12:00:29 <Kamping_Kaiser> #startmeeting
12:00:30 <MeetBot> Meeting started Sun Oct 23 12:00:29 2011 UTC.  The chair is Kamping_Kaiser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00:30 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00:39 <Kamping_Kaiser> #topic introductions
12:01:03 <Kamping_Kaiser> agenda (as it is) can be found on https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Meetings/2011-10-23
12:01:12 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: now :)
12:01:24 <pabs> I'm Paul Wise, came to Debian through Knoppix, working on http://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census
12:01:34 * pabs done
12:02:13 <dba> I'm Daniel Baumann, DD, working on http://www.progress-linux.org/.
12:02:53 <Kamping_Kaiser> I'm Karl Goetz, generaly Kamping_Kaiser on irc. I've contributed directly to Ubuntu, Debian and gNewSense over the last 5 years. I am sort of here to represent gNewSense, and to try and work on how we DTRT by our upstream (Debian)
12:03:10 <devil> hi, Ferdinand Thommes, for siduction, not released yet
12:03:24 <dba> Kamping_Kaiser: DTRT?
12:03:27 <bluewater> I am Trevor Walkley ,  dev on aptosid
12:03:43 <Kamping_Kaiser> dba: do the right thing
12:04:38 <Kamping_Kaiser> thats two with sid in the name already
12:04:48 <pabs> hi waldi, jmphilippe, just doing introductions now. logs at http://meetbot.debian.net/debian-derivatives/2011/debian-derivatives.2011-10-23-12.00.log.txt
12:04:50 <Kamping_Kaiser> i'll give it another minute incase anyone else has an introduction, then we'll move on
12:05:00 <jmphilippe> hi there!
12:05:03 <devil> Kamping_Kaiser: the 2 are related also :)
12:05:06 <petani> hi, iam agus purnomo , i documentation team dan community team from blankon linux
12:05:41 <waldi> hi. i'm Bastian Blank. DD, just interrested
12:05:43 <petani> sorry my english difficult
12:06:04 <nthykier> I am Niels Thykier, DD, just interested
12:06:26 <Kamping_Kaiser> devil: :)
12:06:37 * knopper has to leave in a minute due to appointment constraints, unfortunately (or at last, turn into idle state). Klaus Knopper, debian user but not debian developer, working on Knoppix which is rather a preconfigured debian installation for live media use than a separate distribution (no forked packages, just changed configs & boot scripts). http://knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html
12:06:57 <devil> hi & bye knopper :)
12:07:06 <Kamping_Kaiser> ^ ++
12:07:26 <jmphilippe> I'm Jean-Michel, I've been using Debian since 2006 and launched DoudouLinux last year
12:07:41 <zeha> Hi, I'm Christian Hofstaedtler, a Grml developer
12:07:44 <Kamping_Kaiser> jeremiah_: is from maemo, hopefully he will come alive (his agenda item is one of the big ones we have for today/ongoing)
12:08:47 <Kamping_Kaiser> no more introductions? thats a pretty healthy number already
12:09:55 <Kamping_Kaiser> ok, lets move on
12:09:55 <pabs> some of the other nicks might be listed in the derivatives census: http://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/CensusFull
12:10:12 <Kamping_Kaiser> #link http://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/CensusFull
12:11:27 <Kamping_Kaiser> buxy: here for the meeting?
12:11:35 <buxy> Kamping_Kaiser: yes
12:11:46 <Kamping_Kaiser> buxy: we're about to end introductions if you'd like to slip yours in :)
12:12:38 <buxy> Well, ok, Raphaël Hertzog, DD, Package Tracking System Administrator, and I'm generally interested in collaboration with derivatives
12:13:08 <Kamping_Kaiser> ta :)
12:13:12 <Kamping_Kaiser> #topic DEX (Debian DErivatives eXchange)
12:13:42 <Kamping_Kaiser> We don't seem to have any ubuntu people, so i suspect this will be a brief topic
12:13:50 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: would you like to say a few words on it?
12:14:03 * ajmitch is an ubuntu person lurking, but sleeping soon
12:14:16 <Kamping_Kaiser> #link http://wiki.debian.org/DEX
12:14:32 <Kamping_Kaiser> ajmitch: were you involved/are you able to talk about dex?
12:15:03 <ajmitch> not particularly involved, so I couldn't really say much
12:15:15 <pabs> ok, so DEX is about teams of people from Debian and derivatives working together to get specific classes of changes merged into Debian
12:15:21 <g7> hello all
12:15:32 <g7> sorry for the delay :)
12:15:43 <buxy> note that DEX is not Ubuntu specific so it should not really matter much if Ubuntu people are there or not, although the only successful "campaign" was a Ubuntu related one
12:16:10 <Kamping_Kaiser> g7: np, we're discussing dex
12:16:17 <g7> ok
12:16:19 <nthykier> Has there been more than one campaign?
12:16:51 <pabs> there was the Ubuntu ancient-patches campaign and the Ubuntu large-merges campaign (stalled)
12:17:09 <pabs> the ancient-patches one was completed successfully
12:17:44 <pabs> I seem to remember Grml folks wanted to work on a DEX campaign? perhaps Rhonda, mikap could chime in?
12:18:03 <Kamping_Kaiser> nhandler has been working on some tools to view the status of dex work as its done and sending monthly (ish) updates about it
12:18:27 <pabs> are there any folks from derivatives with ideas for new campaigns?
12:18:45 <Kamping_Kaiser> #info DEX is about teams of people from Debian and derivatives working together to get specific classes of changes merged into Debian
12:19:06 <Kamping_Kaiser> #info DEX is not Ubuntu specific, although the only successful "campaign" to date was a Ubuntu related one
12:20:11 <jmphilippe> what is the condition to start a campaign?
12:20:26 <Kamping_Kaiser> the gNewSense infrastructre and dev team aren't really big enough for a dex yet. i need to become properly active again before i can start doing those sort of pushes
12:20:44 <Kamping_Kaiser> (i think a lot of our changes are against oldstable still, so we probably wouldn't have a lot of useful stuff to push)
12:21:23 <Kamping_Kaiser> jmphilippe: aiui, anything with defined (realisistic) goals
12:21:25 <pabs> jmphilippe: the process isn't well defined, but I would think: identify a group/type/set of changes and form a team to work on merging those changes
12:21:51 <pabs> devil_: log if you missed something: http://meetbot.debian.net/debian-derivatives/2011/debian-derivatives.2011-10-23-12.00.log.txt
12:22:44 <jmphilippe> ok
12:22:45 <pabs> for those who are interested in DEX & Ubuntu there are some campaign ideas here: http://dex.alioth.debian.org/ubuntu/
12:22:56 <Kamping_Kaiser> #help wanted from any derivative willing to do a dex
12:23:39 <Kamping_Kaiser> #info a dex project should be  a group/type/set of changes with defined goals for merging, with a team to work on merging those changes
12:24:06 <devil_> pabs: thanks
12:24:40 <Kamping_Kaiser> any of the attending derivs think they might have merges suitable for a dex project?
12:25:22 <Kamping_Kaiser> (I'm going to give this topic a few more min then move on to pabs' scripts, i suspect with time they will show us all what we need to merge :))
12:26:03 <pabs> I have one I can think of that all derivs would be interested in: factoring out Debian branding into branding packages
12:26:30 <dba> very much so, yes.
12:26:39 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: absoltely
12:26:53 <g7> would be cool
12:26:54 <Kamping_Kaiser> #info dex project for all derivs (and debian) factoring out Debian branding into branding packages
12:27:12 <Kamping_Kaiser> #help to try and get the process of factoring out Debian branding into branding packages rolling
12:27:18 <pabs> I personally don't have time to push such a project but would welcome someone to organise a team for it
12:27:22 <g7> (anyway, I'm Eugenio Paolantonio from Semplice)
12:28:10 <nthykier> As a maintainer of a "Debian-branded" package, is there any guidelines to assist in making the package easier to re-brand?
12:28:12 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: i'd like to (as its a pet peeve), but i'll have to decide that at another point
12:29:10 <pabs> nthykier: not using the Debian logo or the word Debian if at all possible
12:29:22 <pabs> nthykier: which package btw?
12:29:38 <Kamping_Kaiser> #info nhandler has been working on some tools to view the status of dex work as its done and sending monthly (ish) updates about it. info at [[DEX/dextools]]
12:29:42 <Kamping_Kaiser> #link http://wiki.debian.org/DEX/dextools
12:29:49 <nthykier> pabs: I am thinking of Lintian (both the references and the html reports)
12:30:21 <waldi> nthykier: lintian is tied to the Debian policy, isn't?
12:30:33 <pabs> nthykier: I guess you could factor out the branding into configuration files. the lintian vendor stuff helps a lot too
12:30:37 <Kamping_Kaiser> (thinking ahead) a base-branding and or distro-branding with artwork would be great, with all packages diverting to use it/referencing it instead of local copies
12:31:20 <pabs> there is desktop-base, but I don't think thats a great implementation (as a I said recently on the debian-desktop list)
12:31:37 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: do you have a #link handy?
12:31:45 <Kamping_Kaiser> i'd like to look it up 'later'
12:32:05 <pabs> http://lists.debian.org/debian-desktop/2011/10/msg00014.html
12:32:13 <Kamping_Kaiser> and when it comes to de-branding, there is a lot to be desired (not trying to have a go at people, just stating how i've found things)
12:32:16 <Kamping_Kaiser> thanks
12:32:39 <Kamping_Kaiser> #link http://lists.debian.org/debian-desktop/2011/10/msg00014.html
12:33:25 <pabs> I think a good start to doing de-branding will be to look at the packages most commonly patched by derivatives
12:34:20 <Kamping_Kaiser> shall we discuss this now, or save it for the list?
12:34:38 * pabs guesses list
12:34:49 <Kamping_Kaiser> i'm leaning towards the list (in jeremiah_ 's absense we might put his topic off for next time and finish with pabs' scripts)
12:34:57 <Kamping_Kaiser> lets do that then
12:35:28 <Kamping_Kaiser> anyone else got things to add on this subject?
12:36:29 <DonKult> nthykier: for changing packages on buildtime based on distro building it 'dpkg-vendor' tool can be used
12:36:49 <petani> i learning
12:37:32 <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. lets move on
12:37:51 <Kamping_Kaiser> #topic pabs' distro diff scripts
12:38:10 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: an overview please, or whatever you wanted to bring up about them :)
12:38:10 <pabs> so earlier this year I started the derivatives census: http://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census
12:38:24 <Kamping_Kaiser> #link http://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census
12:38:28 <pabs> to gather information about what derivatives are doing into one place
12:38:47 <pabs> and then start to integrate that information into Debian infrastructure: http://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Integration
12:39:16 <Kamping_Kaiser> #link http://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Integration
12:39:23 <pabs> the first project was Planet Debian Derivatives, aggregating derivatives blogs: http://planet.debian.org/derivs/
12:39:43 <Kamping_Kaiser> #info derivatives census to gather information about derivatives and integrate that information into Debian infrastructure
12:39:53 <mikap> pabs: i'm at the FAI developer meeting, if it's about a meeting right now i sadly can't attend (wrote that to Kamping_Kaiser back when doodle was started IIRC)
12:40:21 <pabs> mikap: yeah, meeting in progress, sorry for the noise
12:40:22 <Kamping_Kaiser> mikap: indeed you did, sorry if i ping spammed you
12:40:49 <mikap> pabs: Kamping_Kaiser: no problem, thanks for reminding and enjoy the meeting! looking forward to read about its results
12:41:01 <Kamping_Kaiser> mikap: have fun irl :)
12:41:04 <pabs> so the next integration project I have been working on is something a bit more useful
12:41:27 <Kamping_Kaiser> #info first project was aggregating derivatives blogs
12:41:59 <devil_> http://planet.debian.org/derivs/ is 404
12:42:23 <g7> delete the last s
12:42:31 <pabs> I'm using the apt sources.list information from the census to find new and modified source packages in Debian derivatives and diff the modified ones against the relevant versions, based on the snapshot.debian.org database and source packages
12:42:42 <pabs> woops, apologies for the typo
12:42:45 <Kamping_Kaiser> #link http://planet.debian.org/deriv
12:43:23 <devil_> g7: works, zhxx
12:43:27 <g7> :)
12:44:06 <pabs> the script I am using is mostly done and I've rsynced partial results to the census results page, currently http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/
12:44:19 <Kamping_Kaiser> #link http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/
12:44:53 <pabs> #info the patches directory contains patches for each modified package
12:44:54 <Kamping_Kaiser> #info work in progress results of the script are availble
12:45:35 <pabs> #info the debug log files for the patch generation script are sources.log in each derivative subdir
12:46:06 <pabs> #info the sources.links files list links to modified source packages
12:46:24 <pabs> #info the sources.new files list links to source packages that were never in Debian
12:46:54 <pabs> #info the sources.patches files are an index of the produced and possible useful patches
12:47:46 <pabs> several of the derivatives census pages don't include deb-src lines or do not have a sources.list at all so those aren't included in the patch generation
12:47:51 <Kamping_Kaiser> having per patch changes generated for each packge is very cool, except the first gNS one i looked at i'd left the .bzr dir in the patch -.-
12:48:51 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: is there a todo for the scripts/a way derivs can help hack the bits that interest them/
12:48:59 <Kamping_Kaiser> s#/#?#
12:49:00 <pabs> yeah, a lot of the patches are raw. I need to figure out a set of files that can be ignored to decide if a patch is "useful" enough to present on Debian infrastructure or not
12:49:43 <pabs> there are some FIXMEs in the source code but most of what needs doing is properly filtering those patches for presentation to Debian maintainers
12:50:01 <pabs> and the PTS/QA infra stuff to do the presentation
12:50:19 <pabs> so now I would like to invite some comments/questions about the patch stuff
12:50:26 <Kamping_Kaiser> #help with the scripts would be good, a working knowledge of python/shell required
12:51:07 <pabs> #help with presenting the results to Debian through the PTS and other QA infrastructure needed too
12:51:52 <pabs> I was hoping mehdi would be here, he runs http://ubuntudiff.debian.net/ which I believe would be useful for the presentation side of things
12:51:57 <Kamping_Kaiser> #info look for the FIXMEs in the source tree. available at git://git.debian.org/git/dex/census.git
12:52:29 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: would an action to contact him be apropriate?
12:52:56 <Kamping_Kaiser> i forgot to action the branding thing too - oops
12:53:58 <pabs> Kamping_Kaiser: I poked him just before and invited him to the meeting earlier this week
12:54:06 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: ok
12:55:30 <Kamping_Kaiser> anyone got questions/comments for pabs on the distro scripts?
12:56:13 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: mine is: once i've run 'make' and got all the apt caches, what do i do with it then?
12:56:39 <zeha> well, can it be arranged that the diffs for Grml exclude the grml-stable distribution?
12:56:59 <pabs> Kamping_Kaiser: run make check, that will check the hashes and produce a log of missing ones
12:57:06 <waldi> pabs: is there a reason why it lists empty diffs?
12:57:25 <pabs> zeha: I think that would be a presentation layer thing (showing only the most recent version)
12:57:52 <pabs> waldi: when the .dsc .diff.gz and orig.tar.gz have a different hash to Debian but identical contents
12:57:58 <waldi> ah
12:58:42 <pabs> waldi: other weird stuff includes sources packages with a modified .dsc, changelog-only uploads and deltas that are hundreds of megabytes
12:59:01 * waldi .( chromium thinks the census page is in spanish and asks if it should translage it )
12:59:31 <pabs> waldi: #635524 (help welcome)
13:00:36 <waldi> pabs: well. i'm moinmoin upstream
13:01:03 <pabs> waldi: aha, perhaps we can discuss this in #debian-www after?
13:01:05 <pabs> the gigantic-deltas thing is a result of the overzealousness of the script in trying to find something to diff against
13:01:32 <Kamping_Kaiser> should any of this be turned into #info/#action/#help ? (and is there any other input on this topic?)
13:01:41 <pabs> nah
13:02:21 <Kamping_Kaiser> #info script still has quirks, ask questions in OFTC/#debian-derivatives if you have any.
13:02:34 <Kamping_Kaiser> if we're done with that topic i'm going to wrap up the meeting
13:03:03 <pabs> #info the gigantic-diffs quirk is currently one of the main blockers for deploying the script permanently
13:03:55 <Kamping_Kaiser> #topic wrap up
13:04:00 <pabs> #action pabs to invite more feedback on the script results on the debian-derivatives list
13:04:21 <Kamping_Kaiser> oops, sorry. i was a little fast there
13:04:26 <pabs> np :)
13:04:54 <Kamping_Kaiser> letting everyone know i'll email out about this now, and update the wiki page. might not be perfect, but i'll fix it up tomorrow *cough* today *cough*
13:05:36 <Kamping_Kaiser> Ill try and organise another meeting last week of november, first week of december (i'd like to go monthly, first week of month or or mid month)
13:06:55 <pabs> thanks everyone for coming!
13:07:03 <Kamping_Kaiser> Unless there is anymore last minute stuff, i'll end the meeting in a moment :)
13:07:21 <petani> alhamdullilah
13:07:25 <petani> syukron
13:08:41 <Kamping_Kaiser> #endmeeting