb> pospeselr: yes, a few
18:49:10 <sysrqb> one sec
18:49:51 <boklm> #32379 is the top ticket
18:49:53 <sysrqb> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/32379
18:50:00 <sysrqb> heh. you beat me.
18:50:31 <sysrqb> some of the child tickets (and child-tickets-of-child-tickets) are in review
18:51:34 <sysrqb> the next item i have is supporting Android Tor Browser
18:51:50 <sysrqb> currently only sisbell and I are "android developers"
18:52:15 <sysrqb> and the time i have available for this some weeks is very small
18:52:33 <sysrqb> we knew this would happen when I stepped into team lead
18:53:09 <sysrqb> and one idea we had was asking if anyone else on the team would like to start helping with this area of the browser
18:53:13 <sisbell> Yes and the number of issues is increasing with the new Fenix support
18:53:23 <sysrqb> in reality, this question is mostly for acat  and pospeselr :)
18:53:26 <acat> i'd be glad to help
18:53:42 <pospeselr> yeah same
18:53:42 <sysrqb> awesome, thanks acat
18:53:52 <sysrqb> woah. double-win
18:53:58 <antonela> :3
18:54:15 <mcs> we have a very helpful team today
18:54:17 <mcs> :)
18:54:29 <sysrqb> eventually we'll hire another android developer, but i don't see that happening within the next 6 months
18:54:39 <sysrqb> and we have a lot of development coming soon
18:54:43 <sysrqb> so, thank you :)
18:55:26 <acat> :)
18:55:30 <sysrqb> okay, i want to update our documentation for how we develop/hack on android
18:55:41 <sysrqb> of course, this is all changing with the move to fenix
18:56:03 <sysrqb> but i think having documentation for both browsers will be helpful
18:56:23 <sysrqb> and we haven't started developing on top of fenix, yet
18:56:45 <sysrqb> so maybe both of you will help write the initial fenix documentation :)
18:57:11 <sisbell> Fenix work just started so its the best time to jump in
18:57:16 <sysrqb> yep
18:57:33 <sisbell> Just ping me with any questions to get started
18:58:16 <sysrqb> okay, next item.  Release Schedule
18:58:25 <sysrqb> specifically, this is for the alpha releases
18:59:06 <sysrqb> we trialed relasing alpha updates on a two week cycle over hte last month
18:59:34 <sysrqb> it was a good learning experience
19:00:02 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> (sorry I'm late today, schedule was messed up here -- nothing for me to bring up today, but I'm here now and lurking)
19:00:08 <sysrqb> but i think we'll return to the regular 4 week release cycle for the next month
19:01:15 <sysrqb> 9.5a6 was broken for non-en-US locales
19:01:15 <sysrqb> and that forced another update
19:01:24 <sysrqb> which meant we'll have a release every week for the last three weeks
19:01:39 <sysrqb> plus, we may have (and mostly likely will have) another release next week
19:01:42 <sysrqb> due to pwn2own
19:02:00 <sysrqb> and one release every week is exhausting
19:02:13 <brade> +1
19:02:25 <boklm> +1
19:02:26 <sysrqb> and it takes away a lot of time from everything else
19:02:36 <sysrqb> so, let's stop that for now
19:02:53 <sysrqb> and we can think about it later this year, if that makes sense
19:03:58 <sysrqb> okay, next item. Team meeting time
19:04:09 <sysrqb> this is a two part question
19:04:57 <sysrqb> 1) is this time still good for everyone?
19:05:16 <sysrqb> i should clarify
19:05:52 <sysrqb> usually, during DST, we meet at 17:30 UTC
19:06:06 <sysrqb> (Summer time)
19:06:20 <pospeselr> yeah works for me
19:06:21 <sysrqb> and 18:30 UTC (during Nov-Mar)
19:06:29 <sysrqb> is this still a good time for everyone?
19:06:39 <sysrqb> should we consdier changing our meeting time?
19:06:57 <sisbell> It works for me
19:06:57 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> I have a weak preference for 18:30, but 17:30 will be fine for me, and I assume you all have a good reason for going with 17:30
19:07:00 <sysrqb> would it be better moving our meeting 30 min later?
19:07:31 <sisbell> I'm flexible on bumping 30 minutes as well
19:07:42 <sysrqb> Jeremy_Rand_Talos_: we move to 17:30 UTC so that it remains at the same local time after the DST switch
19:08:14 <boklm> both 17:30 and 18:00 UTC are fine for me
19:08:22 <acat> same
19:08:33 <sysrqb> we initially moved from 19:00 to 18:30 because i had a conflict at 19:30. i don't have that conflict anymore
19:08:39 <antonela> 18 UTC is ideal for me
19:08:40 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> sysrqb, I figured as much.  I tend to prefer later in the afternoon U.S. time, but again my preference is weak and I assume everyone else here has more schedule constraints than I do
19:08:47 <sysrqb> so i'm happy adjusting the meeting time if that makes sense
19:09:11 <sysrqb> i'm also happy keeping the meeting time if it doesn't affect anyone
19:09:15 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> 18:00 UTC sounds great to me FWIW
19:10:11 <sysrqb> okay
19:10:42 <pili> I think in general all work for me, I have a slight preference for 19UTC during dst and 18UTC during summer time
19:10:44 <sysrqb> antonela: i know this will be annoying for you :/
19:10:56 <sysrqb> that was going to be my question
19:11:36 <sysrqb> when do we use 18UTC Mar-Nov or Nov-Mar
19:11:41 <pili> as in, a bit later than now is generally better for me unless we want to go earlier and do 17UTC during dst and 16UTC during summer time ;)
19:11:47 <sysrqb> where there is some overlap in those months
19:11:56 <pili> (sorry to make things more confusing)
19:11:59 <antonela> i like 18UTC the entire year :)
19:12:06 <sysrqb> antonela: i assumed that :)
19:12:22 <sysrqb> but that is because you live in a reasonable country
19:12:30 <sysrqb> where you don't change timezone mid-year
19:12:32 <antonela> well
19:12:47 <sysrqb> reasonable in one way? :)
19:12:53 <antonela> :)
19:12:56 <brade> go with 18:00UTC until we discuss again in October?
19:13:26 <pili> fine with me
19:13:45 <sysrqb> good. okay, let's try that
19:13:52 <sysrqb> i'll update the wiki page and send an email
19:13:53 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> +1
19:14:12 <sisbell> sounds good
19:14:29 <sysrqb> okay, final item on my list
19:14:54 <sysrqb> considering we don't know the next time we'll physically be in the same place
19:15:10 <sysrqb> we should schedule a virtual/remote retrospective
19:15:34 <sysrqb> pili/brade/mcs and I are thinking about schedule it at the end of this month
19:15:49 <sysrqb> and then we'll try having a retrospective (roughly) every quarter
19:16:18 <sysrqb> I like the idea of using video or voice for this
19:16:46 <sysrqb> but i am a native english speaker, so i don't want to make that decision unless everyone is comfortable with it
19:17:24 <sysrqb> we can use a private irc channel, if that will allow everyone to particpate
19:17:30 <sysrqb> *participate
19:17:42 <sysrqb> this isn't a decision we must make now
19:17:54 <antonela> +1 for video/voice
19:17:56 <sysrqb> we can decide on a day/time first
19:17:59 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> What voice/video software would be likely to be used?
19:18:11 <sysrqb> but this is sometime everyone should think about, too
19:18:29 <sysrqb> pili: i don't think we decided, but did you want to send out an email for it or should i?
19:18:38 * Jeremy_Rand_Talos_ is probably fine with voice; video is more difficult for me due to webcam compatibility issues that I haven't had time to investigate yet
19:18:42 <pili> I can do it :)
19:18:50 <sysrqb> thanks :)
19:19:11 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> Maybe this'll be a good excuse for me to debug my webcam though
19:19:12 <sysrqb> Jeremy_Rand_Talos_: probably jitsi, if i had to take a guess now
19:19:14 <pili> I guess I'll send out a doodle
19:19:22 <pili> sysrqb: Jeremy_Rand_Talos_  I'd also guess jitsi
19:19:36 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> sysrqb, Jitsi the desktop client or Jitsi Meet the web client?
19:19:42 <sysrqb> ah, meet
19:19:43 <sysrqb> sorry
19:20:03 <sysrqb> `alias jitsi="jitsi meet"`
19:20:28 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> sysrqb, ok.  Jitsi Meet is fine for me, I use it regularly.  I'll make an effort to fix my webcam setup; if I fail you'll at least get voice from my end
19:20:44 <mcs> please send some info on what we need to set up so I can try it out well before the meeting
19:21:29 <sysrqb> mcs: okay, will do
19:22:04 <sysrqb> i can see us being flexible, where some people may use their camera and voice, and other only voice
19:22:15 <sysrqb> and others only text (somewhere)
19:22:33 <sysrqb> but we can discuss any requirements
19:22:46 <pili> yup
19:23:29 <sysrqb> okay, i think this covers all of my discussion items
19:23:57 <sysrqb> do any of you want to bring discus anything else?
19:24:06 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> one quick inquiry
19:25:05 <sysrqb> yes? :)
19:25:06 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> Is there anything I can do on Namecoin's end to try to get some responses to the tor-talk thread I started?  I could maybe post on Namecoin's Reddit and Twitter asking for people to test it and share their feedback on tor-talk, but I'm not sure if that would bias the sample too much
19:26:03 <sysrqb> any testing is probably better than none
19:26:09 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> I've been hesitant to directly tell Namecoiners to post on tor-talk since I don't want to give the appearance of brigading, since Namecoin users are a fairly different set of users than Tor users
19:26:35 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> sysrqb, ok, I'll try posting on Namecoin's social media accounts and direct people to the tor-talk thread then, if that's okay with you
19:26:43 <sysrqb> we still don't have any plans for moving the integration out of nightly
19:27:02 <sysrqb> but any feedback will at least help you understand how well it works
19:27:12 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> right, and I assume one major reason for having no such plans is the total lack of feedback from average users
19:27:28 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos_> (presumably not the only reason, but I'm guessing it's one of them)
19:27:35 <sysrqb> yeah
19:27:59 <mcs> different topic: should we discuss #13410? what are the next steps with that ticket?
19:28:19 <sysrqb> pospeselr: ^
19:28:33 <sysrqb> we're nearly at 1 hour
19:28:56 <sysrqb> but we can find a time this week for making a decision about it
19:29:11 <pospeselr> tldr; implementing the  SOOC spec should be relatively straight forward and would solve 13410
19:29:11 <sysrqb> pospeselr: how much time do you think it needs?
19:29:18 <sysrqb> for the technical piece
19:29:21 <sysrqb> ignoring the political one
19:29:34 <pospeselr> i think about a week of focused dev work should take care of it
19:29:59 <pili> sysrqb: maybe during the S27 meeting :D
19:30:11 <pospeselr> esp now that i'm more familiar with the part of the codebase the new features would live
19:30:21 <sysrqb> pili: i thought about that, too, but i'm worried it could eat the entire meeting :/
19:30:26 <antonela> haha
19:30:38 <sysrqb> pili: and maybe we should invite alec and other interested people
19:30:43 <pili> :)
19:30:44 <pili> we ca leave it until the end :P
19:30:45 <sysrqb> so having a separate meeting may be smart
19:30:50 <sysrqb> haha
19:30:52 <pospeselr> probably a good idea
19:30:56 <pili> guests are always welcome on the S27 meetings :)
19:31:04 <pili> I don't mind though
19:32:01 <sysrqb> okay, i'll send an email about it and say we'll discuss it during the tomorrow's meeting
19:32:12 <sysrqb> and then we can schedule a follow-up meeting, if needed
19:32:44 <pili> I have a hard stop now, will read the backlog later if there's any more o/ :)
19:32:45 <pili> sounds good
19:32:48 <antonela> it'd be useful to have a list of political items to discuss, if that is what is missing to move forward
19:33:02 <sysrqb> pospeselr: can you put that together?
19:33:07 <sysrqb> pili: o/ thanks!
19:33:16 <sysrqb> pospeselr: you mentioned it in your comment on the ticket
19:33:41 <sysrqb> but maybe explaining the known issues/concerns, particularly related to uplift - if you know?
19:33:58 <pospeselr> true, that's the gist that I got from talking with alec
19:34:10 <pospeselr> from the discussions he apparently had with firefox people
19:34:14 <sysrqb> or maybe you don't know :)
19:34:19 <pospeselr> yeah that^
19:34:28 <sysrqb> okay
19:34:51 <sysrqb> hrm.
19:35:26 <sysrqb> oh, actually, pospeselr how do you feel about sending the email?
19:35:30 <sysrqb> to tbb-dev@?
19:35:37 <sysrqb> and summarizing the current situation?
19:35:46 <sysrqb> instead of my retelling your story
19:35:50 <pospeselr> yeah I can do that :)
19:35:55 <sysrqb> thank you :)
19:36:34 <sysrqb> just mention we'll discuss it tomorrow during the meeting, and peoplez are invited to come
19:36:42 <sysrqb> and we cain point alec at it
19:36:52 <sysrqb> *can
19:37:15 <sysrqb> okay, i think that concludes our meeting
19:37:18 <sysrqb> thanks everyone!
19:37:24 <sysrqb> #endmeeting