13:58:46 <antonela> #startmeeting ux team 13:58:46 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Nov 20 13:58:46 2018 UTC. The chair is antonela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 13:58:46 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 13:58:55 <antonela> let's do it! 13:58:59 <antonela> hello people 13:59:34 <dunqan> 👋 hello! 13:59:39 <antonela> as usual the pad is here https://storm.torproject.org/shared/UkUguHlAlZOmv_9mzyy4edxMc-cT6SeXnqGdrsPKtdG 13:59:47 <antonela> hello dunqan! 14:01:40 <antonela> please, add you updates to the pad, keep the roadmap items updated and make sure that if you have any topic to discuss, it is listed under the agenda 14:02:27 <pili> hi 14:02:38 <antonela> hi pili! 14:04:01 <_hc> hello 14:04:28 <antonela> hi _hc! 14:04:57 <antonela> nyinz is not here today 14:05:03 <antonela> hiro emmapeel 14:06:07 <emmapeel> yo 14:08:05 <n8fr8too> greetings 14:08:25 <flexlibris> yo 14:08:37 <antonela> holaaa 14:08:42 <flexlibris> holaaaaa 14:08:42 <antonela> okey, lets start? 14:08:44 <antonela> haha 14:08:51 <antonela> hi nathan! 14:09:07 <No60003> Hi guys! 14:09:14 <No60003> This is Fabby 14:09:18 <antonela> hola fabby! 14:09:29 <emmapeel> yeah the guardian on da house 14:09:47 <antonela> i invited Guardian Project folks to this UX meeting so we can use some of this meeting time to talk a bit about the new TBA and Orbot integration 14:10:17 <antonela> also, since they did an awesome work on orbot and orfox before i'm sure they have suggestions to share :) 14:10:21 <antonela> so, thanks for coming ! 14:10:42 * Samdney lurks 14:10:57 <antonela> the relevant ticket is #28329 14:11:28 <antonela> we are on the initial stage to figure out what is the best flow for tba users to get connected to tor 14:12:08 <antonela> as i told fabby via email i don't want to discuss UI yet but collect what you people think about to approach this user flow on one or another way 14:12:28 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> Hola! 14:13:11 <antonela> ideally i'd like to deliver (aka the scope) the best flow we could image and also a suggestion about how we can implement it progressively 14:13:14 <antonela> hola elio! 14:13:17 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> (was wondering for a sec what TBA meant apart 'to be announced') 14:13:29 <antonela> lol TBA - Tor Browser Android 14:14:22 <dunqan> aha I wasn't sure either, seems obvious now! 14:14:31 <antonela> one thing that i have been talking with hellais is which minimum data ooni needs to make a diagnosis about the network our users are connected to 14:14:39 <antonela> sorry sorry 14:15:52 <antonela> seems like having country+ASN OR the user IP could help ooni to make this diagnosis 14:16:09 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> Definitely 14:17:20 <antonela> why im hesitant to ask users about their location? I don't know, i feel like we need to be extra clear that the location is going to be used to make a diagnosis and things start to become complex to explain for end users 14:19:22 <n8fr8too> one approach we have taken is using the language/locale/country info 14:19:34 <n8fr8too> this doesn't require a special permission. 14:19:57 <antonela> oh that is interesting 14:20:08 <n8fr8too> We could say "Looks like you are in Ethiopia? Want us to set Tor up for you appropriately?" 14:20:13 <antonela> so we could know the location without asking for that specific permission 14:20:13 <n8fr8too> we did this for Iran and bridges already 14:20:34 <n8fr8too> yeah, it isn't perfect, as someone can be traveling, not living in their country, etc, but for most users, it is fine 14:21:20 <antonela> thats great tho 14:21:49 <antonela> if you are looking to this userflow i made https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/attachment/ticket/28329/userflow.png 14:22:08 <antonela> the ideal flow could be 0 / 1.a - YES / 2.a / 3 / 3.2 / 4 14:22:55 <antonela> the problem we found running user testing is that most of the time, non technical users, don't know if they need a bridge, and they try options until something works 14:23:01 <n8fr8too> yup 14:23:30 <antonela> *maybe* we could do that trials under the hood and avoid frustrating the user 14:23:42 <n8fr8too> with Orbot, for phones set to Farsi, we automatically enabled bridges, configured to use special bridges setup just for them 14:24:30 <n8fr8too> i *think* it was a success... at least it simplified their experience, and ensured they reached unsaturated bridges 14:24:41 <antonela> that is smart, but hard to scale. I could imagine that we cannot enabled bridges freely just because there are not enough bridges to be used 14:24:55 <antonela> yes you right 14:25:27 <n8fr8too> the other idea we had was to try and connect, and if we got stuck at 10-15% connecting for more than a certain time interval, then switch to bridges 14:25:46 <antonela> how risky it is for users? 14:25:49 <n8fr8too> this has some risk in that the user then is "exposed" as using tor 14:26:00 <n8fr8too> depends on the place! 14:26:00 <antonela> yes that is my question 14:26:15 <antonela> let's say im in egypt and i'm get stuck in 10-15% 14:26:47 <antonela> that is a risk for users 14:26:56 <slacktopus> <hellais> The language/locale trick is neat, though I fear it will not work as well for languages like Arabic or Spanish 14:27:18 <n8fr8too> but we have country code too 14:27:24 <n8fr8too> we know MX/ES vs ES/ES 14:27:38 <n8fr8too> also time zone! 14:28:13 <n8fr8too> anyhow, i think OONI is the best resource to make the choice of whether the user should always have a bridge or not 14:28:24 <antonela> yep, but timezone gives you more possibilities 14:28:27 <hiro> here sorry 14:28:36 <n8fr8too> sadly we don't have enough bridge capacity to support all the users who might need bridges in places where using tor would be a risk 14:28:40 <hiro> totally forgot it's 1 hour earlier 14:28:48 <antonela> yes! but we need to give OONI the right data 14:28:53 <antonela> hey hiro, no worries 14:29:10 <antonela> n8fr8too yep 14:29:14 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> (there is a power outage here so am on mobile now, but not much of use for the meeting) 14:29:58 <slacktopus> <hellais> I fear you maybe be creating a new problem to solve though , figuring out the country based on time zone & language code and handling misconfigurations of these 14:30:29 <antonela> another thing i'd like to discuss with sysrqb is about having all orbot settings available at tba or not 14:32:27 <antonela> then I don't think we will bring VPN mode to TBA 14:33:00 <n8fr8too> yes please don't! the idea was for TBA to just be Tor for the browser, and still give room for Orbot to be Orbot 14:33:15 <antonela> yep, i think the same from a product perspective 14:33:29 <sysrqb> . 14:33:36 <antonela> hehe hi sysrqb 14:33:37 * sysrqb reads backlog 14:33:57 <antonela> and n8fr8too as we talked before, is a market that orbot can explore by himself 14:34:07 <slacktopus> <hellais> https://developer.android.com/reference/android/telephony/TelephonyManager#getNetworkCountryIso() 14:34:14 <slacktopus> <hellais> This seems interesting 14:34:15 <n8fr8too> he is ready to explore! 14:34:18 <antonela> :) 14:34:44 <slacktopus> <hellais> Though it will not work on Android devices without a sim card 14:34:49 <n8fr8too> i feel like that requires some kind of permission 14:35:25 <n8fr8too> the idea we had with this "autodetect location without GPS" was as a opportunistic nice to have feature, that would work most of the time. by saying "hey we think you are here, and might need a special Tor config. Okay?" 14:35:40 <n8fr8too> we allow them to say "No I am actually not there right now" or correct us somehow as well 14:35:50 <n8fr8too> as opposed to the "Do you need a bridge?" prompt being the first question 14:36:00 <antonela> exactly 14:36:45 <antonela> i want TBA to be proactive on suggesting ways to connect instead of expect users knowledge to pick the right config 14:38:26 <pili> +1 14:39:05 <No60003> That's the best approach, most of the users don't even know what a bridge is. 14:39:12 <antonela> yep 14:39:17 <_hc> I think TelephonyManager requires android.permission.READ_PHONE_STATE 14:39:33 <_hc> yeah, it should definitely offer things to try where the user just has to say yes or no 14:39:47 <sysrqb> Yes, TBA+Orbot should only provide minimum functionality, similar to on desktop - we don't need or want the VPN mode for this 14:39:56 <sysrqb> and I'm considering dropping the hidden services stuff, too 14:40:10 <antonela> sysrqb: yesss 14:40:15 <sysrqb> we just wanted a solution that got us up and running as soon as possible 14:40:33 <n8fr8too> though keeping a way to support client authentication / tokens for onion services would be great 14:40:43 <n8fr8too> we already have that capability 14:40:57 <antonela> sysrqb: yep, but if we can think about the ideal flow, then we can implement it progressively 14:40:58 <sysrqb> ah, that is good, yeah 14:41:07 <sysrqb> antonela: yep 14:41:28 <antonela> and by progressively i mean this section is not going to be automagically now, we need to ask users input *for now* 14:41:54 <antonela> but at least we have a flow that we agreed that we can build and we are all the parts in the same page 14:42:28 <sysrqb> and we're implementing this within TBA (Firefox Fennec), so we can swap Orbot for TOPL (Tor Onion Proxy Library) later 14:42:44 <sysrqb> yep 14:43:10 <antonela> okay! this conversation was insightful ! thanks folks for joining us! i hope we can have more spaces like this to share ideas :) 14:43:43 <antonela> next steps for me is sync with sysrqb about how we can do it now and how we can planify it for the future 14:44:22 <antonela> n8fr8too, _hc, No60003 please keep that ticket in your notes so you can jump if you have any comment 14:44:25 <n8fr8too> No60003 got concerned that you were just taking over all Orbot functions completely (which I knew you weren't), so yes communications are good! 14:45:14 <sysrqb> :) agreed 14:45:47 <antonela> cool 14:46:30 <antonela> emmapeel: do you want to talk about content in any way? just to open the discussion, we can go deep next week 14:46:45 <n8fr8too> we are adding in cool dance moves into Orbot, configurable skins, and loot crates! 14:46:51 <n8fr8too> so there is that... 14:46:51 <antonela> yeee 14:46:59 <emmapeel> well i wanted to mention that there is need for some cntent writing 14:47:20 <emmapeel> but is ok we had lots of talking today 14:47:45 <emmapeel> also i wanted peple to hink about merging some points of information and keep them updated 14:48:01 <antonela> do you mean faqs? or what? 14:48:17 <emmapeel> i think we are spread too thin over many different unmaintaned webpages regarding explaining things to the users 14:48:45 <emmapeel> some stuff is on the wiki, sme stuff is on tpo/doc, some stuff is is support.tpo, some stuff in tb-manual.tpo.... 14:48:55 <antonela> yes, ideally all the things that can help end users should go to support.tpo 14:49:10 <antonela> the wiki is good for edit but is hard for localization 14:49:38 <emmapeel> yes, i think the wiki is cool to write the texts, but when they are more or less 'finished', complete, they should move to support 14:49:56 <antonela> emmapeel: agreed 14:50:00 <pili> maybe we need to figure out a workflow for this that doesn't involve the wiki 14:50:04 <emmapeel> and then, once they are moved, we have to be able to keep them maintained and forward the previous resource to them 14:50:12 <antonela> do you want to list that duplicated content in a ticket or something so we can work with wayward and the community team to merge it if is ready? 14:50:17 <pili> e.g through trac tickets 14:50:34 <emmapeel> there are some tickets, we have been working on merging the bridges page (well traumschule did most of the work) 14:50:50 <antonela> yes i saw it 14:51:04 * emmapeel looks 14:52:28 <emmapeel> https://github.com/torproject/manual/pull/7 for example here this one 14:53:07 <emmapeel> one thing i have done today is to ask weasel to build more branches from the manual, so we can push to our repo and the new version is going to appear at https://lektor-staging.torproject.org/tor-browser-manual/ 14:53:23 <emmapeel> so i hope this will make the content easier to review for all stakeholders 14:53:26 <antonela> okey we are having discussions in github too 14:53:28 <hiro> emmapeel the staging is there already 14:53:32 <hiro> what do you mean? 14:53:42 <hiro> like more staging? 14:53:48 <emmapeel> hiro: that now all branches pushed to the repo will make a build 14:53:58 <emmapeel> yeah more staging for branches that are in work 14:54:03 <hiro> uhm 14:54:07 <hiro> why do we need that? 14:54:18 <hiro> I know not everybody can create branches 14:54:28 <hiro> but I do not want to end up with lots of builds either 14:54:30 <emmapeel> i think it is better to give stephw or sstevenson a link so they can review 14:54:40 <hiro> and staging wasn't enough? 14:54:45 <emmapeel> well there should not be so many 14:55:01 <hiro> yeah but then one forget to delete the branch and it stays there 14:55:18 <hiro> also I think to delete a branch we need to give RW+ access to the repo 14:55:22 <hiro> which by default we don't have 14:55:25 <emmapeel> yeah but if the changes are not finished they also stay there in staging 14:55:35 <hiro> I think we should just work with staging to be honest 14:55:49 <emmapeel> ok 14:56:25 <hiro> but if you feel strongly about this and you think it will make your job easier and weasel is cool with it 14:56:30 <hiro> I can get onboard 14:56:48 <emmapeel> well it was an idea because i felt i was not getting reviews for the content 14:56:58 <emmapeel> i can think about it and if i dont find a solution i ping you again 14:57:20 <emmapeel> i mean.. people was answering but they were not really able to see the images, for example 14:57:39 <hiro> what about having CI from github? 14:57:46 <hiro> and building the website there? 14:57:49 <hiro> via travis? 14:57:50 <emmapeel> that would also be good for me yeah 14:57:54 <antonela> that is great 14:58:09 <antonela> are we going with gh so? 14:58:21 <hiro> I think we can use that to have previews 14:58:32 <emmapeel> then it will be better, because i will not need to push myself or give push access to anybody, people can push to their own repo (thinking again on traumschule's case because he is doing a lot of contributions to the content) 14:58:41 <hiro> yep 14:58:48 <antonela> hiro could you explore that? 14:58:49 <emmapeel> also i think is easier to make reviews 14:58:54 <antonela> i mean try if it is doable 14:58:55 <emmapeel> in github 14:59:05 <antonela> yes emmapeel it is 14:59:11 <antonela> okey people we are on time! 14:59:24 <antonela> hiro will let you know about the CI and if we can use it? 15:00:07 <antonela> thanks Guardian folks for joining us today! and thanks Tor folks as always :) 15:00:09 <hiro> yep I'll do that 15:00:13 <antonela> super 15:00:16 <antonela> we groot? 15:00:21 <hiro> groot 15:00:23 <pili> groot 15:00:26 <antonela> #endmeeting