15:59:31 <donuts> #startmeeting UX Team Weekly Meeting
15:59:31 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Aug  9 15:59:31 2022 UTC.  The chair is donuts. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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15:59:32 <nicob> hi o/
15:59:33 <donuts> welcome welcome welcome
15:59:37 <donuts> the pad is here as always: https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-ux-team-2022-keep
15:59:55 <donuts> I hope everyone's well this week :D
15:59:57 <donuts> please take a moment to add anything you'd like to discuss today to the agenda
16:00:42 <donuts> as for announcements, 12.0a1 should be live very shortly – but I don't have a blog link yet
16:00:54 <championquizzer> nice!
16:01:00 <donuts> 12.0a won't be on ESR 102 for another release or two yet though
16:01:14 <donuts> so we can hold off doing another alpha recruitment blast until then
16:01:23 <donuts> because as always it was the potential to be quite buggy
16:02:05 <donuts> okay, please feel free to update your weekly planning sections too
16:02:25 <donuts> and also review the UX team kanban to ensure your tickets are in the right columns, and are assigned to the right folks :)
16:02:32 <donuts> https://gitlab.torproject.org/groups/tpo/-/boards?scope=all&label_name[]=UX%20Team
16:05:38 <nah> done
16:05:43 <championquizzer> same
16:05:52 <nicob> same
16:05:55 <donuts> great
16:06:20 <donuts> gimme 2 mins
16:07:19 <donuts> okay I'm good too
16:07:24 <donuts> nothing in bold today?
16:07:55 <donuts> let's hand over to championquizzer then :D
16:08:35 <championquizzer> i published the report for july last week but don't have many points to discuss as we have been more or less covering things in the weekly meetings :)
16:08:39 <championquizzer> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2022-August/003447.html
16:09:13 <donuts> great!
16:09:13 <championquizzer> i am noticing that with every major release we are seeing users on macOS < 10.12 report about the update :/
16:09:27 <championquizzer> sadly not a issue that can be fixed
16:09:56 <donuts> does TB/FF try to update despite it not being supported?
16:10:02 <championquizzer> yes
16:10:12 <donuts> oh, it would be nice if FF didn't do that
16:10:18 <championquizzer> that is what is prompting these user report i believe
16:10:41 <donuts> and then the update results in a broken browser?
16:10:49 <GeKo> that should be fixable on our side
16:11:12 <donuts> a wild GeKo appears
16:11:18 <GeKo> not really
16:11:21 <championquizzer> i believe it gives a msg similar to this: "unable to update. please download from our website"
16:11:22 <donuts> feels like an upstream thing though, no?
16:11:24 <GeKo> i am in a meeting :)
16:11:31 <donuts> aha :D
16:11:41 <GeKo> (not this one, though ;))
16:11:48 <championquizzer> (i am not exactly sure about the exact error message but can ask if that can be helpful :))
16:11:52 <donuts> technically you're in two meetings now
16:11:59 <GeKo> heh
16:12:09 <donuts> I wonder if there's anything on bugzilla, it would be worth doing a search for it
16:12:33 <donuts> i'm sure if we're getting plenty reports about it mozilla are too
16:12:43 <championquizzer> yes, very likely!
16:13:19 <GeKo> we should be able to take this into account when writing the update xml files
16:13:24 <GeKo> we did that in the past
16:13:40 <GeKo> there is e.g. a minSupportedOSVersion
16:13:56 <championquizzer> that sounds good! thanks GeKo!
16:14:17 <donuts> ahhh okay, good to know
16:14:31 <donuts> could you create a ticket in applications please championquizzer, and feel free to assign straight to richard?
16:14:52 <championquizzer> sure, will file a ticket after the meeting
16:14:58 <donuts> lovely, ty
16:15:16 <donuts> in other news, the devs and I talked about priority android issues yesterday
16:15:46 <donuts> fenix#40216, tor-browser#41087, tor-browser#41075, and HTTPS-Only Mode should all be getting attention soon
16:16:18 <championquizzer> awesome. let me know if I can be useful to gather feedback or something else
16:16:33 <donuts> Thanks! likewise if there's anything else you'd consider high priority pls let me know
16:17:00 <championquizzer> another quick thing, to follow up from our last week's discussion about bridge-moji
16:17:11 <championquizzer> i filed a ticket to gather feedback about the feature
16:17:15 <championquizzer> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/applications/tor-browser/-/issues/41093
16:17:50 <donuts> I saw! ty
16:18:18 <championquizzer> that's all the updates for this week :)
16:19:23 <donuts> identicons are a reasonable alternative
16:19:31 <donuts> we'd need to do a little work to make them accessible though
16:19:53 <donuts> robohash is a nope from me, lol
16:20:24 <donuts> I do like how _compact_ bridge-moji are though – and I think we try doing a better job of communicating their purpose first
16:20:29 <nicob> *searches robohash*
16:20:44 <donuts> however it's complicated by the fact that emoji can be inputted too
16:20:46 <nah> same, nicob lol
16:20:47 <donuts> like, technically speaking
16:20:50 <donuts> https://robohash.org/
16:21:18 <nicob> idk what i was expecting but it wasn't this
16:21:22 <donuts> lol
16:21:32 <donuts> there are various identicon projects too, you can find some of them on the wiki
16:21:33 <donuts> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identicon
16:21:47 <donuts> at some point arma linked to a similar effort to visualize hashes for something else
16:21:52 <donuts> that didn't use identicons
16:21:57 <donuts> maybe I bookmarked it?
16:21:59 <donuts> let's see...
16:22:37 <donuts> I didn't
16:22:42 <donuts> but did I link to it in the original ticket?
16:22:45 <donuts> let's also see...
16:23:06 <donuts> I did!
16:23:07 <donuts> https://github.com/mailpile/Mailpile/issues/1093
16:23:10 <donuts> it was mailpile
16:24:01 <arma2> yep, that was me. more generally i am dubious of the value of hash snowflake visualization things
16:24:10 <arma2> since you can't put that many bits in them, and humans can't distinguish that many bits anyway
16:24:14 <donuts> one added complication we had to work around with the bridge-moji (and which would be more pronounced with color-based alternatives) is Tor Browser's capacity for theming
16:24:18 <arma2> so "what is it for really" is the question to ask over and over
16:24:45 <donuts> arma2: yeah
16:24:59 <donuts> I agree
16:25:12 <arma2> great
16:26:15 <donuts> maybe some kind of syntax-esque highlighting of the IP addresses in the bridge lines could also be an option
16:26:36 <donuts> in different colors, I mean
16:26:51 <donuts> anyway, let's continue collecting feedback for now before we make any decisions here
16:27:10 <championquizzer> ack!
16:27:46 <donuts> ooo, one thing I should have put on the agenda:
16:27:49 <arma2> at the end, remember that i will ask "what is it for really" over and over :)
16:27:55 <donuts> arma2: upi
16:27:58 <donuts> wups
16:28:01 <donuts> *You're not the only person, lol
16:28:12 <arma2> sounds good
16:28:13 <nah> yep!
16:29:31 <donuts> The real answer is: "bridge lines in long lists are hard to distinguish between at a glance, and some kind of visual aid helps you do that"
16:29:41 <donuts> but we don't say that anywhere besides the manual, because it's kind of awkward to explain
16:29:58 <donuts> maybe it's tooltip time though
16:30:04 <arma2> "why do you need to distinguish them" followed closely by "why do you have such a long list of them"
16:30:11 <donuts> yesss exactly
16:30:29 <donuts> why do i even need the internet
16:30:31 <donuts> why do i exist
16:30:32 <donuts> etc.
16:30:35 <nah> lol
16:30:36 <nicob> lol
16:31:08 <donuts> I think I'm coming around to the idea that bridges kind of need their own onboarding
16:31:17 <donuts> maybe that's more of an option for the VPN though
16:32:26 <donuts> okay on that note, let's move on with the agenda...
16:32:44 <donuts> nicob you'll be pleased to note the release schedule is now up to date*
16:32:56 <nicob> yay! \o/
16:33:03 <donuts> * up to date means kind of made up, because we haven't got into the thick of the ESR update yet
16:33:12 <nicob> good enough for me
16:33:14 <donuts> ** also Firefox releases sometimes shift too, it seems
16:33:52 <donuts> there is an _extremely tentative_ release date for TB 12.0 too, although it's late enough that we should aim to launch the YEC in a late 11.5 release instead
16:34:27 <nicob> ah okay
16:34:28 <donuts> I think the tbc date for 12.0 is currently Nov 22nd, because any later than that and we're going to run into the holidays and struggle to fix bugs
16:34:37 <nicob> makes sense
16:35:10 <donuts> championquizzer: unfortunately ESR 91's EOL is September, which means we'll be backporting security fixes for a while
16:35:13 <donuts> it's... not ideal
16:35:29 <championquizzer> yep
16:36:19 <donuts> next year we'll aim to release 12.5 earlier, and then the devs can theoretically get started on the next ESR when the beta tags are available
16:36:22 <donuts> which was May-ish this year
16:36:40 <donuts> however, that still doesn't leave a lot of time before 102 EOLs
16:37:02 <donuts> so, I think we could also potentially take a look at the exact ESRs we're hopping on to
16:37:07 <donuts> but that's a decision for the devs to take
16:37:55 <donuts> any questions folks?
16:38:39 <championquizzer> ty for these updates donuts. is really helpful
16:38:49 <donuts> no problemo!
16:39:04 <nicob> yes ty donuts
16:39:05 <donuts> figured you may get some comments about it from eagle-eyed users :)
16:40:01 <donuts> part of the reason (in addition to 11.5's late release) is that we've had to divert dev resources to S131, which turned into a project very quickly and with short turnaround times
16:40:23 <donuts> however the S131 project will massively help us out in the long term
16:41:04 <donuts> okay I've done enough talking :)
16:41:14 <donuts> anything else that anyone would like to discuss today? or shall I close the meeting?
16:41:18 <donuts> oh
16:41:19 <donuts> WAIT
16:41:50 <donuts> we're also tentatively aiming to have ARM builds ready for 12.0
16:42:00 <donuts> I know we get comments about that a lot
16:42:02 <championquizzer> oh nice!
16:42:10 <donuts> I say tentatively, because it's been delayed time and time again
16:42:22 <donuts> but it's more seriously on the roadmap this time
16:42:49 <championquizzer> good to know \o/
16:42:54 <donuts> i'm sure apple users in particular will rejoice, especially if they get a shiny new MacOS compliant application icon too :D
16:43:48 <donuts> sneak peek: https://twitter.com/donutsrussell/status/1556660893169192964
16:44:13 <championquizzer> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/applications/tor-browser-build/-/issues/40158
16:44:16 <nicob> shiny new icons!
16:44:20 <championquizzer> is the tracking ticket, right?
16:44:30 <donuts> that's the one, yep
16:44:36 <donuts> note all the label shuffles lol
16:44:40 <nah> beautiful
16:45:35 <championquizzer> looks amazing
16:46:00 <donuts> let's call it for today
16:46:17 <donuts> please remind me that next week I want to talk about the September meetup
16:46:22 <donuts> because I'll forget
16:46:29 <donuts> thanks everyone! o/
16:46:31 <donuts> #endmeeting