19:03:16 <isabela> #startmeeting tb+ux teams sync on circuit display 19:03:16 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Feb 7 19:03:16 2018 UTC. The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:03:16 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:03:18 <isabela> boom 19:03:20 <isabela> alright 19:03:27 <isabela> i think this sync is for 2 things 19:03:57 <isabela> 1. confirm we like version 8 of the display and 2. talk about the 'discovery mechanism' we are suggesting 19:04:17 <isabela> and then we can maybe talk about 3. how we build this, how we also do this on mobile 19:04:28 <isabela> does this sounds ok? 19:05:25 <arthuredelstein> sounds good 19:05:33 <isabela> #24309 19:05:34 <GeKo> yep 19:05:39 <isabela> if anyone needs the main ticket 19:05:51 <antonela> the onion icon there is up-to-review 19:06:03 <isabela> does everyone knows what i am saying when i say version 8? 19:06:31 <antonela> when is it going to be on development GeKo? We have plans to work on the onion icon in March 19:07:05 <arthuredelstein> version 8 is in this image: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/attachment/ticket/24309/24309-4.png 19:07:15 <isabela> antonela: this is part of todays discussion 19:07:22 <isabela> arthuredelstein: yes 19:07:22 <antonela> oh great 19:07:45 <antonela> also, 24309 for mobile needs work. I'd like to provide mockups for the mobile android team too 19:07:57 <isabela> yes, we will get there too 19:08:20 <isabela> lest start with the display versions first then we can talk about the discovery thing for users 19:08:59 <isabela> if we all agree we should do version 8 19:09:07 <arthuredelstein> versions 5 and 6 have interesting things about confirming the circuit 19:09:08 <isabela> we can move on to the discover thing 19:09:23 <arthuredelstein> not sure if we discussed those before 19:09:47 <isabela> is the same button 19:09:56 <isabela> ah you mean the second stage 19:10:10 <arthuredelstein> yeah, asking for confirmation and giving some information about what the new circuit means 19:10:34 <arthuredelstein> It might be useful once, and then less useful for following times. 19:10:40 <isabela> yeah 19:10:40 <arthuredelstein> Or maybe it's not necessary at all. I'm not sure. 19:10:49 <isabela> i also dont see a need when you can just say before hand like on 9 19:10:50 <isabela> ops 19:10:50 <isabela> 8 19:10:59 <antonela> arthuredelstein: it was my first option, check comment10 19:11:05 <GeKo> isabela: +1 19:11:29 <antonela> but we talked about it, like isa said 19:12:32 <arthuredelstein> I myself tend to lean toward thinking version 8 is enough, but it's hard to know what a naive user needs. 19:12:47 <isabela> true 19:12:55 <isabela> but think that we will do tons of user testing and improve from there 19:13:03 <isabela> is just a begining 19:13:03 <GeKo> well, we can iterate on it if we think there shuld be something better 19:13:07 <GeKo> ha 19:13:07 <arthuredelstein> yes, good 19:13:13 <GeKo> what isa said :) 19:13:28 <arthuredelstein> so otherwise I really like version 8 19:13:31 <isabela> is ux mantra - we know we dont know what the user needs 19:13:32 <isabela> :) 19:13:38 <isabela> that is why we will test everything 19:13:59 <arthuredelstein> One other thought is, because version 8 is very tall, do we want it to go horizontally beside permissions somehow? 19:14:12 <arthuredelstein> Similar to how the circuit display sits in the torbutton menu now. 19:14:47 <isabela> besides permission you mean TB screen size permission? 19:15:04 <antonela> this is a good point, i have been thinking about it a lot. If we are going to expand the doorhanger, maybe we can 1) reduce the padding inside it 19:15:30 <antonela> 2) yes, have smaller permissions rows 19:15:30 <arthuredelstein> I mean the "Permissions" section in the doorhanger that already exists in Firefox. 19:15:35 <antonela> yes 19:16:11 <arthuredelstein> The circuit will only be super-tall when it's an onion site. 19:16:31 <isabela> true 19:16:32 <arthuredelstein> Another option might be to put it below Permissions, because it's usually going to be taller. 19:16:41 <arthuredelstein> We don't want Permissions to be hard to find. 19:16:54 <antonela> i like it 19:16:59 <isabela> yes 19:17:02 <isabela> i think bellow 19:17:30 <arthuredelstein> anyway, these are small details we can probably continue to play with after the first prototype 19:17:33 <isabela> we should stack below what they normally sees there 19:17:36 <isabela> so they can stil find it 19:17:43 <arthuredelstein> good point 19:17:44 <isabela> arthuredelstein: true 19:18:04 <isabela> so, for this piece, to build the prototype 19:18:11 <GeKo> i am not sure whether below the permissions or not 19:18:12 <isabela> do you need stuff from antonela 19:18:17 <GeKo> i tend to think above is btter 19:18:18 <arthuredelstein> Does the (i) symbol next to Guard link to the same place as "Learn More"? 19:18:34 <GeKo> because this info is more important than the permissions thing 19:18:39 <isabela> arthuredelstein: yes 19:18:39 <GeKo> *better 19:18:54 <isabela> arthuredelstein: tb manual 19:19:19 <isabela> GeKo: i am behind on followying your proposal for the security slider - no script settings thing 19:19:32 <GeKo> no worries 19:19:33 <isabela> but we could explore permissions as giving more features there for user or something 19:19:41 <GeKo> it won't go away :) 19:19:47 <isabela> this is me thinking out loud 19:19:47 <GeKo> yes 19:20:11 <isabela> we can always change it too 19:20:16 <antonela> https://share.riseup.net/#G1QCMIMUNGWHWDS66ZnjBQ 19:20:38 <isabela> :) tx anto 19:20:45 <arthuredelstein> so fast :) 19:21:09 <antonela> on first instance, i placed it between permissions and the url identity just because i think permissions should me at the bottom 19:21:46 <antonela> but i'm thinking right now that it is not fundamental in any way 19:22:07 <antonela> s/me/be 19:22:42 <antonela> also, lets keep in mind that permissions will be taller too if we go in some way with GeKo proposal for security controls 19:22:44 <arthuredelstein> I wonder about the line in between the circuit and the "Load a new Circuit" button. It wonder if users would think they refer to different things 19:22:46 * isabela thinks as a first approach to put it under what the user normally sees there 19:23:18 <isabela> we can change the copy 19:24:09 <antonela> arthur -> https://share.riseup.net/#ASagyh96KNzMi-xNU0PTxQ 19:24:51 <antonela> maybe a subtle 5% gray background will keep it inside the same section, but on a different level 19:25:12 <arthuredelstein> Yeah 19:25:15 <isabela> yeah 19:25:28 <arthuredelstein> sections and subsections :) 19:26:21 <antonela> well, i think it works better -> https://share.riseup.net/#i_-vuvHbehA_sATYhNGaUw 19:26:44 <arthuredelstein> I like it! 19:27:04 <isabela> very productive decision making heehe 19:27:09 <isabela> we think we see we pick 19:27:25 <antonela> i'd like to make some trials with different permissions settings, but it could be the best option 19:27:27 <isabela> i like it too 19:27:44 <isabela> ok 19:27:59 <isabela> i kind of want to move to the discovery feature thing 19:28:03 <isabela> if ppl thinks we can 19:28:05 <arthuredelstein> sounds good 19:28:34 <isabela> and i will also assume that arthuredelstein will ask antonela for whatever needed to move with the display part since its pretty mature already 19:28:47 <isabela> sounds ok? 19:28:54 <antonela> yes 19:28:57 <arthuredelstein> yup, sounds good 19:29:01 <isabela> alright 19:29:15 <isabela> so antonela put together a few options on how to show the user where the feature is 19:29:48 <isabela> this is temporary as we hope to have an onboarding system part of TB (about:tor project) that will be guiding people to where is everything! 19:29:54 <antonela> without affecting the current about:tor page, which all designers in the world wants to redesign 19:29:56 <antonela> ha 19:29:57 <antonela> yes! 19:30:03 <isabela> but as we might roll out this feature before we have that 19:30:08 <isabela> we are doing tihs discovery thing 19:30:33 <isabela> have everyone seem the options antonela created? 19:30:37 <antonela> #24918 19:30:47 <antonela> if not, some marvel links here 19:30:47 <antonela> https://marvelapp.com/59a164g/screen/37879856 19:30:52 <antonela> https://marvelapp.com/59a164g/screen/37879878 19:30:59 <antonela> https://marvelapp.com/59a164g/screen/37879882 19:31:31 <antonela> you can click on the prototype to see how it might work 19:31:42 * isabela picked one already :P 19:32:15 <antonela> basically, we cannot show the feature working in real time at the about:tor page because we dont have a circuit there 19:32:37 <arthuredelstein> right. that is kind of an awkward problem 19:32:38 <GeKo> i need a password 19:33:02 <GeKo> for the marvel links 19:33:06 <isabela> fuen 19:33:07 <antonela> so, move the user to the tor project onion service to show the feature working at the same time we are explaining him how it works, seems powerful 19:33:24 <antonela> Geko: you dont need password, one sec 19:33:54 <isabela> antonela: i would just remove the second banner part 19:34:28 <isabela> antonela: when we click and it takes us to our site onion service, i would open that tab with the door ranger opened if possible and that's it 19:34:39 <arthuredelstein> antonela: So would the "try it now" button take us to the onion site? 19:34:58 <isabela> yes 19:35:03 <isabela> click there 19:35:05 <antonela> isabela: it could be ideal, but im not sure if we can show the doorhanger without js for example 19:35:07 <isabela> it should take you to another screen 19:35:12 <antonela> arthur: yes 19:35:14 <isabela> antonela: true 19:35:15 <antonela> GeKo: did you get it? 19:35:35 <antonela> the doorhanger opened could be cool 19:35:44 <arthuredelstein> that should be doable I expect 19:35:45 <GeKo> antonela: get what? 19:35:49 <GeKo> an email? no 19:36:14 <arthuredelstein> I mean opening the doorhanger automatically for a demo should be doable. 19:36:23 <isabela> nice 19:36:26 <isabela> that would be cool 19:36:39 <isabela> GeKo: you cant access it still? 19:36:47 <isabela> i can upload it on share too 19:36:54 <GeKo> my tor browser is still loading... 19:37:01 <isabela> legit 19:37:06 <antonela> GeKo: it is not under password, you should be able to open it 19:37:14 <antonela> yes one sec let me upload it into share 19:37:59 <antonela> https://share.riseup.net/#Eb8RlK-ij1ZKIycD3jNNOQ 19:38:16 <GeKo> aha, things start to work it seems 19:38:16 <isabela> \o/ 19:38:22 <isabela> of course 19:38:43 <antonela> https://share.riseup.net/#z1KAMzP3NlzWfoEVmxMKfw 19:38:46 <antonela> oh yes 19:38:48 <antonela> :) 19:38:50 <isabela> my bias is in favor of the purple banner 19:39:20 <antonela> we have a cognitive background on that 19:40:24 <arthuredelstein> I'm a little hesitant about sending the user to a live site without them choosing to do so. 19:40:38 <isabela> even if its tpo 19:40:50 <GeKo> i wonder how much space is left on small displays when we show the huge purple thin on the top 19:40:59 <isabela> hehe 19:41:12 <antonela> what if we show the explainer banner on the first onion site they visit? was one of our options during our exploration 19:41:28 <arthuredelstein> Well, it's not tpo, it's scaryjumbleofletters.onion :) 19:41:43 <isabela> well 19:41:46 <isabela> we can do it tpo 19:41:46 <antonela> but again, seems more intrusive that, than show it to them during the "explainer" 19:41:51 <isabela> that still works 19:41:54 <isabela> any site has a circuit 19:42:03 <isabela> the point is for them to find it right away 19:42:28 <isabela> or! 19:42:37 <isabela> we could have a little gif demo instead 19:42:38 <isabela> hehe 19:42:38 <arthuredelstein> yeah, I definitely agree with the point of the onboarding 19:42:51 <isabela> viva los gifs! 19:42:52 <antonela> GeKo: mobile version will have an smaller one :) 30% of the screen could be enough 19:43:02 <GeKo> yeah 19:43:19 <GeKo> but there are even small displays on laptops 19:43:27 <arthuredelstein> Besides unexpected browsing, the other thing I would worry is that browsing to the site be quite slow 19:43:32 <GeKo> "small" 19:43:46 <arthuredelstein> s/site be/site could be/ 19:43:51 <antonela> if we are ok with the banner option, i can mockup each size to see how it looks 19:43:58 <antonela> couldnt be more than 4/5 19:44:30 <isabela> maybe having a gif might be better to show it 19:45:24 <arthuredelstein> What about showing the banner on the first website the user visits, whatever site that happens to be? 19:45:28 <arthuredelstein> Or is that too intrusive? 19:45:40 <GeKo> dunno, i am not the guy for the gif thing because everything moving in my browser without my consent makes me nervous :) 19:45:48 <isabela> hehehe 19:45:54 <antonela> arthuredelstein 19:45:57 <isabela> arthuredelstein: i dont think is intrusive 19:45:58 <antonela> arthuredelstein: i like it! 19:46:07 <isabela> i think is educational 19:46:14 <antonela> we could have an smaller banner also 19:46:23 <isabela> we are not asking for money or anything we are teaching a new thing to them 19:46:25 <arthuredelstein> I mean, it is an interruption, though. Like I was trying to visit some site and then you start trying to educate me :) 19:46:45 <GeKo> what speaks against about:tor with the smaller banner? 19:46:45 <isabela> i think ppl are more used to it nowadays tho 19:46:47 <antonela> yes, we must be sure that it will happen just for first time users 19:46:57 <arthuredelstein> right 19:46:59 <isabela> lots of new features are introduced in the middle of your action, within context 19:47:16 <isabela> and that is because ppl learned is the best way to teach something, within context 19:47:19 <isabela> hehe 19:47:25 <antonela> the best part to showing it in action that the user can understand and incorporate it so fast 19:47:27 <arthuredelstein> GeKo: The problem without about:tor being it's hard to demonstrate the circuit display without a connected site 19:47:28 <GeKo> i see 19:47:33 <GeKo> yeah 19:47:41 <arthuredelstein> although we could simulate a site instead of a real site 19:47:45 <arthuredelstein> for the demo 19:47:53 <arthuredelstein> while we are still at about:tor 19:48:13 <antonela> could we do a fake doorhanger at about:tor to show it during some time? 19:48:19 <arthuredelstein> sure 19:48:27 <antonela> oh 19:48:29 <arthuredelstein> if it makes sense to do so, I don't see why not 19:48:41 <arthuredelstein> I'm not sure if it would be confusing or helpful 19:49:06 <antonela> me either, but i can prototype it and we can see how it feels and/or test 19:49:07 <arthuredelstein> because, like, the URL bar wouldn't have the correct address or (i) symbol 19:49:20 <antonela> you're right 19:49:44 <antonela> but could be a fake tpo, mmm 19:49:45 <arthuredelstein> But maybe there is a way to do it that makes it all clear 19:49:46 <antonela> i'm not sure 19:50:26 <isabela> hmm 19:50:46 <isabela> i think i would want to story board the experience to see if it would feel ok or not 19:50:51 <isabela> like i need to think of all the steps 19:50:56 <arthuredelstein> yeah 19:51:07 <isabela> i launch the browser, about:tor loads, this pops out boom! 19:51:09 <isabela> hehe 19:51:11 <isabela> you know? 19:51:46 <isabela> but 19:52:13 <isabela> maybe if you do say this is a demo you can try or you can just play with it with any site 19:52:14 <arthuredelstein> A simple idea could be a door hanger appears from the (i) symbol on the first site, and says "click here to see [domain]'s circuit". 19:52:22 <antonela> https://share.riseup.net/#L0_2VMp5CwSXu96215N4Gw 19:52:31 <isabela> and then if the person is there and clicks on the demo button we do the fake doorhanger 19:52:43 <antonela> it could be a first time user view for the first onion they visit 19:52:47 <isabela> otherwise the person can just be alright i got it let me move on 19:52:59 <antonela> no fakes, no demos, just it working in the right place at the right time 19:53:02 <isabela> antonela: but that gives a big window no? 19:53:07 <isabela> like this impacts everyones usage 19:53:14 <isabela> not only those who goes to .onion sites 19:53:23 <isabela> should be a first thing they learn when we change 19:53:59 <antonela> isabela: oh yes 19:54:01 <antonela> you are right 19:54:24 <antonela> so, it could be a first time user view for the first website they visit 19:54:36 <isabela> yeah, we are between that or doing a fake demo 19:54:37 <isabela> i think 19:54:47 <antonela> yup 19:54:57 <isabela> ok 19:55:08 <arthuredelstein> Yeah, I'm thinking that on the first site we open a tiny door hanger hanging from the (i) that says "click the (i) to see the Tor circuit" 19:55:31 <isabela> so maybe what we can do (since we are close to the hour) me and antonela can explore new options with this feedback 19:55:34 <GeKo> i am not really happy with the fake demo thing 19:55:42 <arthuredelstein> Or maybe that's very similar to a small banner on the first site 19:55:55 <antonela> arthur, i like your idea 19:56:04 <antonela> if is doable, i'll mockup it 19:56:08 <GeKo> we should not train users to do fake things in the browser 19:56:13 <isabela> arthuredelstein: i like the pointer on the first site they open 19:56:25 <antonela> GeKo: +1 19:56:30 <GeKo> antonela: yes, good idea 19:56:32 <isabela> GeKo: :) true 19:56:36 <GeKo> err arthur i m eant 19:56:47 <isabela> hehe 19:57:29 <antonela> i can work on it this week and upload mockups for the versions we are talking now, both for circuit and the popup/doorhanger helper 19:57:36 <isabela> i also think 19:57:59 <isabela> that we should have something on about:tor too just in case 19:58:15 <antonela> yes, me too, we could have a block at about:tor for new features 19:58:16 <isabela> small little thing about it for the first release it goes out 19:58:18 <isabela> then we remove 19:58:22 <antonela> yep 19:58:38 <isabela> have both stuff 19:58:42 <arthuredelstein> In the longer term, maybe we want a "Tor Browser Tour" like the Firefox Tour? 19:58:45 <isabela> the pointer and a little note on about:tor 19:58:48 <antonela> YEEEES 19:58:55 <isabela> yes that is the goal 19:59:11 <GeKo> yep 19:59:15 <isabela> the thing is that we are going to do that when we have a better idea of the security features stuff that is on GeKo proposal 19:59:34 <arthuredelstein> Then we can have fancy animations and whatever else because user has explicitly shown interest 19:59:37 <arthuredelstein> :) 19:59:39 <isabela> yeah 19:59:43 <isabela> fancy fancy 19:59:46 <antonela> yesss 19:59:49 <GeKo> hehe 19:59:53 <isabela> we are going to have illustrations 19:59:56 <isabela> all pro style 19:59:59 <isabela> legit 20:00:02 <isabela> :) 20:00:05 <arthuredelstein> Requiring 3D glasses I hope 20:00:15 <isabela> hahaha 20:00:28 <isabela> alright, me and antonela can play with this info 20:00:28 <arthuredelstein> 8) 20:00:34 <isabela> antonela: what do you think? 20:00:36 <antonela> yes yes 20:00:42 <antonela> we have a lot of feedback to iterate 20:00:46 <antonela> so i'll work on it 20:01:01 <isabela> yep, and we can bug you guys again when we are ready for another round 20:01:13 <antonela> also, for the security controls proposal, will we have a meeting in rome about it? 20:01:16 <arthuredelstein> awesome, this is very exciting 20:01:24 <isabela> antonela: yep 20:01:31 <antonela> oh cool 20:01:42 <antonela> i have notes/ideas/thingsinmind i'd like to share 20:02:01 <isabela> GeKo: btw really cool ascii mocks :D 20:02:10 <GeKo> ha 20:02:11 <antonela> oh my, i love them 20:02:20 <antonela> thanks for doing it <3 20:02:26 <isabela> yeah :) 20:02:29 <arthuredelstein> that could be a new skin for Tor Browser 20:02:32 <GeKo> i wished i had an excuse to draw more of them :D 20:02:37 <GeKo> i am all for it 20:02:39 <arthuredelstein> all ascii chrome 20:02:40 <isabela> heheheh 20:02:41 <antonela> why we dont have a ascii suport 20:02:42 <antonela> SIIIII 20:02:58 <antonela> an ascii support theme 20:03:14 * antonela opens a ticket lol 20:03:18 <isabela> lol 20:03:20 <isabela> ! ok folks 20:03:26 <isabela> i think i will kill the bot 20:03:32 <isabela> is that ok? 20:03:51 <GeKo> ok, i need to be afk for a while, i'll read the backlog 20:03:55 <isabela> we havent got to 3 yet but i am ok with it, i know we will talk in rome 20:03:58 <GeKo> (in case we have more :)) 20:04:07 <GeKo> kk 20:04:13 <isabela> (3 was about when it will be on the roadmap etc) 20:04:25 <isabela> #endmeeting