16:00:04 <anadahz> #startmeeting
16:00:04 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Feb 20 16:00:04 2017 UTC.  The chair is anadahz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:04 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:34 <anadahz> Hello everybody
16:01:01 <hellais> hello
16:01:10 <darkk> ehlo
16:01:29 <sbs> o/
16:01:59 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> hellos
16:02:06 <hellais> https://pad.riseup.net/p/ooni-irc-pad
16:02:13 <hellais> do we have something to discuss this week?
16:03:00 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> perhaps we could discuss on how to have community meetings that actually reach and engage community members? :slightly_smiling_face:
16:03:51 <anadahz> agrabeli: Great idea!
16:04:47 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I'm suggesting this because, in the end, it's usually just the OONI team and occasional few others who join our Monday meetings
16:05:28 <darkk> agrabeli: do you mean sort of engagement meetings at IFF or online?
16:06:24 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> while we can still continue using IRC for those who wish to reach us on IRC and to have more technical discussions, most of our target audiences (journalists, activists, lawyers, etc.) will probably never join us here
16:06:25 * landers here
16:07:01 <sbs> agrabeli: couldn't they join over slack?
16:07:22 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk: we should interact with people at events like IFF, but it would also be nice to have somewhat regular, online meetings with the broader community as well, via channels that are more accessible by our target audiences
16:07:52 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs: perhaps
16:08:03 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> in any case, I think certain things could be addressed:
16:08:10 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 1. Platform: slack or other?
16:08:30 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 2. Agenda that encourages community members to participate
16:09:29 <hellais> to have the join via slack we would have to setup a slack-invite thingy
16:09:49 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> We need to create a better feedback loop, a better channel for communication with our broader community
16:10:19 <sbs> agrabeli: I agree with the goals
16:10:32 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @hellais: if we create the slack invite thingy, I could share it on popular mailing lists (e.g. global voices, keep it on, etc.)
16:11:27 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> We could/should also advertise this somehow on our website
16:12:00 <sbs> are there any other platforms that we could consider? I briefly considered an interactive meeting using jitsi, but I don't easily see how that can scale; perhaps an hangouts on air is more scalable?
16:12:03 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> These community meetings don't necessarily have to happen on a weekly basis, they could also be bi-weekly
16:12:14 <darkk> does anyone have any specific examples of alike meetings?
16:12:21 <anadahz> agrabeli: how are the mentioned groups communicate now?
16:12:55 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz: the broader IFF community interacts via its own slack or mattermost channel (if I'm not mistaken)
16:13:22 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz: and they are very active on mailing lists
16:13:53 * gargarvar here
16:13:58 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> in any case, we could create OONI community meetings that happen once a week or once every two weeks
16:14:40 <anadahz> agrabeli: perhaps we should start by advertising OONI mailing lists? --since they are familiar with mailing lists.
16:14:49 <anadahz> hi gargarvar
16:15:11 <sbs> agrabeli: makes sense
16:15:15 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs: I'd rather not use jitsi or hangouts or anything that requires VoIP, as having many people on such a channel would make communication harder (though I like the more interactive part)
16:15:35 <sbs> agrabeli: yeah, I was wondering the same
16:15:36 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz: our mailing lists are on the get involved page
16:16:23 <anadahz> darkk: Many groups are using mumble (like the pirate party) for voice-interactive meetings.
16:16:31 <gargarvar> I'd be sad to see IRC go away. Isn't there webchat frontends for OFTC for people less inclined to install an IRC client?
16:16:52 <hellais> gargarvar: IRC would not go away, as a matter of fact agrabeli is now speaking via slack on IRC
16:16:57 <sbs> gargarvar: if we're using slack, IRC will not go away
16:17:00 <sbs> indeed
16:17:11 <gargarvar> it's also harder to be anonymous with some other protocols, e.g. voice
16:17:20 <sbs> gargarvar: good point
16:17:25 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @gargarvar: yep!
16:17:39 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I think something like slack or mattermost would probably do it
16:18:06 <sbs> so, basically, the action item is to setup a way to invite interested parties in slack (or, IRC, if they prefer)
16:18:10 <darkk> do we know someone who's wanting to join and is stopped by uglyness of IRC interface? IMHO, it's not the media that creates community (changing the media to create community sounds a bit cargo-cultish), but annoying media may be a barrier (noone wants to install IRC client^W^W another messenger just to join groupchat)
16:18:30 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk: that's a good point
16:18:47 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I agree that the medium in itself is not the main barrier, but rather the agenda in itself
16:18:51 <andresazp__> As
16:19:10 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> i.e. people are more inclined to join a discussion if the topics involved interest them and if they feel encouraged to participate
16:19:12 <anadahz> agrabeli: good point created https://github.com/TheTorProject/ooni-web/issues/118
16:19:12 <darkk> IRC has a drawback, it's not "sticky"
16:19:27 <andresazp> As some one not part of the ooni team, I can confirm people I work with are turned off by IRC
16:19:34 <sbs> darkk: what do you mean?
16:19:45 <sbs> darkk: no easy history?
16:19:52 <darkk> as soon as you've joined mailing list, you have to do _action_ to unsubscribe (same is true with apps & messengers), with IRC you close the app and never come back (unless you have a reason)
16:20:07 <sbs> ah, I see
16:20:08 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz: thanks but the mailing lists are already advertised on the get involved page of the site
16:21:33 <anadahz> agrabeli: Perhaps we should also add them also on the contact page.
16:21:45 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> so given that we have agreed on the platform to engage community members (e.g. slack), then the question is how to attract them to meetings and how to encourage their participation
16:21:46 <sbs> anyway, I think that, having the bridge between IRC and slack, we already have a channel that should be good enough, so yes, we should probably talk about an agenda that is more involving
16:21:54 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz: +1
16:22:44 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> we need to have a specific place where they can add topics they would like to discuss during community meetings
16:22:45 <sbs> by the way, do we know if anybody has used trello to provide us feedback about apps? (Speaking of involvement...)
16:22:46 <anadahz> darkk: There is no need to install an irc client as users can interact from a web irc client such as https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.oftc.net/ooni
16:22:49 <gargarvar> low hanging fruit might be to do a reachout to develop/curate country-specific blocklists
16:23:40 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @gargarvar: are the blocklists you're referring to different to test lists?
16:24:05 <gargarvar> no the same thing
16:24:20 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @gargarvar: we quite regularly update test lists, though this is meant to be a continuous process and so more community involvement would be important!
16:25:30 <andresazp> The VE inteligente team can do a pull request this month updating our own lists to Citizen Lab’s
16:25:58 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs: re: the trello feature requests board --- yes we have received new feedback, but most of it is about translations
16:26:16 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @andresazp: awesome! :)
16:26:29 <andresazp> (for Venezuela)
16:27:17 <sbs> agrabeli: okay, well, good to know it was useful!
16:27:39 <hellais> I think the main question I have regarding all of this is 1. Who exactly would be like to have attend these meetings (are we interested in reaching out more to devs, to activists, to journalists, data analysis, carpenders?) 2. If say our $TARGET joins what do we expect to be discussing with them $HERE?
16:29:10 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @hellais: 1.) Ideally, it would be broad members from the target audience (existing partners, journalists, data analysts, etc.). But we would need to create an outreach strategy to reach and engage them, 2.) The topics to be discussed would depend on the agenda items.
16:29:21 <anadahz> hellais: usually our weekly meeting discussion differ depending on the agenda topics and the participants
16:29:24 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> On this note, I suggest the following:
16:29:59 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 1. We create a wiki or a pad or a sth where community members can add topics they want to discuss at the next meeting
16:30:13 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 2. If we have enough submitted topics, we formulate the agenda based on them
16:30:41 <hellais> anadahz: yeah, but what I am saying is, what is the ideal outcome. What are the expectations?
16:30:51 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 3. If we don't have enough submitted topics, then we formulate the agenda based on other topics that we add (or we end the meeting short, or we skip it altogether)
16:31:24 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @hellais: I guess the main expectations can be summarized as follows:
16:31:27 <hellais> becuase if we get a bunch of people to join here and then we do as usual that we either have no agenda or an agenda that is highly technical, that will probably be their first and last meeting
16:31:33 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 1. Gain a better understanding of our users' needs
16:31:57 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 2. Share skills/knowledge/point to sources that can help community members
16:32:44 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 3. Share ideas on how to improve our methodologies in terms of test lists, network measurement tests, data analysis, etc.
16:33:48 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> For example, we could announce a "community meeting for data analysts", which we advertise to "data analysis circles". Then we could encourage them to provide feedback on a specific set of questions that we (and they) may have.
16:34:21 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> In short, rather than having community meetings cover a wide range of topics, perhaps we could tailor each meeting's agenda based on a specific area
16:34:42 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> That way, people could join based on the community meeting which is closest to their interests and area of expertise
16:34:54 <anadahz> hellais: usually people joined with specific topics that wanted to bring forward
16:35:13 <darkk> another way is not to _create_ community, but to _join_ existing one
16:35:28 <anadahz> I suggest everyone to have a look to the previous meeting logs - http://meetbot.debian.net/ooni/
16:35:29 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> So we could say that this week's meeting is for journalists, next week's meeting is for lawyers, etc etc etc
16:36:30 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk: which community do you think we could/should join?
16:37:06 <darkk> e.g. if we have something interesting to data scientists (whatever it is: discussion, research), we can speak to existing DS community (there are lots of them out there), I'm unsure if same reasoning applies to lawyers & journalists (I have zero experience with that sort of professionals)
16:37:43 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk: that's a great idea!
16:37:56 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Then how about we kind of do a combination of both approaches?
16:38:34 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Joining existing communities to tap into their expertise (e.g. data scientists), while also creating a separate channel for NGO-related community members to contact us and discuss their needs that are specific to ooniprobe?
16:40:22 <sbs> why should the channel != #ooni?
16:41:40 <sbs> I mean, I interpret "separate channel" as "not #ooni" but maybe that's not the case?
16:42:21 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs: the channel can remain as ooni.
16:42:44 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe we can replace our weekly meetings with more community-oriented meetings
16:43:09 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> where we encourage community members to share agenda topics in advance (through the usual pad, for example)
16:43:31 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> and perhaps these could be bi-weekly meetings, instead of weekly ones
16:43:44 <sbs> okay, right: I think it makes sense, because back in the days internal meetings used to be used to do sync up within the team but now we already do this in many other ways
16:43:57 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs: yep
16:44:40 <sbs> regarding sharing the agenda in advance, I'm wondering whether a white agenda for day X would perhaps be too intimidating to person Y
16:45:15 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs: good point. Instead of sharing a blank pad, we could include categories under which they could include topics
16:45:30 <sbs> but the model "come and ask" is clearly not working (don't know whether it's because we discuss too much about things that are internal-ish or whether it's due to other reasons)
16:45:48 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> or, the pad could include questions, and under each question they fill-out their topics
16:46:01 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs: agreed
16:46:40 <darkk> (sidenote) IMHO we don't have that large community for synchronous meetings to be productive (I mean we have ~ 0.2 newcomers a week)
16:46:45 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> We could have a standard set of questions that we ask, and those questions can trigger specific topics to discuss
16:47:21 <sbs> darkk: lol, you computed it? :)
16:47:30 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk: I agree that we have almost no newcomers in our meetings, and that is precisely why I am suggesting what I am suggesting
16:48:04 <sbs> yeah
16:48:09 <darkk> can't we just drone^W SPAM^W outreach all the people who have written a single message to contact@ with some invitation to (for example) our favorite ooni-talk mailing list to concentrate alive souls there? there are people coming via that channel, but churn rate is quite high :)
16:48:13 <andresazp> If I can chime in. One of the reasons “come and ask” might not work for you so much us IRC itself that is very intimidating for folks in other communities and the fact that it´s only useful duing a meeting or if you always have IRC on the background
16:48:27 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk: We have almost no new comers because: (1) not many people know about these meetings, (2) IRC turns off a lot of people, (3) We haven't encouraged them to participate in a practical way.
16:49:19 <sbs> andresazp: thanks, very good point... when I say "too much internal-ish" I feared precisely a sort of intimidation effects (I was intimidated during my first meetings, I now remember that)
16:50:34 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> OK so given that ooniprobe mobile app just launched and we have many new users, this is a great opportunity to do a little experiment
16:50:50 <sbs> andresazp: what kind of discussion would you like to see, e.g., in the nex meeting or in meeting X and what kind of discussion could be interesting to people that you know are a bit intimidateed currectly?
16:50:54 <sbs> * currently
16:51:21 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I'll create a (new) pad (the current one might be a bit off-putting) that I'll circulate the digital rights mailing lists, encouraging them to submit topics for discussion and to join our meeting next Monday
16:51:40 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> in the mean-while, we should create that slack-invite thingy that @hellais was referring to
16:51:50 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> and let's see who joins next week and how it works out
16:51:53 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> what do you say?
16:52:13 <hellais> that sounds good
16:52:26 <sbs> yeah, let's do it!
16:52:27 <darkk> yolo! in the worst case we'll get some dead crickets' heads :)
16:53:03 <andresazp> sbs: Well, my interests are all about getting ooni deployments, partnerships with the ooni team and extending the ecosystem of tools around ooni for specific needs.
16:53:05 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> kk
16:53:12 <andresazp> but that´s just me
16:53:54 <andresazp> however I do know that devs in my circle in my country are just not fond of IRC
16:53:55 <sbs> well, I guess this topic may be of interest of other partners too
16:54:14 <sbs> what do they use? would slack be an improvement?
16:54:29 <anadahz> agrabeli: I like it!
16:55:09 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @andresazp: great to hear that you're interested in a partnership with us! We could discuss your specific needs on a private channel if you like. I'm reachable at maria@openobservatory.org.
16:55:39 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs: I guess we'll have to start off with slack and see how that works
16:55:50 <anadahz> #agreed encouraging more people to submit topics for discussion and to join our meeting next Monday
16:55:52 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> and if it doesn't, we could consider other channels
16:56:01 <andresazp> I think Slack would be an improvement for sure, It also ets you IRC integration. Not sure how easy is to get a mattermost instace up and running, I´ve heard it’s a bit daunting
16:56:04 <darkk> Slack is quite good, in my circle it's usually either Slack or Telegram
16:57:05 <sbs> ack
16:57:31 <darkk> ah, and Skype! how could I forget it! (sorry, valdikss)
16:57:55 <andresazp> Telegram could be nice, I imagine NGOs with less technical base getting on board with that
16:58:51 <sbs> well, then maybe in the future we can also consider something like https://github.com/FruitieX/teleirc
16:58:57 <anadahz> andresazp: What are you using mainly for interactive communication?
16:59:09 <darkk> (another sidenote) I know "tinfoilers" who hate telegram as it requires phone number and uploads address book to the cloud
16:59:26 <andresazp> I know Telegram is somewhat controversial in the community
16:59:58 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> well let's start off with inviting people to slack next week, see how that goes, and iterate further there onwards
17:00:02 <andresazp> Our team comuniction is split between signal and slack
17:01:03 <andresazp> but most NGO type folks in latam are very familiar with telegram
17:02:03 <hellais> this is the slack invite thingy I was talking about: https://github.com/rauchg/slackin
17:02:15 <hellais> it would probably have to live on slack.openobservatory.org
17:02:33 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @hellais yep
17:03:56 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> another thing in encouraging people to attend is informing them in advance (and not during the same day as we normally do)
17:04:06 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> anyway, we'll try things a bit differently next week
17:04:11 <sbs> true
17:04:19 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> is there anything else someone would like to discuss?
17:04:27 <sbs> fwiw, at nexa we usually don't have meetings on monday
17:04:35 <darkk> I'd also say, s/To: ooni-dev@/To: ooni-talk@/ in announce :)
17:04:40 <sbs> because announcing them is not so effective
17:04:46 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk: yep
17:04:55 <sbs> we announce them in advance, and send reminders one day before
17:05:06 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs: +1
17:05:28 <anadahz> good points agrabeli and sbs
17:05:33 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs: should we consider having the meetings on Tuesdays then?
17:06:01 <anadahz> hellais: I can have a look on the deployment of slack invite
17:06:04 <sbs> yeah
17:06:11 <sbs> ^^^ agrabeli
17:06:31 <hellais> anadahz: that would be great. You will probably need to create some API tokens and such, ping me with what you need
17:07:00 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz: thanks!
17:07:25 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Anyone disagree with having our meeting next week same time on Tuesday?
17:08:00 <anadahz> agrabeli: Same time?
17:08:10 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz: yes
17:08:31 <andresazp> Before everyone logs off, I would like to ask for a small favor
17:09:23 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @andresazp: sure
17:11:57 <hellais> andresazp: tell us :)
17:13:43 <andresazp> We need some ooni reports for ndt tests, we haven’t integrantes that in our probes
17:14:30 <andresazp> so we dont have ndt data we can use in the development of our case management interface
17:15:38 <sbs> do you mean that you need sample ndt reports or pointers to real reports from VE?
17:15:48 <andresazp> any country would be fine
17:16:20 <andresazp> just to load some dummy data that we know is realistic
17:16:21 <hellais> andresazp: this is a report from a couple of days ago from venezuela: https://s3.amazonaws.com/ooni-public/sanitised/2017-02-19/20170218T161753Z-VE-AS8048-ndt-20170218T161756Z_AS8048_N25eKPtaOiCjCuxRB8Zo8F2Hij3wSBVeAGDU9e7SfKU1Hebi7y-0.2.0-probe.json
17:16:36 <andresazp> it’s probably us testing the app lol
17:16:42 <sbs> :-)
17:16:43 <darkk> andresazp: more at https://measurements.ooni.torproject.org/api/v1/files?test_name=ndt
17:17:12 <andresazp> great, excellent
17:17:16 <andresazp> thank you so much
17:17:50 <andresazp> we tried to point the app to aour collectro but ran ran into trouble changing it to HTTP
17:18:17 <hellais> andresazp: one thing to be careful is that if you see the test_keys->simple->download key missing it means that the NDT server is blocked
17:18:26 <sbs> what kind of trouble? (we can have this discussion after the meeting or via email, if you wish)
17:19:48 <andresazp> hellais: very important, thank you
17:21:23 <andresazp> sbs: I have a team meeting in minutes, but the proeblem was more of familiarity with the recent versions of the collector as the person who set it up this time is away
17:22:27 <sbs> andresazp: ack
17:23:53 <andresazp> darkk: I should definitly familiarize myself with that API
17:24:21 <sbs> andresazp: let us know if you need further help with that (afaict, it should work with http and we tested it with http in the past)
17:25:04 <sbs> andresazp: if that may be helpful, this is a minimal collector that discards input, written in node: https://github.com/bassosimone/measurement-kit-collector
17:25:24 <andresazp> we use it with the hidden service, I wanted to try http to get ndt test reports from the app
17:25:35 <andresazp> sbs: thanks
17:25:54 <anadahz> andresazp: which version of the app was it?
17:25:55 <darkk> sbs: btw, one of the reasons to use teleirc and all other *→IRC gateways is MeetBot (have not thought of it before), thanks for bringing it
17:25:57 <hellais> sbs: could it be that we disallow insecure collectors?
17:26:25 <sbs> darkk: ah, yes!
17:26:32 <sbs> hellais: I don't think so
17:26:48 <andresazp> it was not the app at fault
17:27:12 <sbs> (is the meeting still running? if so, we should really close it at 18:30, otherwise, we need to keep it open until 19:00 CET)
17:27:33 <anadahz> ok going to terminate this meeting
17:27:46 * sbs makes mental note to check whether we disallow insecure collectors
17:27:50 <anadahz> also since no one mentioned anything:
17:28:00 <anadahz> #agreed Change of OONI weekly meeting date to Tuesday (was: Monday)
17:28:12 <anadahz> Thanks everyone for attending!
17:28:16 <anadahz> #endmeeting