19:02:11 <GeKo> #startmeeting tor browser  - ux team sync
19:02:11 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed May  9 19:02:11 2018 UTC.  The chair is GeKo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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19:02:17 <antonela> thanks!
19:02:17 <GeKo> i can but so can you :)
19:02:27 <antonela> can you teach me later?
19:02:35 <GeKo> yep
19:02:40 <antonela> thanks!
19:02:44 <antonela> so, hi all :)
19:02:52 <antonela> we have for today #25694
19:03:46 <antonela> i read all the related tickets and came up with a proposal and then mcs suggested to use FF60 by default with some considerations
19:04:11 <antonela> which seems the most sensate option for now
19:04:31 <GeKo> antonela: before we start could we do a current sync about the timeline for all the tickets we have
19:04:40 <GeKo> like what should be done first etc.?
19:04:45 <antonela> oh yes sure
19:04:57 <kevun> Hello
19:05:25 <antonela> https://oniongit.eu/groups/ux/-/boards
19:05:25 <GeKo> antonela: what's your current plan in this regard?
19:05:51 <antonela> do you want to review your spreadsheet or the board is ok?
19:06:11 <GeKo> the board is empty in my tor browser
19:06:27 <antonela> :/
19:06:49 <antonela> lets go with the spreadsheet so
19:07:06 <antonela> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1joFGDiHaqlorGeXhytKakiSnWY9TqTDv5XqmbT3FkX8/edit#gid=0
19:07:45 <GeKo> so, one thing we basically have ready is #24309
19:07:56 <dmr> GeKo: same thing for me :(
19:08:06 <GeKo> however we can't ship it until we have a solution for #24918
19:08:13 <antonela> yes, and also android versions for tablets and android are done too
19:08:21 <antonela> tablets and phones sorry
19:08:28 <GeKo> that's not so important right now
19:08:54 <GeKo> so, iirc #24918 dependend on #25695
19:08:57 <antonela> #24918 is contemplated at #25695
19:09:01 <GeKo> yes
19:09:02 <antonela> yes
19:09:14 <antonela> using a default FF60 user flow
19:10:04 <GeKo> then we need #25693 and #25702 for esr60 as well
19:10:24 <antonela> yes, i didnt touch them yet
19:10:27 <GeKo> and #25694
19:10:54 <antonela> well, i'm designing all this tasks with Photon UI styleguide
19:11:01 <GeKo> so the first alpha based on esr60 is supposed to get out in 7 weeks
19:11:21 <antonela> how much of our work will be there?
19:11:26 <GeKo> how do you think we should structure the remaining ux work for that?
19:12:09 <antonela> remaining UX work is : #25658 is security settings -> i believe that last week we signed to test the shield icon version
19:13:11 <GeKo> yes, however that's not esr60 specific
19:13:25 <GeKo> so, i am inclined to give that slightly less prio right now
19:13:45 <GeKo> and focus on getting all the esr60 must-haves done before the first alpha
19:14:04 <antonela> okey, so esr60 specific are: FF60 UI + new onboarding + new circuit display + new app icon
19:14:13 <GeKo> just to give them the max amount of testing we can give them before 8.0 gets out
19:14:19 <GeKo> yes
19:14:47 <GeKo> and the update experience
19:15:02 <GeKo> aka #25694 and friends
19:15:04 <antonela> when do you think we could have it in a build for testing? If it is so hard, we can test with paper prototypes tho
19:15:22 <GeKo> you mean before the alpha?
19:15:32 <antonela> a nightly maybe?
19:15:41 <antonela> (i dont know, just wondering)
19:15:45 <GeKo> macOS and windows might take longer
19:15:51 <antonela> linux works
19:16:02 <GeKo> in 2 latest 3 weeks i guess
19:16:53 <antonela> great! it gives me time to prepare the documentation for testing and then we can have 2 weeks for testing and 2 weeks for iterate, what do you think?
19:17:06 <GeKo> before the alpha, yes
19:17:23 <GeKo> but i am more than fine having the while alpha cycle for testing and iterating as i said
19:17:34 <GeKo> which is about two more months
19:17:43 <antonela> oh, thats sounds good
19:17:54 <antonela> i would like to run user testing during our visit to Uganda
19:18:04 <GeKo> when's that?
19:18:06 <antonela> which will happen in two weeks
19:18:13 <antonela> so, sounds like the stars are aligned :)
19:18:22 <GeKo> okay, we try to make that happen
19:18:49 <antonela> cool, so I'll focus 1) on document research for it 2) make sure that you have attached on tickets all the assets you need from me
19:19:12 <antonela> sounds good?
19:19:34 <GeKo> yes
19:19:49 <antonela> cool, we have a plan :)
19:19:54 <GeKo> yep
19:19:59 <GeKo> now to the actual meet
19:20:04 <GeKo> *meat
19:20:14 * GeKo hands the mic to antonela
19:20:22 <antonela> :)
19:20:37 <antonela> yes, Update Tor is the ticket we are reviewing today
19:20:54 <antonela> as i said, i read all the related tickets and came up with a proposal and then mcs suggested to use FF60 by default with some considerations
19:21:15 <antonela> which seems the most sensate option for now
19:21:54 <antonela> even, when our users tasks are not in the same context
19:22:13 <antonela> something i would like to review is if this FF60 flow contemplates all the tickets that were mentioned there
19:22:21 <mcs> If we use FF60 as a starting point, there are still some things we need (e.g., an “out of date” warning on about:tor, something that shows the browser has been updated)
19:22:29 <antonela> there as #25694
19:22:37 <antonela> mcs yes!
19:23:08 <antonela> so next step for me is thinking about those 2 things initially and check if we are missing anything from the other tickets with this flow
19:23:40 <antonela> what i would like to define now is, all good with going with FF60 defaults?
19:24:09 <antonela> can we continue working over their UX?
19:25:02 <antonela> if yes, anything critical we should consider than they don't? besides the 2 mentioned items
19:25:06 <GeKo> i think so
19:25:24 <antonela> s/than/that
19:25:43 <GeKo> we should patch a bunch of things, though, i guess
19:25:52 <antonela> i think so
19:26:45 <mcs> GeKo: What do you mean by “a bunch of things?”
19:27:36 <GeKo> e.g. the text shown to the user (abuot restoring things)
19:27:50 <mcs> Ah, yes, agreed.
19:28:16 <GeKo> and maybe we want to have a more agressive "an update is available"-icon as you mentioned
19:28:25 <antonela> yes
19:28:43 <GeKo> and i think a ui for the download progress is a good idea, too
19:29:07 <mcs> I also think Firefox lacks feedback while an update is downloading. That could be improved too.
19:29:14 <mcs> :)
19:29:17 <antonela> :)
19:29:30 <GeKo> indeed :)
19:30:11 <GeKo> but generally i agree with the reasoning in comment:7 in #25694
19:30:30 <antonela> do you think we could have something running with the doorhanger opened? or will the download icon do their default job?
19:30:54 <antonela> re downloading progress ^
19:31:22 <mcs> For download progress, we could put a message in the hamburger menu and also shown it in the doorhanger when it is open.
19:31:30 <antonela> great
19:31:40 <mcs> But I am not sure how difficult that will be… should be possible.
19:32:25 <GeKo> i wonder how hard an icon on the toolbar would be counting the seconds/minutes down
19:32:33 <GeKo> which are still remaining
19:32:52 <antonela> yep
19:32:56 <GeKo> but maybe that would confuse users dunno
19:33:05 <antonela> is a normal download icon behaviour?
19:33:13 <GeKo> like "wtf why is this icon suddenly popping up?"
19:33:17 <GeKo> yes
19:33:24 <mcs> It seems like that info is available since they show something like it in about:preferences (but I think it is just percentage complete, not a time estimate).
19:33:33 <GeKo> but usually it's the users that's starting a particular download
19:33:45 <GeKo> *user
19:33:49 <antonela> mcs: yes
19:34:04 <GeKo> and thus they'd expect such a progress icon on the toolbar
19:34:05 <mcs> Hmm. Might be confusing. That’s why I thought to hide the details in the hamburger menu.
19:34:12 <GeKo> yep
19:34:25 <GeKo> we can definitely start with that one
19:34:38 <antonela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/attachment/ticket/25694/FF60%20Updater.png
19:34:42 <GeKo> and think about some more fancier later on
19:34:47 <GeKo> *something
19:35:30 <antonela> at the bottom left we have a ↑ icon, if we are downloading we could have a ↓ icon
19:35:54 <mcs> There is also a Firefox/toolkit bug about switching the updater to use the same download code as user-initiated downloads, but I think it was fixed and backed out.
19:36:05 <mcs> That might make it easier to get time estimates, etc.
19:36:11 <antonela> i can mockup it, but then the download button is what is tracking all the downloads happening at the browser
19:36:20 <antonela> anw, i can mockup both
19:38:02 <igt0> what happens if the user clicks in the not now button? (does the tor button icon change saying the browser is not up to date?)
19:39:32 <antonela> good question, i'd like to encourage [not now] users to change this setting in some way
19:40:11 <antonela> as a [not now] kind of user, i find extremely useful when the UI bother me with updating things
19:40:12 <mcs> igt0: It could. I think we change the about:tor page today (all open about:tor pages) when the browser notices it is out-of-date.
19:40:32 <antonela> i like it mcs
19:40:37 <mcs> We should also think about whether we need to keep the two update check mechanisms that we currently have.
19:41:05 <antonela> what do you think about the red about:tor warning page in that case?
19:41:31 <mcs> I think the red warning will not be missed if someone has about:tor open :)
19:42:07 <arthuredelstein> Is there value in allowing users to disable automatic updates? I wonder if we should require auto updates.
19:42:35 <antonela> mcs :)
19:43:19 <meejah> As long as it doesn't delete my bookmarks/bookmark toolbar, automatic updates would be great :)
19:43:21 <antonela> arthur seems like the main problem is not the download update step, the main problem is the restart
19:44:08 <arthuredelstein> antonela: That's mode A in your image, right? So I'm wondering if we don't even need mode B.
19:44:14 <antonela> looks like nobody wants to restart with all the tabs opened and no-booksmarks
19:44:14 <GeKo> arthuredelstein: no, we should not require it. but disabling auto updates is already pretty hard
19:44:37 <antonela> arthuredelstein: yes i got it
19:44:46 <GeKo> (as frustrated users on the blog are over and over again reporting)
19:45:10 <GeKo> and we should not optimize for that mode
19:45:34 <arthuredelstein> I don't mean forcing users to restart immediately, I just mean having the update downloaded and ready for the next restart doesn't need to be optional (I think)
19:45:49 <arthuredelstein> At least I'm not sure I can think of a good use case
19:47:43 <antonela> I just mean having the update downloaded and ready for the next restart doesn't need to be optional -> I might agree
19:48:00 <mcs> Sometimes it is useful to keep old versions around and not ever have them update… but that is more of a developer issue.
19:48:06 <arthuredelstein> In a sense, the downloading of the update is an implementation detail
19:48:24 <antonela> yes, but we should tell users that the downloading is happening in some way
19:48:24 <mcs> We could remove the about:preferences UI and keep it as a hidden pref
19:48:31 <arthuredelstein> mcs: true, there is a developer use case
19:49:04 <GeKo> there is the other issue that we copy the whole user profile dir on windows and linux when updating
19:49:36 <GeKo> which is trouble for folks having little disk space left but a huge profile dir
19:49:58 <mcs> GeKo: Mozilla disabled staged updates a little while ago, so that kind of copying will no longer occur.
19:50:13 <GeKo> aha, good
19:50:29 <mcs> Mozilla has too many weird bugs with staged updates. Windows fell first, then macOS and Linux :)
19:50:42 <GeKo> heh
19:51:15 <GeKo> i am fine hiding the prefs and ui for making it harder
19:51:28 <GeKo> but i would not rip out the option generally
19:52:33 <arthuredelstein> yeah, I agree it probably makes sense as a hidden option
19:52:45 <arthuredelstein> at least for developer uses
19:52:50 <dmr> I agree as well
19:53:12 <dmr> should probably document it in the wiki (browser Hacking page)
19:53:58 <GeKo> nah
19:54:42 <GeKo> antonela: okay, are we good for today?
19:54:49 <GeKo> we are close to the hour :)
19:54:52 <antonela> yes, i think so
19:55:23 <antonela> I'll update Update Tor ticket this week with all what we talked about
19:55:28 <antonela> and move forward with research docs
19:55:33 <GeKo> sounds good
19:55:39 <antonela> thanks for sorting it GeKo :)
19:55:44 <GeKo> sure
19:55:55 <GeKo> thanks everyone o/
19:56:00 <GeKo> #endmeeting