14:58:36 <nickm> #startmeeting
14:58:36 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Sep  8 14:58:36 2015 UTC.  The chair is nickm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:58:36 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:58:54 <nickm> isabela made this for us: it's got an agenda at the top
14:59:19 <nickm> so first, did we miss any network team projects?
14:59:45 <karsten> what's "this"?
14:59:55 <asn_> he probably means https://storm.torproject.org/shared/rE40JVMp_lgFiyAQ5LHInseRTAXLySYfk7ckGtKFtwG
15:00:11 <nickm> I do, sorry!
15:00:18 <nickm> some things are filled in, some aren't.
15:01:12 <Yawning> *allows javascript so storm can pwn his box*
15:01:28 <nickm> Also see https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/measurement-roadmap.pdf  , which is Karsten's output from when the measurement team did this
15:01:58 <athena> hi hi
15:02:01 <asn_> very nice doc
15:02:25 <nickm> hi hi athena!
15:02:32 <Yawning> "Loading ..."
15:02:49 <Yawning> *allows even more bullshot*
15:03:12 * nickm adds BridgeDB
15:05:23 * nickm adds the tor specs
15:05:38 * nickm looks over the list of names on the team to see if any remind me of more projects
15:05:49 <asn_> where should onionbalance be?
15:05:49 <nickm> anybody who doesn't see an important project there, please let me know
15:06:03 <asn_> what about the dirauth scripts?
15:06:03 <nickm> There
15:06:08 <dgoulet> I'm not sure if torsocks fits in there ?
15:06:26 <nickm> IMO dirauth scripts and tools are midway between measurement and network.  I'd list them in a new section at the bottom
15:06:29 <nickm> IMO torsocks fits
15:06:42 * dgoulet adding it
15:06:54 * nickm looks at gitweb
15:06:54 <asn_> is bw auth part of network or measurement?
15:07:04 <asn_> it's a dirauth script. but maybe it's measurement/
15:07:19 <nickm> asn_: IMO it could be either, so let's list it.
15:07:29 <nickm> asn_: It makes the network work. OTOH, it's okay for us to have dependencies.
15:08:16 <karsten> the measurement roadmap has the following tools listed as "maybe measurement, maybe network": sybilhunter, exitmap, torflow (bwauth), guard fraction, hidden-service scanner detector.
15:08:23 <asn_> ah
15:08:28 <asn_> interestnig!
15:08:34 <asn_> all dirauth scripts seem to be there!
15:08:43 <karsten> well, to some extent.
15:08:50 <nickm> I agree; they're definitely maybe both. :)
15:09:25 <asn_> should PTs be splitted into little-t-tor PT, and the actual PTs?
15:09:49 <Yawning> maybe?
15:10:07 <nickm> I'm adding a "list of pts" element at the bottom of that section
15:11:08 <isis> i think PTs are a network team tool
15:11:23 <nickm> agreed
15:11:36 <nickm> My definition of network is more or less "It makes bytes go over the wire"
15:11:55 <syverson> mikeperry proposed a plan for padding to reduce netflow resolution. Is that in here anywhere? Should it be?
15:12:41 <nickm> syverson: this is trying to find the active long-term projects under the network team. IMO that would probably not be here, but reasonable folks may disagree
15:12:45 <asn_> karsten: i didn't see consensus-health in the measurement pdf. but i think the project is very important.
15:13:01 <karsten> asn_: that's DocTor and DepicTor.
15:13:10 <karsten> DocTor for email, DepicTor for web.
15:13:17 <asn_> karsten: ack!
15:14:08 <isis> what should we do about tools/products that don't exist yet?
15:14:09 <asn_> tor2web?
15:14:19 <nickm> isis: like what?
15:14:23 <nickm> asn_: I think it's on this one.
15:14:25 <isis> i'm thinking of bridge bwauths
15:14:28 <asn_> ack
15:14:35 <syverson> nickm: OK I mostly asked because it seems related to the plan for synchronous circuit builds I've raised to many. I suppose neither of these counts as active at the moment, but that was kind of my point.
15:14:37 <nickm> isis: IMO that's measurement/network too
15:14:50 <nickm> syverson: we're not talking about projects at that level IMO
15:15:04 <karsten> isis: the measurement roadmap contains a few products which are still under development.
15:15:06 <nickm> syverson: IMO we're talking about projects at the level of "The Tor Daemon"; "The Directory Authorities"; etc
15:15:24 <asn_> ricochet?
15:15:31 <asn_> (just brainstorming here. i'm running out of ideas so i'll stop soon)
15:15:42 <isis> nickm: is it useful to mention things which don't exist yet here?  or just wait until the thing exists and revisit later?
15:15:53 <asn_> isis: like?
15:15:58 <nickm> isis: yes
15:16:05 <nickm> asn_: Ricochet IMO is applications-team
15:16:23 <asn_> sounds reasonable.
15:16:29 <nickm> maybe torsocks should be applications too?  I dunno; I see it as more low-level, but reasonable minds might disagree
15:16:29 <special> agreed
15:16:40 <asn_> "Tor design doc" and "Tor spec" are different?
15:16:53 <nickm> yes
15:17:07 <nickm> https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor-design-2012.git/ is design
15:17:31 <asn_> never heard of that :)
15:18:30 <nickm> I think we're running low on projects.
15:18:31 <asn_> i think im out of brainstorming material.
15:18:39 <nickm> Shall we all just start filling stuff in?
15:18:40 <asn_> next step?
15:18:41 <asn_> ok
15:18:55 <nickm> For "future" i'd suggest that we try to do broad strokes rather then finnicky details
15:19:13 <nickm> Like, no project you could do in less than a month, unless it's earthshaking. :)
15:19:52 <athena> wait, we've had a secret tor-design git all this time? :)
15:19:55 <asn_> nickm: dgoulet: should I put me and you and nick as the lead maintainers of hs?
15:20:10 <asn_> athena: it was "tor secret" that's why we didn't know!
15:21:29 <dgoulet> asn_: depends of definition of "maintainer" here :), but in case of design, patches, development, I would say yes put all those
15:23:13 <isis> oh, atagar appears to be on the pad as "anonymous user" :)
15:23:33 <asn_> that might have been me.
15:23:42 <asn_> i was filling out nyx section
15:24:08 <isis> asn_: ah, okay, i just wanted to make sure i wasn't stepping on atagar's toes by filling in stuff
15:24:17 <karsten> oh, might have been me, too.
15:24:23 <nickm> everybody: feel free to add 'future' stuff to other people's projects!
15:24:41 <toml> nickm: +1
15:29:31 <isis> we have a sekrit tor-design repo?
15:29:38 <isis> what the what?
15:29:49 <nickm> it's on gitweb!
15:29:52 <nickm> https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor-design-2012.git/
15:29:57 <nickm> it's a project to update the design paper
15:30:02 <nickm> last updated in january
15:32:58 <syverson> It's secret. It's not in large font at the top of the homepage at torproject.org
15:34:17 <nickm> teor: listing you first on the chutney list, since you've been doing more chutney than I
15:35:44 <teor> Yes, I was thinking similar thoughts
15:35:54 <meejah> __uguu__: there is TorClientEndpoint to do client-side things, is that maybe what you're looking for?
15:36:11 <nickm> I see nobody writing a section for txtorconn, bridges)
15:36:18 <toml> syverson: too true. We need more persistent pointers for each project. A resource library that can be pushed based on context.
15:36:33 <nickm> meejah: would you like to fill in the txtorconn status section of https://storm.torproject.org/grain/GMNLuioJSwcYCof4hPrPSX/ ?
15:36:42 <nickm> who should write the "bridges" section?
15:36:44 <dgoulet> nickm: when I added "Bridges", I was thinking of "BridgeDB" :)
15:36:50 * asn_ writes bridges
15:36:55 <nickm> ah.  well, bridges != bridgedb
15:37:06 <teor> about putting my name down as de facto maintainer
15:37:09 <nickm> also you should probably list me as a maintainer for anything that requires Tor patches
15:37:11 <dgoulet> yeah, short circuit in my head :)
15:37:22 <nickm> teor: yes?
15:37:33 <meejah> yes I would, but "unauthorized" on that page. i've been meaning to check out storm.tpo more, so maybe I need an invite?
15:37:38 <nickm> teor: I'm doing it in the sense that if somebody writes a chutney patch, I'd love you to have a look at it.
15:38:21 <nickm> isis: can I send meejah a sandstorm invite?  Is that something I have bits for?  If so, how do I do it? :)
15:40:36 <teor> nickm: of course, makes sense, I didn't have a name for that role, but that's how we've been doing it
15:41:03 <nickm> teor: not like it's your responsibility to do anything you don't feel like doing here, or haven't got the time for :)
15:41:15 * nickm gets more coffee, bbiab
15:41:31 <nickm> I've started a new section at the top, "WHO USES THESE TOOLS?"
15:42:15 <teor> yep. but chutney is pretty low-maintenance
15:42:43 * teor is slow at this hour. Timezones and all that
15:44:51 <atagar> karsten: thanks for filling in the nyx and stem sections :)
15:45:26 * nickm goes afk for 3 minutes to make tea; brb
15:45:35 <karsten> atagar: sure. please add anything I missed, but I felt I have recent information about those two that I could add there. :)
15:48:32 <isis> meejah: sign up for a storm account and let me know when you're done and i'll give you privileges
15:50:38 <isis> nickm: you can give meejah privileges by going to "Admin » Users » [find meejahs account] … [click on the dropdown and select «Invited User»]"
15:50:46 <meejah> isis: okay, i just "signed in" via meejah@meejah.ca
15:50:55 <isis> nickm: or i can do it  :)
15:51:18 <meejah> (so I guess I'm @meejah it looks like)
15:51:51 <nickm> I just set it to "invited user"
15:52:46 <nickm> looks like isis is there adding people as invited too
15:53:33 <isis> yeah, kate and other kate, griffin and also griffin, are all now "Invited Users" in storm.tpo
15:54:22 <Yawning> should I create an account
15:54:25 <isis> we know who sjm217 is?  is that steven murdoch?
15:54:30 <nickm> Yawning: might be nice
15:54:32 <Yawning> if nothing bad happens if I don't I won't
15:54:35 <nickm> Yawning: if not too much trouble
15:54:43 <Yawning> k I shall then
15:54:46 <nickm> well, without an account you can't make your own etherpad things here
15:54:52 <phw> karsten: i think the file measurement-products.pdf is missing in your measurement-roadmap branch.
15:54:53 <nickm> isis: yes, that's steven murdoch
15:54:57 <meejah> now i still get 403/unauthorized on the grain nickm linked above, except now I also have the "new"/"open" things as well :) So progress \o/
15:55:00 <nickm> or somebody pretending to be him
15:55:05 <isis> Yawning: if you want to create content, then you need an account, otherwise people have to share stuff with you for you to edit stuffs
15:55:12 <Yawning> well, my development mdoel is still msotly "Yawning's Fortress of Solitude"
15:55:29 <Yawning> so >.>
15:55:46 <nickm> fair enough
15:55:57 <Yawning> where do I go to make an account for this
15:56:03 <atagar> I haven't dealt with the sandstorm instance either. Tried with atagar1@gmail.com and it gave 'unauthorized'.
15:56:04 <Yawning> I'll make one just so I have one
15:56:16 <isis> it's useful, it has like diagramming stuffs and latex compiling stuffs that could be used in a fortress of solitude
15:56:29 <nickm> Just made atagar invited
15:56:34 <atagar> thx :)
15:56:35 <karsten> phw: will add that. (I'm currently making other changes, so that will take a while. hope you're not blocking on this right now.)
15:56:39 <isis> Yawning: just "sign in" and let me know when  you do
15:56:54 <Yawning> sign in where
15:57:03 <Yawning> I've ignored this standstorm thing
15:57:13 <Yawning> so I have no idea where it lives
15:57:22 <isis> Yawning: https://storm.torproject.org
15:57:35 <Yawning> thanks
15:58:06 <phw> karsten: ok.  i'm not working on it, i was just trying to compile it.
15:58:19 <isis> Yawning: oauth is faster, if you're okay with it, otherwise you need to wait for a silly login email with a one-time-link to show up each time you want to login
15:58:32 <Yawning> I'm patient
15:58:36 <meejah> nickm: I think you need to "invite" me to edit GMNLuioJSwcYCof4hPrPSX ?
15:58:37 <nickm> it isn't necessarily "each time" either
15:59:10 <nickm> meejah: I don't know how to do that.
15:59:11 <Yawning> I got the Unauthorized thing
15:59:15 <nickm> isis: do you know?
15:59:24 <Yawning> which means life is probably good
15:59:44 <nickm> invited Yawning
15:59:44 <isis> meejah: you need a link with "shared" in it, not "grain" in it: https://storm.torproject.org/shared/rE40JVMp_lgFiyAQ5LHInseRTAXLySYfk7ckGtKFtwG (from scrollback)
16:00:09 <isabela> !
16:00:09 <isis> uh… i dunno what the unauthoriized thing is
16:00:10 <Yawning> it doesn't have my prefered pronouns
16:00:15 <isabela> just crossed the ocean
16:00:18 <isabela> sorry folks
16:00:34 <meejah> isis: great, thanks that works :)
16:00:39 <isis> the unauthorized thing is prolly just Yawning trying to hack teh gibson
16:00:39 <nickm> hi isa! we're working on your nifty document thing
16:00:59 * isabela was away from her computer had to take subway back home this morning (subway was off the laborday weekend)
16:01:26 <isabela> nickm: great!
16:01:32 <isabela> I am looking at the pad
16:01:43 <nickm> I think we're in a pretty good spot for a brainstorm-and-first-draft
16:01:44 <isis> lol at the passive aggressive rage in the statement "Programmers repurposing our free software" :)
16:01:56 * karsten has to leave. this looks like it's going to be a really useful doc. I'll update you folks (probably via tor-dev@) once I have finally updated the measurement roadmap doc.
16:02:12 <isabela> oi karsten !
16:02:19 <Yawning> isis: add "His Imperial Highness" as a pronoun option plox
16:02:28 <isis> karsten: bye!  thanks for your help!
16:02:57 <nickm> by karsten !
16:02:58 <nickm> *bye
16:03:36 <isis> Yawning: uh… that kind of feature request can go in irc.freenode.net#sandstorm or https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/issues/ :)
16:03:52 <Yawning> oh
16:04:01 <isis> Yawning: (it's fairly hard for me to make changes unless they are merged upstream)
16:04:02 <Yawning> cbf logging into teither of those
16:04:07 <nickm> I'd suggest freeform pronoun boxes instead. You'd get more uptake for those
16:04:16 <isis> nickm++
16:05:01 <isis> it somehow autofilled mine in as "they" which is both eerie and correct
16:05:06 * dgoulet needs food, bbl
16:05:17 <isis> but how did it know?
16:05:18 <nickm> isabela: I'm close to calling the meeting, since we've been at it for an hour, and we've mostly filled it all in .. anything we should do as a final burst of effort?
16:06:00 <Yawning> isis: that's the default
16:06:17 <isabela> go ahead and call it. sorry i missed, got trapped in SF
16:06:37 <isis> Yawning: oh.  that's quite politically correct of them.
16:06:51 <syverson> isis: why eerie? Why wouldn't that be the default?
16:06:58 <isabela> I am reading it and is great
16:07:08 <isabela> 'house of horrors' ;)
16:07:34 <isis> syverson: i didn't realise it was the default, and i assumed it was asking some databank somewhere what my likely pronoun was
16:07:47 <Yawning> isabela: yeah
16:07:48 <syverson> Err as Yawning just said. I'm slow in my reading and typing.
16:07:58 <Yawning> I have a lot of stuff in my github
16:08:06 <isis> heh :)
16:08:09 <nickm> okay.  Thanks, everybody!  Please feel free to keep filling stuff in; I'm calling the meeting now
16:08:10 <syverson> I prefer Sagamore.
16:08:14 <nickm> #endmeeting