14:00:02 <donuts> #startmeeting ux monthly sync
14:00:02 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Jul 13 14:00:02 2021 UTC.  The chair is donuts. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:02 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:05 <donuts> hello everyone!
14:00:17 <donuts> who's here for the ux team meeting today?
14:00:27 <ggus> hello o/
14:00:53 <nah> o/
14:01:08 <donuts> hi ggus, hi nah!
14:01:15 <kulsoom_z[m]> hello o/
14:01:27 <antonela> hellooo
14:01:49 <donuts> hey kulzoom_z!
14:01:57 <donuts> antonelaaa you're here!
14:02:15 <antonela> :D
14:02:20 <nah> antonela!!!
14:03:42 <donuts> pad is here: https://pad.riseup.net/p/1D8sK8Zy74b_0qclC97I-ux-team-monthly-2020-keep
14:03:58 <donuts> please add any items you'd like to discuss to the end of the agenda
14:04:10 <donuts> we'll give it an extra minute or two before we start
14:05:32 <donuts> okay let's get started!
14:06:01 <donuts> firstly, congratulations everyone on Tor Browser 10.5's launch! and thank you for all your hard work handling user support since then \o/
14:06:19 <donuts> kulsoom_z: your monthly report was super useful, thank you very much!
14:06:32 <donuts> * kulsoom_z[m]
14:07:05 <kulsoom_z[m]> I'm glad that helped :)
14:07:44 <donuts> I'll skip most of the announcements since we'll discuss them in the agenda, but I wanted to give a special shout out to Tails on the launch of their new connection assistant too
14:07:47 <donuts> https://blog.torproject.org/new-release-tails-420
14:08:03 <donuts> lovely illustrations as always!
14:08:51 <nah> looks great!
14:09:12 <donuts> Okay, the first item I have on the agenda is to discuss the 10.5 launch – and any _new_ bugs that are still outstanding
14:09:55 <emmapeel> they are also ahndres illos
14:09:57 <donuts> I've added links to those bugs to the pad
14:10:03 <emmapeel> (same as the home page)
14:10:08 <emmapeel> hello everybody
14:10:14 <donuts> it's not a full list of all outstanding issues, as I wanted to focus on the ones that have been reported in the past few weeks today
14:10:23 <donuts> hi emmapeel!
14:10:35 <donuts> props to ahndres!
14:11:33 <donuts> The two main outstanding bugs on desktop are to review the V2 deprecation error copy, and saved logins not being available in 10.5
14:11:59 <donuts> I don't think we officially support saved logins in 10.5, but ideally we shouldn't break it either
14:12:25 <donuts> I see there's been some conversation in the V2 deprecation ticket: https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/applications/tor-browser/-/issues/40523
14:12:29 <emmapeel> you need to change something for saving logins, i think. they are not enabled by default on TBB
14:12:29 <kulsoom_z[m]> we're continuing to receive even more tickets with confusion around v2 v3, this month.
14:12:57 <donuts> gotcha, would you mind summarizing the specific issues in the ticket please kulsoom_z[m]?
14:13:15 <donuts> just so we can be super careful when clarifying the copy in the warning
14:13:43 <donuts> my thoughts, which I added to the ticket, are: "for example, adding a "What can I do about it?" section that explains in a little more detail that the issue lies with the site itself – not their browser."
14:14:01 <donuts> do you think that would be sufficient ggus/kulzoom_z[m]?
14:14:02 <ggus> donuts: i think the issue is in about:tor page and not in the warning when visiting a website.
14:14:51 <donuts> right, I see your comment now ggus
14:15:18 <kulsoom_z[m]> since the new release, users see this warning bar on about:tor
14:16:41 <donuts> what release did we deploy the banner in? has it not been online for some time?
14:17:19 <donuts> (antonela, maybe you can remember?)
14:17:49 <donuts> or was it just in nightlies/alphas?
14:17:55 <ggus> yes, 10.0.x and we're getting users asking us to help them to upgrade to v3 since then
14:18:03 <donuts> right, gotcha
14:18:18 <donuts> do you think we need to review the error warning at all ggus? or just address the about:tor banner?
14:18:26 <kulsoom_z[m]> donuts: summarizing users want help on 'how to updgrade'
14:19:03 <antonela> so, it was just in alphas for sometime yes
14:19:11 <antonela> i dont have the point release in my mind
14:19:14 <ggus> just the about:tor banner
14:19:22 * antonela reading 10.5 issues
14:19:36 <donuts> okay no problem, I'll fix that ticket and give the applications team a heads up
14:19:50 <nah> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/applications/tor-browser/-/issues/40410
14:19:58 <nah> i think this is the one
14:20:17 <donuts> On the same subject, I believe this is still an issue too: https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/applications/fenix/-/issues/40176
14:20:37 <donuts> I think I'm going to ask the browser team very nicely (they've got a lot on) if we can prioritize it for a fix
14:20:44 <donuts> yep, that's it nah!
14:21:16 <ggus> yes, it's still an issue.
14:21:19 <donuts> I think the last issue worth mentioning is Snowflake's absence in Android
14:21:27 <donuts> which was a regrettable error :(
14:21:46 <donuts> however I believe it should be available in 10.5.3 from Friday, if all goes to plan
14:22:14 <donuts> gotcha, ty ggus
14:22:40 <antonela> i saw the metrics graph re snowflake use (up 2x!) and i wonder if obsf4 also got an increase
14:23:00 <donuts> snowflake got a huuuuge bump! and then a slight drop lol
14:23:13 <antonela> in a way its a kind of metric to measure success of the new ui and we should work on improving these numbers
14:23:15 <donuts> https://metrics.torproject.org/userstats-bridge-transport.html?start=2021-04-14&end=2021-07-13&transport=snowflake
14:23:15 <antonela> (maybeee)
14:23:18 <donuts> does that link work?
14:23:43 <donuts> yep, I'm really interested to see where it lands when the user numbers stablize
14:23:58 <antonela> then, people who had troubles connecting may be reaching frontdesk, that is also a good metric lol
14:24:06 <ggus> donuts: i believe we will have more users after android release on friday
14:24:11 <donuts> antonela: haha yes
14:24:45 <ggus> so far we didn't have people asking about how to use a bridge in TB 10.5.
14:24:49 <donuts> ggus: true! it probably won't level out for a couple of weeks yet, at least
14:24:57 <antonela> ggus: lovely
14:25:07 <donuts> that's promising
14:25:26 <antonela> i've been sadly stressing for wrong connections the ui and i got weird results, like not all the times i could recover
14:25:41 <donuts> what do you mean, sorry antonela?
14:26:21 <antonela> i've been trying wrong/weird parameters in about:config to emulate network errors
14:26:46 <donuts> oh I see
14:26:53 <antonela> i'll try to update the ticket with them so you and richard can reproduce
14:27:01 <donuts> what are the unrecoverable errors like?
14:27:10 <donuts> yes tyvm, that would be great!
14:27:23 <donuts> thank you ^^
14:27:24 <antonela> maybe its useful to have an scope of errors we want to work with, we cannot cover aaaall of them
14:27:33 <antonela> ye sure thing
14:27:41 <richard> it would be amazing to have those params laid out so I can repro
14:27:47 <donuts> yes, auditing the errors is something we never got around to earlier in the year
14:28:00 <richard> in the middle of refactoring to hopefully make it a bit less flaky in the future, so good to have test cases
14:28:11 <antonela> :wave:
14:28:22 * richard awaaaay
14:28:22 <antonela> lets work together in that list of errors?
14:28:24 <donuts> richard o/
14:28:31 <donuts> you're here now, you've got to stay
14:28:34 <donuts> it's the rules
14:28:37 * richard comes back
14:28:39 <antonela> i'll draft something and cc you richard
14:28:44 <richard> perfect :)
14:28:56 <antonela> cool
14:29:00 <donuts> thanks both!
14:29:04 <ggus> what happens if tor is blocked and a user try to connect? i couldn't find this error yet
14:29:28 <richard> it would probably just put up an unhelpful 'failed to bootstrap' error
14:30:24 <donuts> I think I saw a list of known errors in gitlab at some point? but I'm not sure where?
14:30:37 <donuts> let's pick this up at the next s30 meeting too
14:30:51 <ggus> sounds good!
14:31:37 <donuts> anything else on the subject of 10.5? or are we good?
14:31:44 <antonela> donuts: net ones? onion ones?
14:32:14 <donuts> antonela: unsure, I'll try and find the ticket to see
14:32:21 <antonela> good luck!
14:32:25 <donuts> ha, ty
14:32:40 <antonela> (tag me if you find it :D)
14:32:45 <donuts> will do ^^
14:33:09 <antonela> <3
14:33:35 <donuts> So next on the agenda – we recently talked about getting feedback from the community about our two proposed forum structures
14:33:44 <donuts> is that right ggus? did we land on two different options?
14:34:03 <donuts> A product-orientated structure, vs a needs-orientated structure?
14:34:32 <ggus> yes, that's right
14:34:40 <ggus> i will get the ticket
14:34:45 <donuts> ty!
14:35:30 <donuts> I've added a link to the pad that explains tree testing if anyone's unfamiliar: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/tree-testing/
14:35:33 <ggus> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/community/support/-/issues/40026
14:35:49 <donuts> it's more straightforward than it looks (and is just an idea, we don't have to test it so formally)
14:35:56 <ggus> Should it be (1) "Support » Tor Browser" or (2) "Tor Browser » Support".
14:36:07 <donuts> thanks ggus, have added to the pad
14:36:33 <donuts> are you still planning on building the two structures for comparison directly in discourse?
14:37:14 <ggus> i don't know, how this tree testing works?
14:37:32 <donuts> so we present users with both structures
14:37:41 <donuts> and give them a list of search and find tasks
14:38:01 <donuts> they can be things like "Where would you go to post about X?"
14:38:26 <donuts> the questions can be very specific
14:38:38 <donuts> and then we can compare the results between each structure for accuracy
14:38:46 <antonela> card sorting is a great method to validate ia
14:39:08 <donuts> yep! this is the inverse of card sorting
14:39:12 <donuts> like pre-sorted cards
14:39:22 * gaba is around only now but reading
14:39:26 <donuts> but we could also do a regular card sorting exercise instead
14:39:43 <ggus> and how we would do this test? like interviews or?
14:40:02 <gaba> how much more time/effort this will take?
14:40:02 <donuts> interviews would be best if we have the time, so we could monitor difficulty too
14:40:06 <antonela> donuts: its good also, people will be organizing topics based on their mental models
14:40:08 <gaba> i think is better to do it the simplest
14:40:09 <donuts> however if not we can do simple email or a survey
14:40:35 <donuts> antonela's suggestion is a good option too, where we just give users the unstructured topics and let them build their own structures
14:40:45 <donuts> and use that info to inform our decision
14:41:03 <antonela> donuts: a simple trello board can help you, not sure about the foss status of trello these days
14:41:25 <donuts> to summarize: basically tree-testing (or reverse card sorting) gives users pre-built structures for testing, and card sorting gives users unstructured topics to build their own
14:41:47 <donuts> antonela: ah ty, good idea
14:42:09 <gaba> remember that we do not have so much time allocated to this
14:42:33 <antonela> but is better to validate with an small set of users than reorganize the entire forum structure after releasead
14:42:36 <antonela> *released
14:43:10 <donuts> yeah, I'm running on the assumption that we were going to build the prototypes for feedback anyway
14:43:21 <donuts> so this is just to provide some structure to the feedback
14:43:23 <nah> we are going to run some interviews next week with latam communities, if we can make it possible by then, we can ask them to try and give us feeback through a survey or something like this
14:44:20 <donuts> ggus: would you like me to writeup the options and the effort involved for each, and add it to the ticket for consideration?
14:44:38 <ggus> donuts: that would be very helpful!, yes!
14:44:51 <donuts> okay no prob, will do later today!
14:45:26 <donuts> anything else on the forum folks? or shall we hand over to kulzoom_z[m] for the user feedback report?
14:45:51 <donuts> *kulsoom_z[m], apologies
14:48:28 <nah> kulsoom_z[m], great report! i tagged you in some tickets for specific feedback, it's very helpful, thank you!
14:49:05 <donuts> yess, it was super helpful for us
14:49:13 <kulsoom_z[m]> nah: please let me know if you've any more questions or want any more details
14:51:08 <nah> np! i would like to suggest, if possible, for the next one to list the feedback in descending order (like the ones most common to the least common)
14:51:59 <ggus> do you think stack exchange stats are useful? should we skip it in the next report?
14:51:59 <kulsoom_z[m]> ah, will definitely do that
14:52:09 <ggus> same question for reddit
14:52:13 <kulsoom_z[m]> do you have any other suggestions for me? that can be incorporated in the next report?
14:52:18 <donuts> hrm, let me open the report to refresh my memory
14:52:25 <donuts> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2021-July/003139.html
14:52:52 <donuts> I think we can probably skip stack exchange? what do you think nah?
14:53:08 <donuts> reddit is useful though I think
14:53:56 <nah> well, if we could have more specific about issues, not only discussions,  it can ve helpful
14:54:21 <nah> also some public screenshots can help understand the issues better
14:54:30 <nah> but i don't think that is very common
14:54:58 <donuts> +1 for the screenshots, if we feel like they're generally representative of the issue
14:55:05 <donuts> it always helps me understand the point better
14:55:52 <ggus> yeah, let's see what we can do for the next user feedback report. the next one is going to be published in the first week of August
14:57:00 <nah> if you need me to help in the next one, just lmk
14:57:18 <donuts> great, ty community team!
14:57:37 <donuts> we're just about out of time
14:57:52 <donuts> any last comments before I hit the button?
14:58:01 <championquizzer> hey folks. a suggestion: ref. about:tor. can we update the banner message with something like- 'this change primarily concerns onion service operators and not regular tb users'
14:58:23 <donuts> just in the nick of time championquizzer, lol
14:58:25 <championquizzer> like we do in the tormodbot faq on #tor
14:58:28 <championquizzer> https://gitlab.torproject.org/pastly/weechat-tormodbot/-/raw/master/faq/%23tor/v2-deprecation.txt
14:59:07 <championquizzer> i can mention in the ticket :)
14:59:10 <donuts> yes, that would certainly help – I'm also tempted to remove it altogether if we think it will continue causing issues
14:59:17 <donuts> please! thanks championquizzer!
14:59:59 <donuts> we have the contextual V2 warnings and I'm hopeful they'll still reach the right audience
15:00:15 <donuts> it would also give us more time for the TBA address bar issue
15:00:37 <donuts> okay, thanks everyone for coming! looking forward to seeing you again next month o/
15:00:42 <donuts> #endmeeting