Started logging meeting in #debconf-nyc, times are UTC.<br />
[00:01:02] &lt;MrBeige&gt; hello all!<br />
[00:01:27] &lt;MrBeige&gt; (sorry, had to start on time...)<br />
[00:01:34] * moray waves<br />
[00:01:47] &lt;MrBeige&gt; so, we have the agend at http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf10/Meetings<br />
[00:02:04] &lt;MrBeige&gt; who all is here ?<br />
[00:02:09] * Clint waves.<br />
[00:02:22] * Hydroxide is here<br />
[00:02:31] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: how's it going?<br />
[00:02:38] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: great, i'm here<br />
[00:02:40] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: btw, thanks so much for helping with this<br />
[00:02:43] * schultmc is here<br />
[00:02:46] * coyled waves<br />
[00:02:49] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: it's very valuable<br />
[00:03:01] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: it's really my pleasure<br />
[00:03:15] &lt;MrBeige&gt; anyway, we look forward to this<br />
[00:03:15] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; we appreciate it very much, yes<br />
[00:03:32] &lt;iriefrank&gt; i'm happy to finally give something back to the debian community after getting so much use from it<br />
[00:03:47] &lt;MrBeige&gt; yep, same reason I'm helping, too...<br />
[00:03:55] &lt;MrBeige&gt; anyway, let's not postpone too much...<br />
[00:03:58] &lt;iriefrank&gt; so for today's meeting, i'm probably not giving much specific legal advice or information<br />
[00:04:03] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic visa issues<br />
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[00:04:20] &lt;iriefrank&gt; i see this as a way to make an outline of what you need from me, and for me to give an estimate of when you can expect to see it<br />
[00:04:23] &lt;MrBeige&gt; right, I guess we are looknig for things like "xxx should be fine, yyy might be a problem"<br />
[00:04:28] &lt;MrBeige&gt; ok, cool<br />
[00:04:32] &lt;MrBeige&gt; that'll be great<br />
[00:04:49] &lt;MrBeige&gt; btw, anyone can use the #info command to add info to the meeting minutes<br />
[00:04:58] &lt;moray&gt; iriefrank: I think any questions people ask you in that direction today are mostly to point to future issues, and because even without thinking about it you probably have a better idea than the rest of us :)<br />
[00:05:31] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info today is mainly a way for frank to make an outline of what you need from him, and for him to give an estimate of when you can expect to see it<br />
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[00:05:39] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: would you like to introduce yoruself ?<br />
[00:05:46] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: sure<br />
[00:05:49] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: feel free to use #info to say it<br />
[00:06:22] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: do i write with that tag in the third person?<br />
[00:06:52] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: it's informal, but something that would make sense in the minutes (it does include your name, so i'd do first person)<br />
[00:07:24] &lt;bgupta&gt; here.. sorry was distracted<br />
[00:07:24] &lt;iriefrank&gt; ok<br />
[00:08:31] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; while iriefrank is doing that<br />
[00:08:55] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: and you can split it over tags, doesn't all need to be in tags<br />
[00:09:12] &lt;MrBeige&gt; (the meetings are pretty informal)<br />
[00:09:31] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info frank bynum is an attorney licensed in new jersey. will be admitted in new york sometime soon.  graduated from univ of southern california law school in may 08.  right now working in city government in new york and practicing law in free time on low/pro-bono basis<br />
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[00:09:46] &lt;iriefrank&gt; so that's me<br />
[00:09:57] &lt;MrBeige&gt; excellent<br />
[00:10:00] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; I'll just summarize the underlying point of what we'd like from him. basically, many people have concerns, some of them quite justified, about the difficulty and hassle and obstacles and unpleasantness in obtaining (legal) entry to the US to attend a conference, and also have various privacy concerns with regard to the US government<br />
[00:10:03] &lt;MrBeige&gt; nice to have you on board...<br />
[00:10:28] &lt;iriefrank&gt; so to that end, Hydroxide...<br />
[00:10:30] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: for the "visa issues" section, is there some order you think it would make sense to go in ??<br />
[00:10:30] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; clearly we can't change the law in this process, but accurate advice and both general and specific assistance will help smooth the process over and make as many people able to come as possible<br />
[00:11:00] &lt;Clint&gt; iriefrank: is immigration law your specialty?<br />
[00:11:02] * Hydroxide yields<br />
[00:11:11] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info frank will produce two separate sets of documents. first, one of more legal memos with citations and analysis of the immigration issues<br />
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[00:11:48] &lt;iriefrank&gt; Clint: i don't have a specialty.  most young lawyers don't.  i have connections to the immigration law community and a solid base of knowledge in the practice.<br />
[00:11:57] * Clint nods.<br />
[00:11:58] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic How soon do we need an exact date and address?<br />
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[00:12:35] &lt;MrBeige&gt; the situation with columbia (where we hope to host it) is that they can't commit to a date we can use their housing until October this year.  The conf will be next summer, probabyl june<br />
[00:12:39] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info frank will look into the longest lead times for non-visa-waiver countries and how flexible dates can or cannot be<br />
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[00:12:59] &lt;iriefrank&gt; and i'll include that in a memo with cites<br />
[00:13:02] &lt;MrBeige&gt; and we know some of the countries (I think venezuela, mainly) needs one year<br />
[00:13:07] &lt;MrBeige&gt; Hydroxide: do you know where you saw this ?<br />
[00:13:08] * marga here.<br />
[00:13:22] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: that's about right for venezuela, afaik<br />
[00:13:27] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; MrBeige: the state department has a web page where they list visa processing times per country<br />
[00:13:41] &lt;bgupta&gt; Hydroxide: One thing that might be useful is a list of gotchas. This might include a list of countries that will have particularly difficult times with getting visas. Certain flags that might make things difficult, and any other things we as the organizing team should be aware of.<br />
[00:14:08] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: see ^^<br />
[00:14:15] &lt;Clint&gt; which legal entity will be sending invitation letters?<br />
[00:14:22] &lt;coyled&gt; and if the u.s. has specific passport requirements these days (biometric info or whatever)<br />
[00:14:23] &lt;iriefrank&gt; bgupta: i'll try to include this, but it can't be exhaustive.  i'll try to use some common sense and come up with the most likely to appear<br />
[00:14:25] * schultmc assumes SPI<br />
[00:14:38] &lt;iriefrank&gt; there are lots of biometric gotchas<br />
[00:14:52] &lt;iriefrank&gt; that's importatn to even visa waiver residents<br />
[00:15:01] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info gotcha - biometrics<br />
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[00:15:13] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; Clint, iriefrank: SPI will be the legal entity hosting the conference. Columbia will be the venue. Both are 501(c)(3) entities - SPI will of course be much easier to get to write a letter given that two of its officers are in this chatroom right now :)<br />
[00:15:24] * Clint nods.<br />
[00:15:43] &lt;MrBeige&gt; is one year about the longest wait time we'll have ?<br />
[00:15:50] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: i believe so<br />
[00:15:54] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info the situation with columbia (where we hope to host it) is that they can't commit to a date we can use  their housing until October this year.  The conf will be next summer, probabyl june<br />
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[00:16:03] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info so how will this affect applications ?<br />
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[00:16:12] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: for your reference in the minutes --^<br />
[00:16:20] &lt;MrBeige&gt; ok, let's go on...<br />
[00:16:28] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic are there preferable ports of entry<br />
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[00:16:29] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: with regard to all the nitty-gritty details with things like biometrics for visa waiver countries, we're perfectly OK with you referencing government website that you think give a clear explanation, or alternatively refer to them and supplement with your own info<br />
[00:16:40] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: (applies to any area you give us advice on of course)<br />
[00:16:57] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic this is mainly saying, should people have less of a problem entering in NYC since it's so multicultural?<br />
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[00:17:00] &lt;MrBeige&gt; whoops<br />
[00:17:05] &lt;iriefrank&gt; Hydroxide: thanks, i'll do that where there are impartial, easy-to-understand directione elsewhere, govt websites or otherwise.<br />
[00:17:07] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic are there preferable ports of entry<br />
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[00:17:14] * Hydroxide nods at iriefrank <br />
[00:17:19] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info this is mainly saying, should people have less of a problem entering in NYC since it's so multicultural?<br />
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[00:17:58] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info all airports are run substantially in the same way<br />
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[00:18:00] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info also, I guess part of it is also, what issues might come up while at the visa/customs check, AFTER someone already has a visa approved<br />
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[00:18:18] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #info the relevance of this to legal advice is that a more friendly port will be less likely to turn people away based on the personal reactions of the border official, or provide a hostile border experience to the attendee<br />
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[00:18:29] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info one advantage to flying into nyc is that frank can respond in the unlikely event of problems. but we can also recruit volunteer lawyers elsewhere to be on call if necessary.<br />
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[00:18:34] &lt;MrBeige&gt; like, the customs officer thinks you are planning on staying<br />
[00:18:44] * Hydroxide nods at MrBeige <br />
[00:18:55] &lt;MrBeige&gt; (or so i've heard)<br />
[00:19:12] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: it's true that flying into ewr or jfk is better than driving in through matamoros<br />
[00:19:29] &lt;MrBeige&gt; ok<br />
[00:19:31] &lt;MrBeige&gt; let's move on...<br />
[00:19:39] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic What qualities make people more or less likely to be granted a visa?<br />
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[00:19:52] &lt;MrBeige&gt; any comments here ?<br />
[00:19:59] &lt;iriefrank&gt; yes<br />
[00:20:11] &lt;MrBeige&gt; marga: --^<br />
[00:20:23] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info financial ties to home country (proprty ownership); family in home country; job in home country<br />
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[00:21:01] &lt;MrBeige&gt; does having these things make it very likely to be granted a visa, or just more likely ?<br />
[00:21:33] &lt;MrBeige&gt; or "i'll look into that", of course... :)<br />
[00:21:55] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info hard to say, it's a balancing test. but from a stable country and with a combo of those things, i'd say more likely than not<br />
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[00:22:04] &lt;marga&gt; MrBeige: finishing backlog, one min.<br />
[00:22:09] &lt;iriefrank&gt; maybe even very likely, loath as lawyers are to say that<br />
[00:22:21] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: I think especially relevant to lots of latin americans is, how hard is it to get a visa if you're a young latin american who doesn't own property and has globally marketable IT skills?<br />
[00:22:34] &lt;bgupta&gt; iriefrank: I'm guessing many will be students... is the fact they are enrolled in a school in their home country a "financial tie"?<br />
[00:22:36] &lt;iriefrank&gt; do we have an idea of the breakdown of attendees by region/bloc? roughly even?<br />
[00:22:38] &lt;moray&gt; or, how much can DebConf help with that<br />
[00:22:45] &lt;moray&gt; by letters / by telling them what to do<br />
[00:22:49] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; (but also sincerely has no intention of overstaying the visa -- we're not going to assist people we think are using us for immigration purposes)<br />
[00:23:02] &lt;iriefrank&gt; bgupta: yes, it should be.<br />
[00:23:21] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info iriefrank we will get iriefrank the past debconf reports, which list breakdowns by country<br />
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[00:23:22] &lt;marga&gt; As far as I know from our experience here, Argentinians younger than 35 without a property are usually denied the visa regardless of the job issue.  The property is the decision point.<br />
[00:23:26] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: we can get you geographical breakdowns from past years - in fact, much of that info is in final reports<br />
[00:23:37] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; MrBeige: jinx! :P<br />
[00:24:28] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #link http://media.debconf.org/dc7/report/<br />
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[00:24:33] &lt;marga&gt; iriefrank: I don't think being student is considered a tie over here.<br />
[00:24:43] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #link http://media.debconf.org/dc8/report/<br />
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[00:24:43] &lt;iriefrank&gt; marga: i'll look into it<br />
[00:24:49] &lt;MrBeige&gt; ok<br />
[00:25:06] &lt;MrBeige&gt; marga: any other specific things to look into ?<br />
[00:25:11] &lt;iriefrank&gt; like i said at the beginning, a lot of this is speculating and guesswork until i research specific issues<br />
[00:25:14] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #link http://media.debconf.org/dc6/report/<br />
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[00:25:17] &lt;bgupta&gt; iriefrank: In cases where someone might be on the cusp, can any of us here in the US sponsor people individually?<br />
[00:25:23] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: right, we appreciate you not giving advice you're not sure of<br />
[00:25:44] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic Advantages of the Visa Waiver program vs. applying for a visa anyway.<br />
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[00:25:54] &lt;iriefrank&gt; Hydroxide: i don't expect anyone here to act on what i say here, so i'm being a bit freewheeling<br />
[00:25:59] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: right.<br />
[00:26:07] &lt;coyled&gt; #link http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/wait/tempvisitors_wait.php<br />
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[00:26:12] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info so I hear that some people eligible for visa waiver might want to apply for a visa anyway, because it gives more rights...<br />
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[00:26:23] &lt;MrBeige&gt; any comments on this?  (I don't know myself)<br />
[00:26:25] &lt;MrBeige&gt; Hydroxide: --^<br />
[00:26:25] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #info but is also a lot more hassle<br />
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[00:27:18] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: i'll look into it.  i haven't heard of that.<br />
[00:27:41] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: the government web page mentions that certain appeals rights are waived via the VWP<br />
[00:27:49] &lt;MrBeige&gt; ah<br />
[00:27:51] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; but is very vague<br />
[00:28:02] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; we appreciate the actual answer after you've had a chance to look into it :)<br />
[00:28:13] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; MrBeige: moving on?<br />
[00:28:40] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic What kinds of help can we provide? (email contact (signed/encrypted?), earlist/latest contact dates, phone, in person once arrived...)<br />
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[00:29:34] &lt;iriefrank&gt; # frank will post his contact info with public key somewhere convenient (wiki?) for specific issues in advance of conference and a business phone number<br />
[00:29:49] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank had offered email answers on specific, general research, as well as phone contact while at airport, waiting to get through<br />
[00:29:52] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #info this item is about how to get specific assistance to individualsfit<br />
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[00:30:16] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info also hopes to have advisory materials posted in the order theyll be useful, like documents about biometric passports and visa applications very early<br />
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[00:30:27] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info an airport how-to guide last<br />
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[00:30:31] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; oops, sorry for the weird text - somehow I resized my terminal to 1-char width :)<br />
[00:30:32] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: should we say something like, "don't contact before Jan 1st unless it's really needed", so as not to take up too much of your time ?<br />
[00:31:10] &lt;marga&gt; what info is needed about biometric passports?<br />
[00:31:22] &lt;moray&gt; for non-urgent/non-private stuff it would probably be better to go via a list / via a gatekeeper<br />
[00:31:39] &lt;moray&gt; especially to avoid frank getting tied up with people who just want to argue about US policy :)<br />
[00:31:39] &lt;MrBeige&gt; (typical attendences are on the order of 300-400 people, so hopefully it's not too time-consuming)<br />
[00:31:54] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: maybe i'll need a month or so, i'll look into it.  i want to hold off until i get some research done, but i'll be ready soon.<br />
[00:32:05] &lt;iriefrank&gt; hopefully a good faq will hold off some of those people<br />
[00:32:16] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: I'd definitely like to announce at this summer's conference the means and appropriate timing of when and how to contact frank for what purposes. that won't be until late july.<br />
[00:32:16] &lt;moray&gt; yeah<br />
[00:32:23] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; s/frank/you/<br />
[00:32:36] &lt;iriefrank&gt; but theres plenty of time, and people will need it at different times. so i hope itll be manageable<br />
[00:32:38] &lt;bgupta&gt; Hydroxide: Something for the agenda. maybe next time. language issues at the border, and with visa paperwork.<br />
[00:32:43] &lt;MrBeige&gt; people who want to argue about US policy should be ignored once they start taking iriefrank's time<br />
[00:32:59] &lt;MrBeige&gt; yeah<br />
[00:33:08] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: i'm happy to talk about it over a drink once they get past ICE :<br />
[00:33:11] &lt;iriefrank&gt; :)<br />
[00:33:12] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: clearly we don't want to besiege you with random attendee inquiries, but stuff about people's specific circumstances should probably go to you individually (like the current visa@debconf.org alias for dc9)<br />
[00:33:31] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; (except that doesn't go to a lawyer)<br />
[00:33:34] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: would you say a mailing list before it goes to you is good, and you contact off-list for specifics ?<br />
[00:33:58] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: probably not<br />
[00:34:00] &lt;iriefrank&gt; because<br />
[00:34:12] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; attorney-client privilege concerns, I'm guessing...<br />
[00:34:32] &lt;MrBeige&gt; ok, yeah<br />
[00:34:33] &lt;iriefrank&gt; Hydroxide: exactly, it's an advantage that the deveoper and i can take advantage of<br />
[00:34:41] &lt;MrBeige&gt; great<br />
[00:34:57] &lt;MrBeige&gt; so we'll let that be known...<br />
[00:35:01] &lt;moray&gt; right, but I think you can distinguish the cases<br />
[00:35:01] &lt;MrBeige&gt; moving on...<br />
[00:35:09] &lt;iriefrank&gt; i'll just have to create a "before emailing frank" page<br />
[00:35:10] * Hydroxide suggests that when the time comes, visa@debconf.org or a similar dc10-specific alias be set up to go to frank for INDIVIDUAL-SPECIFIC concerns<br />
[00:35:22] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic Specific Countries<br />
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[00:35:23] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; and everything else goes to some team-related list<br />
[00:35:40] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info anyone who has specific countries or groups we should be sure to check into, #info it here...<br />
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[00:35:49] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info venezuela<br />
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[00:35:52] &lt;iriefrank&gt; Hydroxide: it's hard for me to imagine what kind of list you're talking about, but once we get going i'm sure we'll get it going in a way thats efficient and useful to everyone<br />
[00:35:57] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info visa waiver countries<br />
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[00:36:00] &lt;marga&gt; Yeah... The year of anticipation sounds like a problem.<br />
[00:36:13] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: sure<br />
[00:36:20] &lt;marga&gt; #info middle-east ?<br />
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[00:36:25] &lt;moray&gt; we've had Cuban attendees before, I don't know the status for them<br />
[00:36:32] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info cuba<br />
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[00:36:33] &lt;marga&gt; #info Cuba?<br />
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[00:36:36] &lt;marga&gt; heh<br />
[00:36:43] &lt;MrBeige&gt; heh<br />
[00:36:55] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info cuba will be nearly impossible<br />
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[00:36:57] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; moray: well, the lead time for cuban visas according to travel.state.gov appears to be > 800 days - honestly I'm surprised (but pleased) that the US even grants any visas to Cubans<br />
[00:37:07] &lt;schultmc&gt; moray: last I checked, Cuban visas are 800+ days<br />
[00:37:10] &lt;moray&gt; of course for some countries it will also be an issue for them to get permission to go the US, potentially<br />
[00:37:19] &lt;moray&gt; (from their own country)<br />
[00:37:23] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; moray: such as cuba, of course - they do require exit visas there<br />
[00:37:35] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; moray: and lots of cuba->us travelers don't return<br />
[00:37:36] &lt;MrBeige&gt; any more before we move on ?<br />
[00:37:46] &lt;iriefrank&gt; Hydroxide: that's where my help could fall short- exit visas<br />
[00:37:52] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #info general latin-america regional concerns<br />
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[00:37:59] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: there's only so much we can expect you to do<br />
[00:38:01] &lt;moray&gt; people mentioned Iran too, but we have no DDs there *yet* I think<br />
[00:38:23] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info iran (no DDs *yet* we think, though)<br />
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[00:38:29] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #info people who have traveled to countries the US doesn't like (e.g. syria, libya, iran, cuba) but don't live there<br />
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[00:38:45] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: this is basically passport stamps --^<br />
[00:38:59] &lt;marga&gt; moray: I remember we had someone from Israel and someone from a conflicting country in DC5 (I don't remember which was the other country, only that the participants asked to be in different floors)<br />
[00:39:09] &lt;iriefrank&gt; #info those specifics are more subject to the vagaries of enforcement than the absurdity of the law, so i'll look into it via antecdote the best i can<br />
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[00:39:31] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: thanks.<br />
[00:39:52] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic any other visa business ?<br />
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[00:40:01] &lt;MrBeige&gt; anything else people want to bring up befro we move on ?<br />
[00:40:10] &lt;moray&gt; iriefrank: right, but it would be useful for e.g. me to know if I need to get a new passport first / what the official situation is<br />
[00:40:36] &lt;marga&gt; moray: because you have certain visas on it.<br />
[00:40:40] &lt;moray&gt; yeah<br />
[00:40:44] &lt;iriefrank&gt; moray: one of the first documents i hope ot produce for a general audience is about passport pro/cons<br />
[00:40:51] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: (moray has been to many or all of those countries, sometimes multiple times, for very non-terroristic cultural exploration purposes)<br />
[00:41:14] &lt;MrBeige&gt; any other visa questions to throw out there, before we move on ?<br />
[00:41:37] &lt;iriefrank&gt; moray: but it's an interesting issue, thanks for raising it<br />
[00:42:04] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic border searches<br />
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[00:42:15] &lt;iriefrank&gt; ah this is where i can talk with specificity<br />
[00:42:18] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info frank has done extensive research on this (while in law school?)<br />
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[00:42:20] &lt;iriefrank&gt; i know all about this<br />
[00:42:23] &lt;MrBeige&gt; cool<br />
[00:42:25] &lt;marga&gt; great :)<br />
[00:42:26] &lt;iriefrank&gt; yes in law school<br />
[00:42:32] &lt;moray&gt; iriefrank: (I got questioned about a Syrian stamp on a US visit some years ago, though they let me in fine)<br />
[00:42:34] &lt;MrBeige&gt; I'm sure a lot of people are interested <br />
[00:43:08] &lt;iriefrank&gt; the law in this area is just now firming up, and it is: the us can search ANY electronic storage you bring into the country for NO reason at all<br />
[00:43:22] &lt;iriefrank&gt; they can copy it, search it, then track you down and arrest you later, even<br />
[00:43:29] &lt;MrBeige&gt; (now just a few important points, we can have a detailed FAQ later)<br />
[00:43:33] &lt;moray&gt; out of interest, is this different for paper documents?<br />
[00:43:54] &lt;angasule&gt; can they keep any of this equipment for any amount of time?<br />
[00:43:54] &lt;marga&gt; iriefrank: that sounds ugly<br />
[00:43:58] &lt;MrBeige&gt; also, is this any different between US citizens and non-citizens ?<br />
[00:44:00] &lt;iriefrank&gt; moray: no<br />
[00:44:02] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: no<br />
[00:44:25] &lt;marga&gt; iriefrank: so, what's your advice?<br />
[00:44:32] &lt;MrBeige&gt; is there anything positive here ?<br />
[00:44:34] &lt;moray&gt; iriefrank: right, so it's not 'special' treatment of computers, just a lack of special treatment of them compared to paper?<br />
[00:44:37] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; marga, iriefrank: is that any different than most countries, at least legally? (note he didn't say anything about frequency or actual policies)<br />
[00:44:44] &lt;iriefrank&gt; one of the things they're after is pornography. it's a big gotcha.  if a participant looks too young, you could be arrested.<br />
[00:44:57] &lt;iriefrank&gt; Hydroxide: i don't know how other countries compare<br />
[00:45:04] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: fair enough<br />
[00:45:13] &lt;iriefrank&gt; but this applies to laptops, phones, anything<br />
[00:45:55] &lt;MrBeige&gt; anything positive about the policies ?<br />
[00:45:59] &lt;marga&gt; Hydroxide: I have no idea if it ever happens around here. As far as I know, it doesn't.  They can make you pay for customs tax, but not search your data.<br />
[00:46:03] &lt;iriefrank&gt; as far as enforcement goes, again it differs largely and there is a lot of volume<br />
[00:46:17] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: well, any practical or legal advice you can gather to minimize the chances of searches, seizures, arrests, etc related to this, and any positive policy points about what actually happens, would be great<br />
[00:46:19] &lt;MrBeige&gt; how likely is it to be searched ?<br />
[00:46:26] &lt;iriefrank&gt; i suspect that most laptop searches are pretextual, they want something else from you and go after the laptop fishing<br />
[00:46:38] &lt;iriefrank&gt; like having a syrian visa stamp, for instance<br />
[00:46:55] &lt;MrBeige&gt; and if there's not pornography, is it likely they won't find anything of interest ?<br />
[00:47:15] &lt;iriefrank&gt; MrBeige: i've frequently wondered how they feel about music, but from what i've seen they're obsessed with porn<br />
[00:47:27] * Hydroxide grins<br />
[00:47:47] &lt;moray&gt; iriefrank: is the way they actually do this known?  e.g. are they going to be suspicious/annoyed just when it's not a "normal" Windows laptop?<br />
[00:48:09] &lt;MrBeige&gt; ah yes<br />
[00:48:35] &lt;iriefrank&gt; moray: i've read of some kind of device they plug in and "suck the data off" the laptop, though have always thought that it wouldnt work on anything i use.  maybe im wrong.  the technical details of enforcement are kept secret, unfortunately<br />
[00:48:41] &lt;moray&gt; or suspicious when DDs have crazy setups with lots of passwords to tart the thing up, encrypted FS etc.<br />
[00:48:41] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info what about when it's not a "normal" windows laptop ?<br />
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[00:49:02] &lt;moray&gt; (s/tart/start/ :)<br />
[00:49:30] &lt;MrBeige&gt; ok, these are good thinsg to research...<br />
[00:49:34] &lt;moray&gt; iriefrank: right, I can imagine they don't announce it, maybe there are some anecdotes from people searched<br />
[00:49:44] &lt;iriefrank&gt; i'll write a memo recommending everyone being a fresh windows 7 install on their laptop just to be safe ;)<br />
[00:49:50] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; hahahaha<br />
[00:49:52] &lt;iriefrank&gt; moray: i'll try reaching out about that<br />
[00:49:53] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: you can start any FAQs off of our wiki page anytime you'd like, we can move them to be more offical anytime later<br />
[00:50:20] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: anyway, you have the idea of the type of concerns now.<br />
[00:50:32] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic information about fingerprinting/photographing<br />
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[00:50:44] &lt;iriefrank&gt; yes, part of me thinks that i'll get more questions about laptop searches than visa issues. but i'm happy to do that<br />
[00:50:44] &lt;MrBeige&gt; this is one thing which some DDs are very concerned with<br />
[00:51:00] &lt;moray&gt; MrBeige: I think also not much to be done about it though<br />
[00:51:01] &lt;MrBeige&gt; there isn't much we can do about it other than provide true information<br />
[00:51:08] &lt;MrBeige&gt; moray: --^<br />
[00:51:15] &lt;MrBeige&gt; (heh)<br />
[00:51:24] &lt;Slick&gt; Hey guys, just wanted to throw in the bill 3612<br />
[00:51:29] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #info accurate information about this will minimize problems<br />
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[00:51:31] &lt;marga&gt; ??<br />
[00:51:34] &lt;Slick&gt; the "Traveler's bill of rights"<br />
[00:51:42] &lt;moray&gt; I haven't been to the US since the fingerprinting stuff, the airport in Armenia used fingerprinting though (I think only on departure)<br />
[00:51:42] &lt;marga&gt; Slick: what does it say?<br />
[00:51:51] &lt;Slick&gt; basically<br />
[00:52:09] &lt;Slick&gt; the govt needs more than a suspician to hold a laptop for more than 24 hrs<br />
[00:52:34] &lt;MrBeige&gt; that's nice to know<br />
[00:52:40] &lt;Slick&gt; it reigns in the discression of the inspectors<br />
[00:52:41] &lt;MrBeige&gt; we'll see<br />
[00:52:41] &lt;iriefrank&gt; but that's just a bill in committee<br />
[00:52:41] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; Slick: oh, yeah, I know there are some congresspeople trying to put limits on laptop searching. if iriefrank could gather some details to publish about efforts to put sanity into that policy, that'd be good.<br />
[00:52:45] &lt;moray&gt; Slick: though announcing that kind of thing to attendees may just scare them "what, they'll keep my laptop for 24 hours?"<br />
[00:52:52] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; moray: good point too<br />
[00:52:53] &lt;MrBeige&gt; anyway, we should move on<br />
[00:52:56] &lt;Slick&gt; I'm not sure if it will impact our international travelers as much<br />
[00:53:04] &lt;angasule&gt; so laptops can be held for more than 24 hours now?<br />
[00:53:15] * Hydroxide points out that we're on the next topic already<br />
[00:53:19] &lt;Slick&gt; I think for as long as they like<br />
[00:53:21] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; we're not trying to answer all questions now<br />
[00:53:23] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic if a laptop is held, how long does that usually go for?<br />
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[00:53:23] &lt;Slick&gt; but yea<br />
[00:53:25] &lt;Slick&gt; lets move on<br />
[00:53:54] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic DC10 prestation - what to include<br />
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[00:54:13] &lt;moray&gt; presentation, presumably?<br />
[00:54:16] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; yes<br />
[00:54:21] &lt;iriefrank&gt; guys, i'm going to head out now since legal issues seem to be over. thanks and i'll be in touch very soon<br />
[00:54:26] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: one more thing<br />
[00:54:29] &lt;MrBeige&gt; so we'll give a presentation this summer about DC90<br />
[00:54:30] &lt;iriefrank&gt; Hydroxide: sure<br />
[00:54:32] &lt;MrBeige&gt; s/90/10/<br />
[00:54:43] &lt;MrBeige&gt; (late july)<br />
[00:54:51] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #info how should we incorporate the general part of this stuff into the presentation we give to introduce DC10?<br />
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[00:54:55] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: ^^<br />
[00:55:11] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; i.e. we want to address these topics somehow in the presentation within the realm of what's acceptable<br />
[00:55:21] &lt;iriefrank&gt; what kind of presentation is it, who is the audience?<br />
[00:55:22] &lt;MrBeige&gt; you can let us know later how much we should include, without legally overstepping our bonuds<br />
[00:55:22] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; since that's the first time most people will be thinking about the nitty-gritty details<br />
[00:55:33] &lt;MrBeige&gt; iriefrank: mostly the same people who will want to attend DC10<br />
[00:55:43] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: this is a presentation to DC9 attendees and anyone else watching the video stream live or after the fact <br />
[00:55:56] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: giving a general overview (including lots of stuff unrelated to your help) of DC10<br />
[00:56:36] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: we have an hour timeslot for the entire presentation and questions, of which we want to spend just a fraction addressing these issues in a broad sense and then provide email addresses or web pages for people to get more info later<br />
[00:56:37] &lt;iriefrank&gt; at the very least, i'll give an outline of what kind of free legal help will be provided and we should have some links to prelim documents by then.  i can even help prepare that part of the presentation and give it to you<br />
[00:56:45] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: great, thanks.<br />
[00:56:46] &lt;MrBeige&gt; cool<br />
[00:56:50] &lt;MrBeige&gt; that'll be good<br />
[00:57:18] &lt;iriefrank&gt; glad to know that's coming up, i'll keep it in mind<br />
[00:57:21] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic Timeline for date decisions - decide before october, or in october? (Do we want to decide dates before Columbia Housing guarantees us spots?)<br />
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[00:57:24] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: the rest of the meeting isn't related to legal advice - feel free to leave or stay as you want<br />
[00:57:27] &lt;moray&gt; iriefrank: thanks for helping!<br />
[00:57:30] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: thanks much for your help<br />
[00:57:32] &lt;MrBeige&gt; yes, done with legal advice stuff now<br />
[00:57:39] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; iriefrank: we look forward to being in touch going forward!<br />
[00:57:43] &lt;iriefrank&gt; you're all very welcome. i hope to meet you in person soon!<br />
[00:57:45] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info Columbia housing can commit to spots for us in October<br />
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[00:57:53] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info Columbia SEAS can commit (almost) anytime<br />
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[00:58:08] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info HI can commit to us anytime<br />
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[00:58:11] &lt;moray&gt; SEAS would be the talk/hacking venue?<br />
[00:58:11] * Hydroxide grins at iriefrank's quit message<br />
[00:58:17] &lt;MrBeige&gt; moray: yes<br />
[00:58:19] &lt;moray&gt; (don't remember what that stands for)<br />
[00:58:36] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; moray: yes, and maybe the eating venue too.<br />
[00:58:39] &lt;moray&gt; right<br />
[00:58:42] &lt;schultmc&gt; School of Engineering and Applied Sciences iirc<br />
[00:58:58] &lt;moray&gt; obviously it's good to announce early, I don't think October would be a problem though<br />
[00:59:08] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info But columbia housing strongly implied multiple times, that if we do decide before october, it will be all right because we can fit in extra cracks, but may not be there "best" building<br />
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[00:59:13] &lt;moray&gt; is there a risk of losing ideal dates from SEAS though?<br />
[00:59:30] &lt;moray&gt; do know what ideal dates would be?<br />
[00:59:31] &lt;bgupta&gt; Hydroxide: How much longer is meeting?<br />
[00:59:43] &lt;MrBeige&gt; moray: a little bit, I will hopefulyl speak with my contacts soon, and learn when they will be busy<br />
[01:00:00] &lt;MrBeige&gt; but from what I have heard before, they are overall pretty open in the summers<br />
[01:00:13] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; bgupta: see agenda, and feel free to leave at any point. we're mainly just talking about conference dates, then any non-frank-related presentation discussion, then setting a next meeting time<br />
[01:00:24] &lt;MrBeige&gt; SEAS they will definitely be booked the first week or two in june<br />
[01:00:53] &lt;MrBeige&gt; but that's still lots of open tiem<br />
[01:01:07] &lt;moray&gt; we had lots of complaints at having dc7 in June :)<br />
[01:01:10] &lt;marga&gt; I agree that announcing the dates in october is fine.<br />
[01:01:13] &lt;moray&gt; though probably that happens for any dates<br />
[01:01:26] &lt;MrBeige&gt; so do we want to decide in a) june  b) october  c) december   ?<br />
[01:01:30] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; moray: any time between mid-june and mid-august should have availability as far as SEAS<br />
[01:01:33] &lt;moray&gt; lots of people prefer August, lots of others don't like August...<br />
[01:01:46] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; the only advantage of deciding in june is that we can announce it at DC9<br />
[01:01:50] &lt;marga&gt; Although it's bad for .ve people, that should be solved, somehow<br />
[01:01:54] &lt;MrBeige&gt; from the past, is it usually decided closer to a, b, or c ?<br />
[01:01:58] &lt;schultmc&gt; August tends to conflict with US school sessions<br />
[01:02:07] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; marga: aaah, that is important too, depending on the visa flexibility with regard to dates<br />
[01:02:10] &lt;MrBeige&gt; guise<br />
[01:02:12] &lt;marga&gt; MrBeige: b is just fine<br />
[01:02:13] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; marga: that might be reason enough to decide in june<br />
[01:02:22] &lt;MrBeige&gt; we aren't talking about what dates right now, just when we want to decide<br />
[01:02:27] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; MrBeige: right<br />
[01:02:31] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; MrBeige: that's what we're all talking about<br />
[01:02:40] &lt;MrBeige&gt; Hydroxide: schultmc --^<br />
[01:02:42] &lt;MrBeige&gt; but yes<br />
[01:02:42] &lt;moray&gt; if they have to get visas a year before, I don't *imagine* they need to say the exact dates at that point<br />
[01:02:50] &lt;moray&gt; though maybe within a window?<br />
[01:02:57] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info so do we want to decide in a) june  b) october  c) december   ?<br />
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[01:02:59] &lt;marga&gt; Yes.<br />
[01:02:59] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; MrBeige: we may need to know the approximate or exact dates before october - or they may not. let's wait to hear back from frank on that point<br />
[01:03:08] &lt;marga&gt; Something like "Summer 2010" ?<br />
[01:03:22] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; MrBeige: if they don't need to know dates before october for .ve to get a visa, let's decide in october. if he tells us we do, let's decide in june<br />
[01:03:27] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info this highly depends on when the earliest visa peoppple need to know<br />
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[01:03:30] &lt;MrBeige&gt; ok<br />
[01:03:35] &lt;MrBeige&gt; I AOL at Hydroxide<br />
[01:03:37] * Hydroxide suggests an #agreed<br />
[01:03:38] &lt;MrBeige&gt; any objections ?<br />
[01:03:49] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #agreed if they don't need to know dates before october for .ve to get a visa, let's decide in october. if he tells us we do, let's decide in june<br />
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[01:03:58] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic Make a best estimate dates now.<br />
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[01:04:07] &lt;MrBeige&gt; would we rather it be in june, july, or august ?<br />
[01:04:16] &lt;MrBeige&gt; (this will be helpful for me when discussing with Columbia people)<br />
[01:04:24] &lt;MrBeige&gt; I can tell them what we'd like<br />
[01:04:31] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; I think july works nicely ... and the weather will be fine for any of those months<br />
[01:04:31] &lt;MrBeige&gt; as opposed to being all uncertain about things<br />
[01:04:50] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info weather-wise, there is no real preference<br />
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[01:05:05] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #info by "best estimate dates" we really mean "ideal approximate dates"<br />
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[01:05:09] &lt;MrBeige&gt; (but I prefer the earlier since it's more likely to be cool, and I hate heat )<br />
[01:05:14] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; *: any other thoughts?<br />
[01:05:17] &lt;marga&gt; MrBeige: July has been the preferred month for a while, cause most people on the Northern Hemisphere are on holidays then, but since 2004 only DC5 and DC9 were held in July.<br />
[01:05:41] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #info earlier in the summer is cooler, but regardless it'll be cooler than DC9<br />
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[01:05:41] &lt;moray&gt; *students* are on holiday in July here<br />
[01:05:46] &lt;moray&gt; normal adults more in August<br />
[01:06:09] &lt;MrBeige&gt; so historically speaking, any month will be "typical" ?<br />
[01:06:18] * MrBeige needs to leave in 15 minutes<br />
[01:06:25] &lt;marga&gt; MrBeige: from May to August.<br />
[01:06:41] &lt;bgupta&gt; My order of preference is July, then June then Aug.<br />
[01:06:50] &lt;MrBeige&gt; what days work best for people's summer vacations in other parts of the world ?<br />
[01:06:58] * Hydroxide suggests #agreed on July as optimal<br />
[01:07:04] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; (and then move on)<br />
[01:07:06] &lt;MrBeige&gt; (like june vs july vs august)<br />
[01:07:14] &lt;marga&gt; MrBeige: it's all the same to us<br />
[01:07:20] &lt;marga&gt; We have holidays in January, so...<br />
[01:07:35] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; fair point ;)<br />
[01:07:36] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info july is most preferable for now it seems, but not by a huge amount<br />
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[01:07:42] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic DC10 presentation at DC9<br />
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[01:07:57] &lt;MrBeige&gt; we'll do a presntation... but not much to say yet, is there ?<br />
[01:08:07] &lt;MrBeige&gt; shall we #info lots of things we want to include in it ?  or just go on ?<br />
[01:08:17] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; well, should we figure out who will prepare it? (presumably schultmc and I will give it since we're the only localteam attending DC9)<br />
[01:08:52] &lt;MrBeige&gt; Hydroxide: we can all work on preparing it... at least all work on an outline of points, and then merging into a latex file is easy for anyone<br />
[01:08:59] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; sure<br />
[01:09:09] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; #info the whole localteam will work on preparing the presentation<br />
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[01:09:23] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic next meeting<br />
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[01:09:30] &lt;MrBeige&gt; do we even need to schedule a next meeting now ?<br />
[01:09:50] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info NYC locals, remember the debian gathering on May 8th evening, location to be decided<br />
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[01:09:51] &lt;Clint&gt; what would be the trigger for another meeting if not scheduled?<br />
[01:10:00] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; hearing back from frank?<br />
[01:10:03] &lt;MrBeige&gt; good point...<br />
[01:10:15] &lt;MrBeige&gt; Hydroxide: could most of frank's stuff just go straight into FAQ pages ?<br />
[01:10:24] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; MrBeige: hopefully.<br />
[01:10:35] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; MrBeige: though we might need to set dates in june as discussed earlier<br />
[01:10:38] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; Oh<br />
[01:10:44] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; we should make sure to make progress on the presentation<br />
[01:10:51] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info next meeting trigger points - deciding on dates (if we get info on columbia), frank having good information<br />
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[01:10:54] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; that's the main thing we need to do between now and Caceres<br />
[01:10:58] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info or presentation discussion<br />
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[01:11:23] &lt;MrBeige&gt; what other trigger points ?<br />
[01:11:25] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; let's set a next meeting date now, and feel free to change it<br />
[01:11:43] &lt;schultmc&gt; !Monday works for me<br />
[01:11:46] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; i.e. we can cancel if there's nothing to say, but probably we can at least make headway on the presentation<br />
[01:11:51] &lt;MrBeige&gt; Hydroxide: whaht about a range?  between (now+1 month) and (now+1.5months) ?<br />
[01:11:53] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; I suggest late May<br />
[01:12:10] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; (with informal pre-chatter among those interested at the May 8th gathering)<br />
[01:12:28] &lt;bgupta&gt; Hydroxide: for FAQ, we can start a gathering a list of questions, even if we don't have the answers. that way frank can just fill in the answers<br />
[01:12:30] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #agree target time for next meeting is in one month - at lesat, to discuss presentation<br />
[01:12:46] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #topic any other business ?<br />
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[01:13:09] &lt;Hydroxide&gt; bgupta: true. (whoa, that was weird. I initially read 'answers' as 'spammers'.)<br />
[01:13:09] &lt;MrBeige&gt; there are three non-topics on the agenda: housing, prelim budget, and asking if anyone else has great ideas<br />
[01:13:20] &lt;MrBeige&gt; none of those need to be discussed now<br />
[01:13:20] * Hydroxide suggests end of meeting<br />
[01:13:22] &lt;bgupta&gt; MrBeige: Anyone know any press or bloggers I can reach out to?<br />
[01:13:24] &lt;MrBeige&gt; so with that said... bye ?<br />
[01:13:36] &lt;bgupta&gt; I am gathering list for madduck<br />
[01:13:48] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info bgupta is collecting press/blog press contacts, send leads to him<br />
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[01:13:50] &lt;bgupta&gt; for US based press contact database<br />
[01:13:51] &lt;MrBeige&gt; bgupta: done<br />
[01:14:05] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #info for US-based leads, mainly<br />
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[01:14:12] &lt;MrBeige&gt; #endmeeting<br />
<hr>Meeting ended.<br /><hr><p>Information on meetbot is available at <a href='http://meetbot.debian.net'>meetbot.debian.net</a></p>