15:58:53 <donuts> #startmeeting UX Team Weekly Meeting
15:58:53 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Jul  5 15:58:53 2022 UTC.  The chair is donuts. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:58:53 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:58:59 <donuts> hellooo, is anyone here this morning?
15:59:05 <championquizzer[m]> hello! o/
15:59:32 <nicob> hello o/
16:00:03 <nah> o
16:00:07 <nah> o/
16:00:51 <donuts> hello all ^^
16:01:10 <donuts> welcome back after hackweek, and the long weekend!
16:01:12 <donuts> pad is here, as usual: https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-ux-team-2022-keep
16:01:19 <donuts> please add anything you'd like to discuss to the agenda
16:02:34 <donuts> there were two unscheduled browser releases on Saturday to update Tor Browser to Tor 0.4.7.8
16:02:42 <donuts> otherwise that's it for announcements :D
16:03:09 <championquizzer[m]> great! last TB before 11.5 right? :)
16:03:29 <donuts> championquizzer[m]: hopefully, I need to check in with richard though
16:03:42 <championquizzer[m]> thanks
16:03:48 <donuts> while you're updating your weekly planning section, please make sure anything you're currently working is tagged as "UX Team" and "Q3"
16:03:59 <donuts> otherwise I can't see it on the board :<
16:04:18 <donuts> also, when moving a ticket from Q2 to Q3, you may remove the original "Q2" label too
16:04:26 <championquizzer[m]> donuts: when is 11.5 scheduled for release? (i ask because i have some follow up tasks with updating the support portal and other support docs)
16:05:12 * nicob is updating ticket labels
16:05:45 <donuts> <championquizzer[m]>: it was originally scheduled for this week, however the emergency release has thrown everything out of whack
16:05:51 <donuts> the schedule hasn't been updated either
16:06:03 <donuts> (this is what I need to check-in with richard about)
16:06:03 <championquizzer[m]> ah, i understand. no worries
16:06:18 <championquizzer[m]> thanks donuts
16:06:23 <donuts> championquizzer[m]: np, i'll let you know as soon as i know!
16:08:46 <donuts> how's everyone doing?
16:09:17 <nah> i'm alright
16:09:19 <nah> how are you?
16:09:48 <donuts> lol i'm good thank you, but i mean are you all done with the pad?
16:09:57 <nicob> lol i'm done with the pad
16:10:06 <nah> donuts, do you happen to know for when is schedulled the survey update?
16:10:09 <nah> hahah
16:10:27 <donuts> oh that's a good reminder to put that on my todo list
16:11:02 <nah> yeah, i have some active surveys for s9
16:11:19 <donuts> nah: timeline for the upgrade is here
16:11:20 <donuts> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/team/-/wikis/policy/tpa-rfc-26-limesurvey-upgrade
16:12:09 <donuts> I'm going to add this as a discussion item to the agenda
16:12:16 <donuts> let's check-in with championquizzer first
16:12:25 <donuts> championquizzer[m]*
16:12:25 <nah> ty
16:13:35 <championquizzer[m]> no major issues to highlight this week, but wanted to remind that we are ready with the documentation for 11.5 release :)
16:13:53 <championquizzer[m]> so pls review and let me know if any feedback!
16:14:05 <championquizzer[m]> https://championquizzer.pages.torproject.net/manual/
16:14:09 <championquizzer[m]> preview^^
16:14:19 <championquizzer[m]> ticket: https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/web/manual/-/issues/119
16:14:34 <donuts> great, that's an easy update!
16:15:09 <championquizzer[m]> ty!
16:15:24 <championquizzer[m]> the changes made are in the 'alpha' branch of the manual
16:15:34 <championquizzer[m]> so we will update to the main branch with the release
16:15:42 <donuts> lovely, ty championquizzer[m]!
16:16:00 <championquizzer[m]> and other places need an update too, i.e support portal, lots of support docs, etc.
16:16:23 <championquizzer[m]> i plan to do all this no later than one week from the stable release
16:16:42 <championquizzer[m]> ty, donuts
16:16:48 <championquizzer[m]> that's all from me :)
16:17:06 <donuts> okay let's talk limesurvey!
16:17:24 <donuts> as you all know we're upgrading limesurvey, which requires an entirely new instance being set up
16:17:38 <donuts> TPA are planning on migrating all existing survey structures, but I don't think this is necessary tbh
16:17:56 <donuts> we also have a number of recent surveys we'd like to preserve the data of
16:18:03 <donuts> is there anything else you like to add to the discussion nah?
16:18:24 <nah> well, i have some active surveys that is being used to collect training feedback in east africa
16:18:33 <donuts> aha well that's a problem
16:18:38 <nah> yes :/
16:18:39 <donuts> what's the duration of those?
16:18:53 <nah> so, this is uncertain
16:18:56 <nah> because the dates change
16:19:06 <donuts> we may need to ask TPA to extend this point in their timeline: "August 1st: old (LimeSurvey 3) instance shutdown"
16:19:20 <nah> it changed already - initially i thought we would be done before the migration
16:20:05 <donuts> do you have an estimate?
16:20:06 <nah> i'll check with ggus the date of the latest training
16:20:09 <donuts> okay thanks :)
16:20:12 <nah> and we can follow-up by email?
16:20:24 <nah> nice
16:20:29 <nah> thank you!
16:20:35 <donuts> sure thing, and I can follow up with TPA
16:20:58 <donuts> let's also review limesurvey and pick the survey's we'd like to preserve the structure and data of, while we're here – if that sounds good nah?
16:21:09 <nah> yes!
16:22:00 <donuts> great!
16:22:09 <donuts> I'm adding some space to the pad for this execrise...
16:23:26 <donuts> please feel free to add your surveys to the list nah
16:26:56 <donuts> btw nah, it looks like "Interview with The Tor Project" is still running
16:29:14 <nah> i got some problems with my password and i need to wait 10 min to enter limesurvey :S
16:29:19 <donuts> oh dear lol
16:29:24 <donuts> well let's finish this later then
16:29:38 <donuts> I'll wait until later today before I update the ticket
16:30:02 <donuts> in the meantime I'll move on with the agenda :)
16:30:03 <nah> ok! i'll let you know when i'm done at #tor-ux
16:30:16 <donuts> thanks nah!
16:30:24 <donuts> okay our kanban for Q3 is here: https://gitlab.torproject.org/groups/tpo/-/boards?label_name[]=UX%20Team&label_name[]=Q3
16:30:40 <donuts> actually, it's here: https://gitlab.torproject.org/groups/tpo/-/boards?label_name[]=UX%20Team
16:30:53 <donuts> all Q2 tickets should now be transferred over to Q3
16:31:31 <donuts> as a reminder, only tickets you're planning on actively working on in Q2 should be in the backlog, next or doing columns
16:32:08 <donuts> everything else should be in roadmap:future (for tickets planned in Q4) or the Icebox (for tickets with no planned start date or sponsor)
16:32:31 <donuts> if you spot anything still tagged as Q2, please remove the label
16:33:07 <nah> :thumbs-up:
16:33:29 <donuts> we've tried to be more conservative with the workload this time around, although I know there are many Q3 tasks that don't have tickets yet (e.g. the year end campaign 😬)
16:33:39 <donuts> okay that's the end of this public service announcement :)
16:33:44 <donuts> any questions from anyone?
16:34:32 <donuts> i'm heading none :D
16:34:37 <nicob> I'm good!
16:34:42 <donuts> last item on the agenda is: "Connect Assist test with a user in a restricted region"
16:34:51 <donuts> was this yours championquizzer[m]?
16:34:54 <nah> me
16:34:56 <donuts> oh!
16:34:59 <donuts> go for it nah :)
16:35:17 <nah> so i just wanted to share a testing we did last week with a user in a restricted region
16:35:24 <nah> they asked me to not share their location
16:35:33 <nah> and we actively tested connected assist
16:35:51 <nah> the user was able to download tor browser using one of the mirrors available
16:36:00 <nah> without the use of vpns
16:36:04 <donuts> nice
16:36:12 <nah> and when trying to connect
16:36:23 <championquizzer[m]> very nice! re. mirror was working
16:36:44 <nah> 1. it took tor browser exactly 1:30 min to identify that tor was blocked
16:36:58 <nah> 2. then, it took 3:30 to find a bridge
16:37:05 <donuts> v. slow
16:37:08 <nah> so, in total, it was 5 min to get the user connected
16:37:24 <donuts> was the participant ever tempted to cancel? did they ever express a concern that bootrapping may have frozen?
16:37:49 <nah> they were confused why it was taking too long to connect
16:37:53 <nah> so they went to preferences
16:38:07 <nah> when they were there, they didn't understand how to make changes to connect
16:38:14 <nah> it was their first time using tor browser
16:38:38 <donuts> I wonder how we can help set expectations
16:39:15 <donuts> like displaying a message for users from specific regions to expect longer bootstrapping times?
16:39:42 <nah> is it possible to add other warning during the connection attempt? like "tor is taking some time..." just to inform the user?
16:39:45 <nah> use
16:39:46 <nah> ops
16:39:49 <nah> yes
16:40:24 <championquizzer[m]> hrm, very interesting. I recall when we checked from one of china vantage point a couple of months ago, it took 20-25 minutes to bootstrap with a unlisted bridge. This was before connection assist
16:40:25 <donuts> yeah we've been discussing potential non-blocking errors for bootstrapping too
16:41:17 <championquizzer[m]> so i guess someone using the connection assist in CN might also see something similar (no evidence, just making a guess). a error message can be helpful :)
16:41:43 <donuts> so there are three levels of possible intervention here
16:42:22 <donuts> like a heads up with no further action required ("Connecting from China can take up to 20 mins..." etc.)
16:42:59 <donuts> non-blocking errors – which should be accompanied by a recommended action, but otherwise allow bootstrapping to continue uninterrupted
16:43:11 <donuts> and blocking errors (like complete failure, which we currently have)
16:43:44 <donuts> unfortunately Tor will also infinitely bootstrap in some situations without displaying any error at all, and that's not something than can be fixed until Arti
16:44:00 <nah> hm
16:44:42 <donuts> we were considering introducing regional timeouts with non-blocking errors, but they will undoubtedly occur in cases where the bootstrapping is genuinely working (just very slowly) too
16:44:47 <donuts> it's a very difficult problem
16:45:24 <donuts> it would be good to have more data on connection times in CN
16:45:39 <donuts> maybe we can collect that automatically
16:45:55 <donuts> without compromising privacy
16:46:18 <nah> ^if we can, that would be great
16:46:44 <donuts> I'll bring it up at todays S96 :)
16:46:47 <nah> this week i'm looking to find more testers for this
16:46:48 <championquizzer[m]> donuts: not sure of the latter but I can definitely follow up with some users and ask. maybe we will learn something
16:46:53 <nah> thank you, donuts!
16:47:00 <donuts> championquizzer[m]: thank you!
16:47:06 <nah> also still part of the test: after connecting it worked pretty well
16:47:07 <donuts> and thank you too nah!
16:47:08 <nah> however
16:47:29 <nah> most websites from the region were extremely slow (and sometimes blocking tor)
16:47:57 <donuts> :(
16:48:05 <nah> ups, lying... not most
16:48:07 <nah> ALL
16:48:14 <championquizzer[m]> wow
16:48:28 <nah> but websites outside the region worked well
16:49:06 <nah> (the websites that we tried, of course)
16:49:30 <nah> but good points are: user were able to download, install, connect (even after 5 min) and browse
16:49:59 <donuts> that part is very good :D
16:50:23 <nah> ok, that's it :)
16:50:25 <championquizzer[m]> nah: re. user was not clear what to do from preferences/settings. do you think having the documentation offline bundled with the browser will help? we will have that with 11.5
16:51:04 <nah> if they know where to find the documentation, that will def help
16:51:06 <donuts> I think for the VPN we should experiment with more direct recommendations within preferences
16:51:28 <donuts> like "Typically works well in your location" next to snowflake, for example
16:51:58 <championquizzer[m]> thanks, nah !
16:52:22 <nah> donuts: good point!
16:52:54 <donuts> I'm going to drop a note about that in the Figma, thanks nah!
16:53:32 <championquizzer[m]> donuts: does connection assist fallback to a different PT if the recommended one doesn't work?
16:54:14 <donuts> championquizzer[m]: if it's specified in the anti-censorship team's circumvention settings map
16:54:24 <championquizzer[m]> ah i see
16:54:26 <donuts> it should keep trying whatever's in the list until it exhausts all options
16:54:43 <donuts> for CN we recently discussed adding meek as a fallback after snowflake
16:54:50 <championquizzer[m]> yep!
16:54:56 <championquizzer[m]> now is clear. thanks!
16:55:01 <donuts> and then there's a global fallback, but I forget what that was (something obfs4-related)
16:55:40 <donuts> the problem is, if we run into infinite bootsrapping with the first option it WON'T fallback to anything, because bootstrapping hasn't failed
16:55:44 <donuts> hence the need for timeouts
16:56:05 <championquizzer[m]> true :/
16:56:34 <nah> yep
16:56:42 <donuts> I think the tl;dr is we should be able to do a better job here with the VPN + Arti
16:57:00 <donuts> atm we're limited with what we can do with the browser + C-tor
16:57:39 <nah> btw, another thing user shared "we don't have free vpns here, so this would be very useful for a lot of the people in the region"
16:58:09 <championquizzer[m]> awesome
16:58:40 <donuts> okay I've got to close this meeting, but this was very interesting – thank you nah!
16:58:57 <championquizzer[m]> thanks all!
16:59:02 <nicob> thanks all o/
16:59:17 <nah> thank you all o/
16:59:20 <donuts> at some point we should do a "what worked well/what didn't work well" from our recent connection improvements
16:59:32 <donuts> and figure out what we can learn for Arti/the VPN
16:59:58 <championquizzer[m]> +1 donuts
17:00:02 <donuts> thank you everyone!
17:00:04 <donuts> #endmeeting