17:00:07 <pwaring> #startmeeting DC25 orga team meeting. Agenda: https://deb.li/dc25meet
17:00:07 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Feb 25 17:00:07 2025 UTC.  The chair is pwaring. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:07 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:11 <pwaring> #topic Roll call
17:00:15 <pwaring> as always, say hi if you're here
17:00:17 <gwolf> o/
17:00:25 <Giyeonbang[m]> O/
17:00:31 <EnkelenaH[mds]> hi
17:00:32 <bensmrs> o/
17:00:33 <Lenharo[m]> hi
17:00:41 <tumbleweed> Hi
17:01:05 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> Hi (Japan Team)
17:01:05 <nattie> hola
17:01:20 <DLange> \o/ (German time)
17:01:21 <terceiro> hi
17:01:34 <sahilister> hello
17:01:58 <gwolf> DLange: Is German time 01:50, or is it 10:10?
17:02:08 <gwolf> (your clock's hands are not clearly discernible)
17:02:24 <urbec> my guess is neither
17:02:27 <DLange> gwolf: hahaha
17:03:51 <DLange> 🕡
17:04:05 <pwaring> #topic DC25: Sponsors & Fundraising
17:05:24 <pwaring> do we have anything to update on sponsors?
17:05:32 * h01ger waves from UTC
17:05:38 <sahilister> sponsors reach out in progress, nothing more
17:05:49 <Santiago[m]> Hello, more or less
17:06:04 <bensmrs> appart from the fact that FR companies are stingy, no
17:06:10 <pwaring> #topic DC25: Budget
17:06:35 <gwolf> our main worry point with the schedule as presented last meeting was the cost of food, right?
17:07:05 <bensmrs> We managed to reduce it, but going below now is nearly impossible
17:07:06 <DLange> and accom
17:07:22 <pwaring> there is a bootstrap budget merge request
17:07:23 <pwaring> https://salsa.debian.org/debconf-team/public/data/dc25/-/merge_requests/2
17:07:29 <bensmrs> no, accomodation is non-negotiable
17:07:39 <bensmrs> so it may be a worry point, but not one we can act on
17:08:17 <DLange> how much is your total expenses now?
17:08:57 <tumbleweed> and how much is the expected cost to debian (loss for the event)?
17:10:39 <billchenchina1> o/
17:10:50 <bensmrs> Given the current sponsors and voucher and bursary estimates, ledger says
17:10:52 <bensmrs> EUR -156,300.77
17:10:54 <bensmrs> USD -35,100.00
17:11:06 <bensmrs> We need to sell more meals, that’s for sure
17:11:13 <bensmrs> And discuss bursaries seriously
17:11:17 <tumbleweed> bensmrs: so, total cost 156k EUR
17:11:21 <gwolf> well, we haven't opened registration yet...
17:11:23 <tumbleweed> and cost to debian 35k USD?
17:11:37 <bensmrs> no
17:11:44 <tumbleweed> or did you just not combine the EUR and USD expenses?
17:11:49 <tumbleweed> -X EUR
17:11:59 <bensmrs> well I c/c what ledger gives me
17:12:01 <gwolf> so we can only estimate. But I guess if we are open by telling attendees we _need_ support from whoever than can chip in for their food...
17:12:10 <bensmrs> yeah
17:12:15 <bensmrs> and obviously more sponsors
17:12:51 <bensmrs> €122k is clearly not enough
17:13:05 <DLange> we can not do a conference dinner (17.5k), not have daytrips paids etc.
17:13:31 <DLange> we cannot make money out of thin air but we can reduce the expenses to what is necessarey
17:13:32 <gwolf> right, makes absolute sense. Those are "nice to have" things... but not necessary at all
17:13:38 <bensmrs> daytrips are invoiced to people in the current estimate
17:13:54 * tumbleweed git updated, and I see:
17:13:59 <bensmrs> We’re working to reduce conference dinner to ~11k
17:14:00 <tumbleweed> EUR -189,898.84 total cost to Debian
17:14:08 <tumbleweed> EUR 357,775.84 total expenses
17:14:15 <tumbleweed> that still seems way too high
17:14:31 <tumbleweed> Debian can't afford this
17:15:24 <tumbleweed> two Debconfs like this would consume our funds
17:16:40 <Santiago[m]> We are aware of that, and we are reviewing all the expenses
17:17:11 <pwaring> do we cap numbers? the food assumes 370 attendees
17:17:58 <tumbleweed> we can cap the numbers of food that we grant for free to attendees
17:18:03 <DLange> how do I get the ledger to play? ./wrapper -X EUR bal does not work on the budgeting-01 branch...
17:18:11 <gwolf> (and this is bound to be a large DebConf... First in a "main" European country in 10 years... and sorry for sounding unfair towards countries in the periphery!)
17:18:15 <tumbleweed> DLange: -f budget.ledger
17:18:20 <DLange> thanky
17:18:58 <bensmrs> capping free food is really something we need to do
17:19:39 <urbec> (Berlin had bbq, snowcamp continous cheese and wine party, just to suiggest rather weird ideas)
17:19:56 <bensmrs> we’re getting legal authorization to sell beverages, so plenty of money can go in our pockets, we’ll need to estimate this
17:19:57 <gwolf> We are often quite lenient when assigning bursaries for food + accom... maybe we will have to do a much stricter assignment this time.
17:19:57 <DLange> and probably move all to camping over hotel?
17:20:06 <bensmrs> we’re in the process of getting*
17:20:30 <bensmrs> gwolf: yes I feel we need
17:20:51 <tumbleweed> are we expecting to put anyone into hotels?
17:20:53 <gwolf> DLange: AIUI, part of the issue with camping is that it is quite far from the venue.
17:21:02 <bensmrs> tumbleweed: not with our money
17:21:12 <gwolf> (I understood DLange's "hotel" as "dorms"? might be off)
17:21:13 <bensmrs> either mobile homes or student rooms
17:21:19 <tumbleweed> right
17:21:42 <DLange> gwolf: sure, but then its the same for everybody, would save ~30-40k off the budget
17:21:44 <bensmrs> We may be able to cut student rooms from €40/night to €30/night, but that will depend on availability, which will be known waaaay later
17:21:52 <gwolf> DLange: right.
17:22:16 <bensmrs> we wanted to stay conservative on this point, but we can run an estimate for 50/50 of both kinds of rooms
17:22:42 <DLange> I think you need to get more agressive in cost reductions, bensmrs
17:22:47 <bensmrs> also which %age of free meals can we reasonably expect?
17:22:55 <bensmrs> DLange: duh
17:23:01 <DLange> your negotiation position gets worse the closer you get to the conference dates
17:23:04 <bensmrs> but housing is housing…
17:23:12 <DLange> and your are >100k above what is possible
17:23:46 <bensmrs> for accomodation, there is no room for negotiation
17:24:01 <bensmrs> only getting the cheapest rooms we can when they know precisely which rooms are available
17:24:17 <Santiago[m]> DLange: negotiation with whom?
17:24:19 <bensmrs> they gave us an amount of rooms, but they don’t know yet which rooms will be free then
17:24:52 <gwolf> free rooms \o/
17:24:52 <DLange> Santiago[m]: accommodation and catering at this time
17:24:57 <tumbleweed> bensmrs: from a budget point of view the wiggle room we have is how many want to be available on bursary
17:25:01 <tumbleweed> and how many we change for, at what price
17:25:02 <bensmrs> I can cut 6k on accomodation if we’re able to do 50:50 on cheap/less-cheap rooms
17:25:17 <bensmrs> tumbleweed: yes
17:25:19 <bensmrs> exactly
17:25:25 <DLange> tumbleweed: and how much we support travel
17:25:33 <bensmrs> we can overcharge a little for food and accomodation
17:25:35 <tumbleweed> right
17:25:46 <bensmrs> and trust me, I’m spending several hours a day contacting local companies
17:26:06 <bensmrs> but no money given the current political/economical situation in Franci
17:26:08 <bensmrs> France*
17:26:25 <DLange> that's why we say the expenses need to go down
17:26:29 <Santiago[m]> DLange: we have done our best to negotiate food. It is difficult to make it cheaper
17:26:35 <pwaring> ok, is there anything specific we can say more on budget or should we move on (and revisit next week)
17:26:39 <DLange> does not look more relaxed on the income side outside of France either
17:28:11 <DLange> Santiago[m]: I know. Still we need to do it. We can't Debian go broke over a DC.
17:28:41 <tumbleweed> if debconf has to be entirely self-paid to make it work, so be it
17:28:48 <tumbleweed> but I know we can do better than that
17:28:48 <gwolf> In extreme cases, are we still in time if we decide to cut off a day or three of DebCamp?
17:29:09 <gwolf> (or even DebConf)
17:29:16 <gwolf> Surely, it would _not_ be what we want. But it's an easy way to cut on expenses...
17:29:33 <gwolf> We are used to two weeks, but it's not carved in stone.
17:30:03 <pwaring> let's have a think over the next week and we can revisit it
17:30:12 <pwaring> #topic DC25: Registration
17:30:20 <weepingclown[m]> o/
17:30:23 <tumbleweed> bensmrs, Santiago[m] would it help to have a call to discuss budgeting?
17:30:29 <weepingclown[m]> was waiting for the meeting but then got busy with some stuff
17:31:30 <gwolf> FWIW Santiago[m] requested a couple of days of unforseen leave, as he is attending personal issues
17:31:44 <gwolf> (I know he is connected, but taking long to answer)
17:31:53 <pwaring> registration now says 'not yet open' (as requested as the last meeting)
17:31:58 <weepingclown[m]> what are the remaining major blockers to opening registration?
17:32:10 <weepingclown[m]> we now have zammad running at least
17:32:12 <pwaring> and last time we needed: prices for food & accommodation, schedule of deadlines, testing registration flow
17:32:20 <tumbleweed> weepingclown[m]: pricing is the big one
17:32:27 <bensmrs> tumbleweed: yes it could
17:32:29 <tumbleweed> but we could open bursary applications without it, if we need to for schedule reasons
17:32:39 <tumbleweed> bensmrs: OK, let's try to schedule something after the meeting
17:32:54 <bensmrs> but in the end it will be about increasing how many ppl will need to self-pay
17:33:07 <bensmrs> and guesstimating bar income
17:33:15 <pwaring> can we test registration with fake numbers? just to make sure the process works?
17:33:19 <gwolf> I'm disappearing --- as I said, I have a concurrent meeting. Sorry for the dual-booking!
17:33:24 <bensmrs> and guesstimating new sponsors
17:33:35 <tumbleweed> pwaring: we can test registration on wafertest.debconf.org
17:36:37 <pwaring> ok, is there anything we can say / agree on registration now?
17:36:44 <pwaring> or do we come back once we've got the numbers and dates
17:36:57 <nattie> not much to update
17:37:18 <pwaring> #topic DC25: Website / Logo / Artwork
17:37:38 <pwaring> anything that we need to say on the website, or is it a work in progress?
17:38:20 <weepingclown[m]> it is up and running, so maybe nothing until it is tested?
17:38:25 <weepingclown[m]> not sure
17:38:58 <terceiro> I think the topic can probably be dropped  from future meetings
17:39:14 <pwaring> I think it was dropped but got added back in
17:39:20 <pwaring> I'll remove it again
17:39:21 <weepingclown[m]> :p
17:39:21 <terceiro> huh
17:39:58 <pwaring> anyway it's gone from next week
17:40:16 <pwaring> anything else on DC25? I've taken off food as we've already discussed it under budget
17:42:02 <bensmrs> nah don’t remove it
17:42:04 <pwaring> #topic DC26: Bids
17:42:57 <pwaring> Japan updated their bid today
17:43:04 <nattie> so i'm wondering a little bit about the cost of the potential Conference Dinner for .jp
17:43:08 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> yes
17:43:10 <nattie> oh, i should look at the updated version
17:43:24 <pwaring> https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/26/Bids/Japan#Cost.2FFood_fee
17:44:31 <nattie> that very much creates a two-class system
17:44:45 <nattie> which to me is kind of counter to the spirit of debian
17:45:08 <nattie> the suggestion that dinner is only provided to people with food bursaries
17:45:29 <nattie> (sorry, should have specified that to start with)
17:46:25 <tumbleweed> for overall costs, 150k EUR is at least something reasonable for debconf
17:46:44 <terceiro> yes
17:46:45 <tumbleweed> it only leaves maybe 50k EUR for travel bursaries, but that's something
17:46:49 <nattie> yes
17:46:57 <nattie> the split venue thing also complicates matters
17:47:26 * gwolf is back -- that was a swift meeting :-)
17:47:26 <tumbleweed> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: would you expect that we'd get access to the DebConf venue for setup during DebCamp?
17:47:52 <pwaring> at least it is a split venue for DebCamp/DebConf rather than a split venue for DebConf (i.e. some talks in one venue, some in another)
17:48:56 <terceiro> also, wouldn't the debcamp venue be good enough for debconf as well?
17:49:08 <terceiro> I don't think we need:
17:49:09 <terceiro> large room x 1 (500 persons)
17:49:09 <terceiro> medium room x 2 (320 persons + 220 persons)
17:49:15 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> tumbleweed: Maybe we can prepare a small room. The large room will probably be prepared on the morning of the first day of DebConf.
17:49:28 <nattie> terceiro: perhaps it isn't available that week?
17:49:49 <gwolf> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: what is the main driver for having DebCamp and DebConf in different venues?
17:50:01 <tumbleweed> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: I don't think the video team would accept setup on the morning of the first day
17:51:37 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> gwolf: This is to provide a capacity of 500 people. But do we really need that many?
17:52:00 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> tumbleweed: oh...
17:52:37 <gwolf> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: I think we are aiming a bit too high if we are targetting 500. IIRC we have only reached 500 in DC15, in Germany. We were 470 if memory serves me right in Edinburgh, 2007, and it was a sea of people...
17:53:03 <gwolf> Would a single venue be possible if we aim at a number more in line to what we had in India or Korea?
17:53:12 <tumbleweed> yeah, I would expect more like the numbers we got in South Korea
17:53:28 <gwolf> (FWIW we are _not_ targetting 500 attendees with the Argentinian bid -- I am aiming at a roof of 300)
17:53:56 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> 300 peoples
17:54:02 <gwolf> yes
17:54:30 <gwolf> (of course, I want it to be in Argentina 😉 but it can lead to unfairness if we are preparing for two such different conferences!)
17:54:43 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> When I inquired in advance about the availability of the venue, I found out that it had not been open for two consecutive weeks.
17:54:52 <gwolf> (of course, I'd love to have DebConf in Japan in 2027 😉
17:55:02 <gwolf> oh, OK, that's a tougher blocker...
17:55:14 <tumbleweed> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: do you think if we booked another year in advance, we could get 2 weeks?
17:55:21 <nattie> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: connecting with what Gunnar says, how willing would Team Japan be to bid for DC27?
17:56:49 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> tumbleweed: The venue can only be booked a year in advance, and they won't take reservations now.
17:57:16 <nattie> how is it not available then, if they're not taking reservations?
17:57:36 <gwolf> But you could comment them that, even if not _formally_ you are _willing_ to reserve for 2027 for two weeks?
17:57:52 <gwolf> I mean, we would not have a firm committment, but have a "statement of intention" or something like that.
17:57:56 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> nattie: If it is not approved at DebConf26, we are considering proposing it again at DebConf27 based on the opinions expressed today.
17:58:09 <gwolf> (of course, today we don't have a real reservation, neither in Japan nor in Argentina)
17:58:19 * nattie would very much welcome at Japanese bid for DC27!
17:58:46 <nattie> (Hokkaido sounds super interesting)
17:58:54 <gwolf> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: Again, we have an _understanding_ with the Santa Fe province / university to have rooms availability for the conference, and the numbers I gave for accomodation are based on a Web search...
18:01:27 <tumbleweed> I understand customs are different in different places, but typically we are able to start a conversation about availability based on our goals
18:01:42 <tumbleweed> and slowly over time we get more formal, signing a contract, paying deposits, etc.
18:02:01 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> I think we need to explain to the city hall whether the venue can be booked for two consecutive weeks.
18:02:16 <tumbleweed> at the very early stages, before things are open for booking, one can usually still get an idea for what is and isn't possible
18:02:56 <pwaring> ok, shall we leave it with Team Japan to check the 2 week thing and perhaps revisit next week?
18:03:04 <pwaring> (conscious that we're heading over an hour now)
18:03:47 <gwolf> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: TBH, you started this cycle just wanting to have DebConf in Japan, without having a city chosen even. I am sure we can prepare something much more solid if we start from this much better position!
18:04:24 <tumbleweed> yeah1
18:04:31 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> OK !
18:05:00 <pwaring> #topic Meeting schedule
18:05:17 <pwaring> as we're weekly atm, next meetings will be 4th March, 11th March, 17:00 UTC as usual
18:05:23 <nattie> i guess we're still weekly for the moment
18:05:34 <pwaring> and we're not at clock changes yet
18:05:42 <pwaring> #topic AOB
18:05:47 <pwaring> anything else before we finish?
18:06:28 <billchenchina1> Have we started processing visa?
18:06:41 <nattie> not yet
18:06:42 <pwaring> there is no visa info yet
18:06:55 <gwolf> billchenchina1: I think visas are depending on registration, at the very least
18:07:12 <nattie> billchenchina1: do you remember the website that bensmrs mentioned where you can put your parameters and see what's needed for visa?
18:08:08 <tzafrir> Should it be on the visas page?
18:08:09 <billchenchina1> , and can we set up a page for what materials do participants need for the visa?
18:08:31 <billchenchina1> https://debconf25.debconf.org/about/visas/ this is still empty yet
18:08:32 <pwaring> I think the visa page is part of the website 'work in progress'
18:08:36 <billchenchina1> yeah
18:08:46 <tumbleweed> do we have volunteers for a visa team yet?
18:08:53 <gwolf> billchenchina1: Most of what is needed for visa processing is almost the same among different countries
18:09:11 <pwaring> I'll add visas to the next agenda
18:09:15 <gwolf> you just have to surrender all of your personal information, as well as most of your dignity, to the authorities 🙁
18:09:36 <bensmrs> The visa wizard is here -> https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/web/france-visas/visa-wizard
18:10:03 <bensmrs> If your ping to France is high, wait a bit after selecting stuff in the drop-downs
18:10:03 <gwolf> bensmrs: ↑ put it on the page ASAP!!!
18:10:25 <pwaring> bear in mind the eVisa stuff comes in soon as well I think
18:10:44 <billchenchina1> nattie: i remembered the website existed, but i forgot the link
18:11:40 <pwaring> ok, I think we can leave it there and revisit visas next time
18:11:54 <pwaring> thanks everyone for coming and see you next week!
18:11:56 <pwaring> #endmeeting