Started logging meeting in ##distros, times are UTC.<br />
[20:09:02] &lt;james_w&gt;  http://meetbot.debian.net<br />
[20:09:03] &lt;rdieter&gt; f13: we need one of those.<br />
[20:09:11] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Distro soundoff<br />
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[20:09:14] &lt;f13&gt; boo<br />
[20:09:21] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Kickoff Meeting - Distro soundoff (agenda: http://dpaste.com/hold/43157/)<br />
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[20:09:33] &lt;eeanm&gt; docs http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot<br />
[20:09:35] &lt;f13&gt; Ok, after that fun (:<br />
[20:09:55] &lt;f13&gt; This agenda item is to let each distribution spend a couple minutes with the current status, important events, etc...<br />
[20:10:00] &lt;f13&gt; Who would like to start?<br />
[20:10:10] &lt;james_w&gt; which distros do we have?<br />
[20:10:18] * f13 Fedora<br />
[20:10:22] &lt;spot&gt; Fedora is definitely here.<br />
[20:10:24] * kenvandine Foresight<br />
[20:10:28] * kgoetz gNewSense<br />
[20:10:29] * james_w Ubuntu<br />
[20:10:30] * Philantrop Gentoo<br />
[20:10:31] * mukidohime Debian.<br />
[20:10:42] * Nightrose Kubuntu (assuming jonathan is can't make it today)<br />
[20:10:43] &lt;dberkholz&gt; gentoo * 2<br />
[20:10:46] * lmacken SCO<br />
[20:10:50] &lt;walters&gt; haha<br />
[20:10:51] &lt;james_w&gt; :-)<br />
[20:10:52] &lt;kgoetz&gt; :o<br />
[20:10:57] &lt;lmacken&gt; oops<br />
[20:10:59] * lmacken Fedora<br />
[20:11:03] * fabo Debian<br />
[20:11:05] &lt;kgoetz&gt; ;)<br />
[20:11:09] * mgunes Ubuntu<br />
[20:11:11] * ivazquez Fedora<br />
[20:11:11] * abadger1999 Fedora<br />
[20:11:26] &lt;james_w&gt; so, Fedora wins, want to start?<br />
[20:11:28] &lt;kenvandine&gt; so i guess that is our order<br />
[20:11:39] &lt;f13&gt; or we could go alphabetical (:<br />
[20:11:39] * mrdocs opensuse not a Novell employee<br />
[20:11:49] &lt;f13&gt; but yeah, I'll take Fedora<br />
[20:11:49] * kgoetz hopes things wont be settled by vote, or we'll all be using rpm RSN<br />
[20:11:53] &lt;kgoetz&gt; ;)<br />
[20:12:02] &lt;f13&gt; Fedora is nearing the release of Fedora 9<br />
[20:12:03] &lt;spot&gt; rpm it is. next topic? ;)<br />
[20:12:12] &lt;f13&gt; we're rpm based, for those of you living in a shed<br />
[20:12:20] &lt;kgoetz&gt; oi. i live in a shed :|<br />
[20:12:29] &lt;f13&gt; Fedora 9 has lots of new fun stuff you'll see in the next Ubuntu release<br />
[20:12:38] &lt;eeanm&gt; buuurn<br />
[20:12:41] &lt;spot&gt; f13: be nice. ;)<br />
[20:12:42] &lt;f13&gt; I keeed<br />
[20:13:04] &lt;f13&gt; seriously though, we've got some good stuff that all will like, new NetworkManager, PackageKit, Upstart (hey we can steal too!)<br />
[20:13:10] &lt;f13&gt; KDE4 is a pretty big one too<br />
[20:13:27] &lt;f13&gt; and we've rebuilt the distro (well the binaries) for GCC 4.3 which caused not a small amount of pain<br />
[20:13:31] &lt;spot&gt; target date for Fedora 9 is April 29th. Lots of fun details here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/<br />
[20:13:45] &lt;f13&gt; Our upstart useage is pretty much on par with what Ubuntu has done<br />
[20:13:51] &lt;james_w&gt; how many source packages? How many people with upload rights?<br />
[20:14:06] &lt;walters&gt; that is a good question - i've been curious about that myself<br />
[20:14:25] &lt;ivazquez&gt; 8k+, I believe.<br />
[20:14:27] &lt;walters&gt; the growth since the extras merge has been extremely fast<br />
[20:14:34] &lt;f13&gt; We huh, hold on I overflowed ls<br />
[20:14:45] * spot gets a bucket<br />
[20:14:52] &lt;f13&gt; 5518 source package<br />
[20:14:55] &lt;f13&gt; packages<br />
[20:15:01] &lt;ivazquez&gt; Okay, a bit off.<br />
[20:15:12] &lt;f13&gt; I don't have an accurate count on people with commit access, abadger1999 can probably pull that out of packagedb<br />
[20:15:30] &lt;james_w&gt; just a rough idea will do for me.<br />
[20:15:33] &lt;eeanm&gt; so k/ubuntu and fedora have the same release schedule pretty much. that's nice.<br />
[20:15:39] &lt;spot&gt; james_w: ~500<br />
[20:15:45] &lt;f13&gt; what ^ said<br />
[20:15:56] &lt;james_w&gt; what percentage are "active"?<br />
[20:15:59] &lt;f13&gt; our structure is such that all contributers get "cvsextras" membership<br />
[20:16:11] &lt;f13&gt; and all packages have the option to allow 'cvsextras' to commit to the package<br />
[20:16:19] &lt;spot&gt; james_w: that i can't pull out of the air...<br />
[20:16:20] &lt;f13&gt; not all go that way, but a good good number do.<br />
[20:16:32] &lt;f13&gt; We have no real lines drawn between RH employees or non RH employees<br />
[20:16:43] &lt;gregoa&gt; does that mean that packages are built out of cvs?<br />
[20:16:43] &lt;mgunes&gt; For how long exactly has Fedora had a (near) fixed release cycle?<br />
[20:16:48] &lt;spot&gt; none of that count are people not attached to packages.<br />
[20:16:51] &lt;f13&gt; james_w: honestly, it feels like a couple hundred active packagers.<br />
[20:16:52] &lt;spot&gt; gregoa: yes.<br />
[20:17:07] &lt;f13&gt; mgunes: we've tried to have a "every 6 month" schedule since the Red Hat Linux days<br />
[20:17:11] &lt;f13&gt; so over 9 releases.<br />
[20:17:21] &lt;f13&gt; However we've only starting getting really really anal about that in the last two releases<br />
[20:17:34] &lt;mgunes&gt; That's what I had thought; thanks<br />
[20:18:05] &lt;f13&gt; gregoa: we use cvs to store our rpm .spec files and patches to upstream source.  It's not the best of systems, but it's rather difficult to change without hurting the world and going out of your mind<br />
[20:18:22] &lt;abadger1999&gt; james_w: 621 people have access.  I'dhave to do some more indepth rsearch to determine active.<br />
[20:18:31] &lt;f13&gt; oh<br />
[20:18:39] &lt;spot&gt; wow. growth!<br />
[20:18:49] &lt;f13&gt; all our packages are built on managed buildservers which create clean mininal chroots for each build<br />
[20:18:50] &lt;gregoa&gt; f13: and the .spec files and patches for all packages are in one repository?<br />
[20:18:56] &lt;spot&gt; gregoa: yes.<br />
[20:19:02] &lt;james_w&gt; abadger1999: thanks, it's not too important. I just wondered if any distribution was going to be really good at keeping people active.<br />
[20:19:08] &lt;dberkholz&gt; i've got some scripts around to make lots of commit charts, if you happen to use cvs<br />
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[20:19:13] &lt;ivazquez&gt; http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/<br />
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[20:19:17] &lt;spot&gt; http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewcvs/rpms/<br />
[20:19:23] &lt;kgoetz&gt; f13: is there documentation on how your chroot builds happen?<br />
[20:20:06] &lt;f13&gt; a build process consists of 'create a minimal chroot with the current package set', 'check out the source from cvs', 'process the build requirements and install them', generate a source rpm, build that source rpm into a binary rpm, throw the results back to the build master to store on the filesystem.<br />
[20:20:20] &lt;lmacken&gt; dberkholz: awesome, could you point me to them ?<br />
[20:20:22] &lt;mukidohime&gt; f13: Manually?<br />
[20:20:27] &lt;f13&gt; kgoetz: probably none that makes sense to people not familiar with rpm<br />
[20:20:38] &lt;f13&gt; mukidohime: no, this is all done automatically by software called 'koji'<br />
[20:20:46] &lt;kgoetz&gt; f13: i see<br />
[20:20:49] &lt;abadger1999&gt; james_w: Our new account system will be able to do a reasonable estimate of activity in a few months (db tables record last login but it's not hooked up to codeyet.)<br />
[20:20:51] &lt;f13&gt; mukidohime: the manual part is telling koji "go build this cvs url for that collection"<br />
[20:20:52] &lt;dberkholz&gt; lmacken: git clone http://dev.gentoo.org/~dberkholz/dev_analysis.git/<br />
[20:20:58] &lt;lmacken&gt; dberkholz: thanks<br />
[20:21:00] &lt;walters&gt; mukidohime: basically the equivalent of "dput" is "make build"<br />
[20:21:03] &lt;kenvandine&gt; does koji have any QA integration?<br />
[20:21:05] &lt;spot&gt; mukidohime: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Koji<br />
[20:21:06] &lt;james_w&gt; abadger1999: that would be really interesting to have.<br />
[20:21:10] &lt;dberkholz&gt; lmacken: documentation is crap, we can talk more about that out of band<br />
[20:21:27] &lt;f13&gt; kenvandine: not built in, but some can be done with rpm build configurations<br />
[20:21:34] &lt;walters&gt; mukidohime: one major difference though between buildd and koji is that koji rebuilds for *all* architectures; it doesn't take binaries compiled on a developer's machine like debian's ftp-master does<br />
[20:21:49] &lt;kenvandine&gt; f13: ok... thx... we are working on automating that now<br />
[20:21:57] &lt;ivazquez&gt; https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Koji http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/<br />
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[20:22:00] &lt;f13&gt; http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/<br />
[20:22:06] &lt;f13&gt; heh, thanks ivazquez<br />
[20:22:08] &lt;kenvandine&gt; koji is like our rmake<br />
[20:22:11] &lt;mukidohime&gt; walters: I thought that was primarily meant to make sure that the uploader knew that the packages actually built. :><br />
[20:22:39] &lt;spot&gt; mukidohime: the fedora infrastructure will let you test builds locally<br />
[20:22:41] &lt;f13&gt; I feel like I've gone way over 2 minutes on Fedora, is there anything really important or can we move on to the next?<br />
[20:22:44] &lt;walters&gt; mukidohime: more that they had tested them<br />
[20:23:10] &lt;kenvandine&gt; we done with fedora/<br />
[20:23:12] &lt;kenvandine&gt; ?<br />
[20:23:19] &lt;spot&gt; kenvandine: go ahead, you're next.<br />
[20:23:20] &lt;mgunes&gt; looks like it, thanks f13<br />
[20:23:21] &lt;f13&gt; kenvandine: I can talk all day long about Fedora, but that wouldn't be fair to the rest.<br />
[20:23:23] &lt;ivazquez&gt; Yeah, any more on Fedora and it'll just sound like we're bragging :P<br />
[20:23:24] &lt;james_w&gt; I'm happy to move on, perhaps build systems could be added to the agenda of the next meeting if people want to discuss it.<br />
[20:23:32] &lt;kenvandine&gt; Foresight Linux<br />
[20:23:33] &lt;f13&gt; james_w: good call!<br />
[20:23:49] &lt;kenvandine&gt; Just released 2.0, which is actually our 6th major release<br />
[20:23:53] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Kickoff Meeting - Distro soundoff (Forsight Linux) (agenda: http://dpaste.com/hold/43157/)<br />
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[20:24:03] &lt;kenvandine&gt; Major Releases with GNOME releases, but all rolling.  A release is just "tip" of the repo<br />
[20:24:18] &lt;kenvandine&gt; a release is "when we create isos and live image" :)<br />
[20:24:28] &lt;kenvandine&gt; we're Conary based... the next generation packaging system (no flames please :)<br />
[20:24:30] &lt;f13&gt; snapshots basically?<br />
[20:24:34] &lt;kenvandine&gt; yup<br />
[20:24:49] &lt;f13&gt; what's the delay between taking the snapshot and having the isos available for download?<br />
[20:24:50] &lt;kenvandine&gt; conary has it's own integrate source control<br />
[20:25:00] &lt;f13&gt; kenvandine: (mercurial?)<br />
[20:25:03] &lt;kenvandine&gt; so sources are stored with the binaries... and binary packages can have branches<br />
[20:25:03] &lt;kenvandine&gt; etc<br />
[20:25:05] &lt;kenvandine&gt; no<br />
[20:25:09] &lt;james_w&gt; I'd like to learn more about Conary at a later date, it seems new and different enough to be worth examining<br />
[20:25:19] &lt;kenvandine&gt; it is :)<br />
[20:25:27] &lt;f13&gt; kenvandine: ah ok, they just use mercurial for other things.<br />
[20:25:31] &lt;kenvandine&gt; All the cools stuff... NM, PackageKit, dbus service activation, PolKit, etc...<br />
[20:25:33] &lt;dberkholz&gt; it may be that we should have a meeting that's nothing but discussing package manager capabilities<br />
[20:25:47] &lt;kenvandine&gt; Currently have a packaging contest running, sponsored by Shuttle (which is now selling PCs with Foresight pre-loaded)<br />
[20:25:55] &lt;jtate&gt; f13: the ISOs are built as "tip" of the release branch, so some window for QA is the delta.<br />
[20:25:57] &lt;kgoetz&gt; dberkholz: or perhaps people could bother to hang out here and discuss on their own time ;)<br />
[20:26:15] &lt;kenvandine&gt; right... we have devel, qa, and release branches<br />
[20:26:32] &lt;kenvandine&gt; and we promote the binaries as big groups between branches<br />
[20:26:39] &lt;f13&gt; kenvandine: ooh, a good conversation would be to compare criterias from all distros on what it takes to get from "devel" to "release"<br />
[20:26:40] &lt;kenvandine&gt; Upcoming Users and Developers conference in Raliegh, NC April 18-20<br />
[20:26:51] &lt;kenvandine&gt; so if anyone is in the NC area and want to come hang out :)<br />
[20:27:04] &lt;spot&gt; kenvandine: The Foresight Users and Developers Conference? in Raleigh?<br />
[20:27:07] &lt;f13&gt; kenvandine: please tell me it's not "Forsight Users and Developers Conference"<br />
[20:27:08] &lt;kenvandine&gt; yes<br />
[20:27:15] &lt;f13&gt; Fedora just had FUDCon in RDU<br />
[20:27:18] &lt;kenvandine&gt; hehe<br />
[20:27:20] * spot mumbles about imitation and flattery<br />
[20:27:25] &lt;mukidohime&gt; kenvandine: How do you separate your changes from upstream, or do you?<br />
[20:27:26] &lt;kenvandine&gt; fcon<br />
[20:27:30] &lt;kenvandine&gt; i think is the going title<br />
[20:27:42] &lt;jtate&gt; kenvandine: have rough estimates on #packages #developers (for parity?)<br />
[20:27:42] &lt;kenvandine&gt; mukidohime: integrated into the repo<br />
[20:27:53] &lt;kenvandine&gt; you branch from upstream (shadow)<br />
[20:28:01] &lt;kenvandine&gt; and you can track upstream easily<br />
[20:28:10] &lt;kenvandine&gt; 2933 packages in foresight 2<br />
[20:28:24] &lt;kenvandine&gt; hopes to push that up with these contests<br />
[20:28:33] &lt;eeanm&gt; what VCS do you use?<br />
[20:28:33] &lt;kenvandine&gt; as long as shuttle is willing to keep giving away prizes :)<br />
[20:28:41] &lt;kenvandine&gt; conary is the VCS<br />
[20:28:49] &lt;eeanm&gt; lol wow<br />
[20:28:55] &lt;kenvandine&gt; integrates source control and package management<br />
[20:28:57] &lt;kenvandine&gt; not just the sources<br />
[20:28:59] &lt;kenvandine&gt; and<br />
[20:29:07] &lt;kenvandine&gt; conary manages the system as a vcs system<br />
[20:29:16] &lt;kenvandine&gt; so it applies changes when it does updates<br />
[20:29:17] &lt;mukidohime&gt; kenvandine: Is foresight the only conary distro?  I haven't heard of others so far.<br />
[20:29:19] &lt;dberkholz&gt; kenvandine: is there a distinction between source and binary packages?<br />
[20:29:20] &lt;jtate&gt; updates/rollbacks<br />
[20:29:23] &lt;kenvandine&gt; not downloading entire archives<br />
[20:29:33] &lt;kenvandine&gt; dberkholz: just components<br />
[20:29:41] &lt;dberkholz&gt; i.e. X number of binaries per source.<br />
[20:29:45] &lt;kenvandine&gt; compiz:source is the source component of the compiz package<br />
[20:29:49] &lt;dberkholz&gt; when you say 2933 that's source, right?<br />
[20:29:54] &lt;kenvandine&gt; compiz:runtime is the stuff in /usr/bin<br />
[20:29:59] &lt;f13&gt; mukidohime: rpath<br />
[20:30:00] &lt;kenvandine&gt; dberkholz: binaries<br />
[20:30:09] &lt;kenvandine&gt; compiz:lib is the libs<br />
[20:30:09] &lt;kenvandine&gt; etc<br />
[20:30:14] &lt;kenvandine&gt; all part of the same packages<br />
[20:30:19] &lt;kenvandine&gt; and compiz:devel and :devellib<br />
[20:30:32] &lt;kenvandine&gt; anyway... we can do a packaging session at another time :)<br />
[20:30:39] * kenvandine could talk conary all day too :)<br />
[20:30:44] &lt;f13&gt; mukidohime: rather, rpath does do some distro work, on top of conary.  rpath is the primary authors of conary<br />
[20:30:55] &lt;kenvandine&gt; yes and yes<br />
[20:30:58] &lt;mukidohime&gt; f13: Right, forgot that one.  rpath is generic whereas foresight is gnome desktop, ja?<br />
[20:30:58] &lt;kenvandine&gt; :)<br />
[20:31:04] &lt;kenvandine&gt; yes<br />
[20:31:11] &lt;kenvandine&gt; foresight is derived from rpath<br />
[20:31:12] &lt;mgunes&gt; the GNOME Developer Kit is a nice intro to Conary, for those who want to have the latest GNOME<br />
[20:31:19] &lt;kenvandine&gt; but rpath provides the bases for appliances<br />
[20:31:21] &lt;mgunes&gt; and get a taste of Conary<br />
[20:31:21] &lt;kenvandine&gt; not a desktop<br />
[20:31:26] &lt;kenvandine&gt; mgunes: right :)<br />
[20:31:38] &lt;f13&gt; kenvandine: is foresight (sorry for mispelling it in the topic) a "community" distro?  Can I as joe street user get commit access ?<br />
[20:31:44] &lt;kenvandine&gt; yes<br />
[20:31:57] &lt;kenvandine&gt; we have a little over 50 people with commit access<br />
[20:32:12] &lt;f13&gt; kenvandine: what's the criteria to get keys to the castle?<br />
[20:32:13] &lt;kenvandine&gt; only a few of use that does most distro work... conary makes it very easy to manage the distro<br />
[20:32:20] &lt;kenvandine&gt; prove your worth<br />
[20:32:21] &lt;jtate&gt; but if you don't have commit access, it's easy enough to create a new repo on rbuilder online and build your own foresight derivative.<br />
[20:32:26] &lt;kenvandine&gt; anyone can create a repo on rbuilder online<br />
[20:32:36] &lt;kenvandine&gt; then you point us at it... we consume it into foresight :)<br />
[20:32:48] &lt;kenvandine&gt; and when you prove you can do the job, we give you commit access<br />
[20:32:58] * vuntz says hi to everybody (sorry to be late)<br />
[20:33:03] &lt;kenvandine&gt; yeah... and deriving a distro is dirt easy<br />
[20:33:05] &lt;kenvandine&gt; hey vuntz<br />
[20:33:06] &lt;james_w&gt; hi vuntz<br />
[20:33:06] &lt;mgunes&gt; hi vuntz<br />
[20:33:12] &lt;mukidohime&gt; kenvandine: How much interest is there in conary/foresight/rpath land in KDE?  Would that be the domain of a new separate "distro" fork?<br />
[20:33:13] &lt;kenvandine&gt; so i think i am done<br />
[20:33:14] &lt;kgoetz&gt; vuntz: tut tut :p<br />
[20:33:20] &lt;kenvandine&gt; we will have a kde edition soon<br />
[20:33:25] &lt;kenvandine&gt; jtate is leading that<br />
[20:33:32] &lt;f13&gt; man, kde never gets the love<br />
[20:33:33] &lt;eeanm&gt; hooray<br />
[20:33:42] &lt;mukidohime&gt; f13: ain't it the truth.<br />
[20:33:46] &lt;kgoetz&gt; f13: its not 1998 anymore<br />
[20:33:54] &lt;f13&gt; kgoetz: Are you ready?<br />
[20:33:54] &lt;jtate&gt; it'll have 4.0 with the kde3libs for kdepim<br />
[20:34:03] &lt;f13&gt; (any last minute questions for kenvandine ?)<br />
[20:34:07] &lt;kenvandine&gt; well foresight grew out of my work on the gnome marketing team<br />
[20:34:18] &lt;kgoetz&gt; f13: to talk?<br />
[20:34:21] &lt;mgunes&gt; none here, thanks ken<br />
[20:34:24] &lt;f13&gt; kgoetz: yeah, you're next on the list.<br />
[20:34:44] &lt;kgoetz&gt; f13: oh. can i go after next?<br />
[20:35:00] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Kickoff Meeting - Distro soundoff (Ubuntu) (agenda: http://dpaste.com/hold/43157/)<br />
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[20:35:03] &lt;f13&gt; sure<br />
[20:35:17] &lt;james_w&gt; ah, it's me<br />
[20:35:21] &lt;mgunes&gt; and me :)<br />
[20:35:41] &lt;spot&gt; tell me about this "ubuntu". i have never heard of it before. ;)<br />
[20:35:44] &lt;james_w&gt; so Ubuntu is a family of distributions based on Debian. Nightrose is here to talk about Kubuntu, so I'll leave that to her.<br />
[20:35:58] &lt;james_w&gt; there's also Xubuntu, edubuntu, and a few more<br />
[20:36:24] &lt;james_w&gt; Ubuntu itself is almost 20000 source packages, but that's really just the power of Debian.<br />
[20:36:41] &lt;mgunes&gt; 16059, to be exact<br />
[20:36:43] * etank forgot about the meeting <br />
[20:36:51] &lt;james_w&gt; that's split in to main/restricted and universe/multiverse<br />
[20:37:02] &lt;james_w&gt; ah, thanks mgunes, I thought it was more.<br />
[20:37:20] &lt;mgunes&gt; james_w, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+allpackages for reference<br />
[20:37:24] &lt;f13&gt; james_w: any idea what the split is like?<br />
[20:37:27] &lt;james_w&gt; the restricted/multiverse are non-free software, so we'll ignore those for now.<br />
[20:37:28] &lt;f13&gt; (iE the count in each)<br />
[20:37:43] &lt;mgunes&gt; f13, the vast majority is Universe<br />
[20:37:49] &lt;james_w&gt; main is the Canonical supported bit, universe is the community supported bit<br />
[20:37:55] &lt;james_w&gt; main is less that 5000<br />
[20:38:12] &lt;james_w&gt; there's two developer groups ubuntu-dev and ubuntu-core-dev<br />
[20:38:34] &lt;james_w&gt; the former manage universe, the latter everything.<br />
[20:38:51] &lt;mgunes&gt; that's becoming three, as of the past weeks discussions, to be pedantic<br />
[20:38:55] &lt;james_w&gt; to join you work in the first for a while, and then you can be promoted if you need to and you show the skills<br />
[20:38:58] &lt;kgoetz&gt; james_w: what abotu motu?<br />
[20:39:04] &lt;james_w&gt; kgoetz: that's ubuntu-dev<br />
[20:39:09] &lt;kgoetz&gt; james_w: i see.<br />
[20:39:16] &lt;james_w&gt; MOTU (Masters of the Universe) is the informal name<br />
[20:39:41] &lt;mgunes&gt; ubuntu-dev actually encompasses both MOTU and the core developers<br />
[20:39:42] &lt;kenvandine&gt; how do you manage tracking and merging upstream stuff?<br />
[20:39:46] &lt;james_w&gt; there's about 110 MOTU's and about 30/40 core-dev I think<br />
[20:40:00] &lt;james_w&gt; but only about half the MOTU's are active.<br />
[20:40:13] &lt;james_w&gt; We get most packages from Debian<br />
[20:40:30] &lt;james_w&gt; about 90% are just rebuilt in Ubuntu<br />
[20:40:30] &lt;mukidohime&gt; kenvandine: Since that's common to Debian and Ubuntu, we can bring that up later with both distros.<br />
[20:40:43] &lt;kenvandine&gt; mukidohime: makes sense<br />
[20:40:47] &lt;spot&gt; kenvandine: merging? what is this word? ;)<br />
[20:40:48] &lt;mgunes&gt; Debian is upstream to most of our packages, and our changes to Debian are available at patches.ubuntu.com<br />
[20:40:52] &lt;james_w&gt; of the 10% about half the diff is Ubuntu specific.<br />
[20:40:58] &lt;f13&gt; james_w: can non-canonical employees get to ubuntu-core-dev (IE main packages) ?<br />
[20:41:07] &lt;mgunes&gt; f13, yes<br />
[20:41:15] &lt;james_w&gt; f13: yes. However, as you would expect it is Canonical dominated.<br />
[20:41:27] &lt;kenvandine&gt; spot: hehe... /me merges all the time<br />
[20:41:39] &lt;f13&gt; ah!  Has that changed recently?  In the past I was informed that only Canonical employees had commit access to the Main stuff.<br />
[20:41:52] &lt;mgunes&gt; actually, in Ubuntu, lowering the barriers for contribution is a forefront goal. just about (if not all) development tasks can be handled by non-developers through the sponsorship process<br />
[20:41:57] &lt;mgunes&gt; f13, that's never been the case<br />
[20:41:58] &lt;james_w&gt; ah yes, release, we are 6 months, and are releasing at the same time as Fedora<br />
[20:41:58] &lt;kgoetz&gt; f13: not too recently<br />
[20:42:10] &lt;kgoetz&gt; s/$/if its changed<br />
[20:42:10] * mukidohime wonders why there's so much talk about "dominating" "masters". :><br />
[20:42:27] * f13 will have to amend some talking points then<br />
[20:42:32] &lt;dberkholz&gt; does ubuntu use a single version control for packages?<br />
[20:42:53] &lt;mgunes&gt; no, source packages have VCS metadata<br />
[20:43:16] &lt;james_w&gt; the new release is what's called an LTS, which means it gets longer support from Canonical. The last was 2 years ago, and support is 3 years on the desktop, so there's a good overlap for people who want stability<br />
[20:43:33] &lt;james_w&gt; that means that development for this release has been more conservative.<br />
[20:43:42] &lt;mgunes&gt; and developers keep their own (d)VCS mostly, but it's all integrated into the process via Launchpad, which works with Bazaar, the dVCS used primarily in Ubuntu<br />
[20:43:53] &lt;james_w&gt; one of the big things is the amount of work that has gone in to the server addition.<br />
[20:44:23] &lt;james_w&gt; anyone got any questions? I think I've taken enough time up already.<br />
[20:45:33] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Kickoff Meeting - Distro soundoff (gNewSense) (agenda: http://dpaste.com/hold/43157/)<br />
<a name='7'></a>
[20:45:45] &lt;kgoetz&gt; paste coming:<br />
[20:45:54] &lt;kgoetz&gt; gNewSense is an Ubuntu derivative. it exists to act as a free (as in freedom) edition, that meets the FSFs guidelines for a GNU/Linux distribution.<br />
[20:45:58] &lt;kgoetz&gt; Current release is 1.1. we derive off Ubuntu LTS (Long term support) releases, because withour limited developer power anything else is to much work.<br />
[20:46:01] &lt;kgoetz&gt; Number of source packages is the contents of Ubuntus main+universe repository, less a couple of dozen that are removed due to freedom problems.<br />
[20:46:04] &lt;kgoetz&gt; Number of developers varies, depending on how you define 'developer', but its between 1 and a dozen.<br />
[20:46:07] &lt;kgoetz&gt; I'm quite keen to try and do as much work as possible with our upstreams (and other distros), which (perhaps indirectly) has resulted in a bit of heat on our list recently.<br />
[20:46:10] &lt;kgoetz&gt; We rebuild our packages using a tool called Builder. it takes a source package, mangles it and spits out a binary. (unfortunately not a nice patched binary like you would get from Debian or Ubuntu though).<br />
[20:46:14] &lt;kgoetz&gt; anything you'd like to know that i've forgotten?<br />
[20:46:22] &lt;dberkholz&gt; need a minute to process..<br />
[20:47:03] &lt;kgoetz&gt; at your leisure<br />
[20:47:10] &lt;dberkholz&gt; do you actually change things from ubuntu much, or just remove nonfree packages?<br />
[20:47:11] &lt;f13&gt; kgoetz: do you keep your changes or patches in a VCS anywhere?<br />
[20:47:34] &lt;dberkholz&gt; if you do change things, are they patches to patches to patches?<br />
[20:47:43] &lt;kgoetz&gt; dberkholz: we modify about a dozen source packages, and do a bunch of removals<br />
[20:48:11] &lt;kgoetz&gt; f13: thats the problem with builder - we dont create a patch per se. to see what we change you have to open up a gen-* script and see what it does<br />
[20:48:21] &lt;kgoetz&gt; Builder itself is kept in svn<br />
[20:49:29] &lt;f13&gt; any other questions for kgoetz ?<br />
[20:49:33] &lt;gregoa&gt; kgoetz: why do you derive off ubuntu and not debian?<br />
[20:50:47] &lt;kgoetz&gt; gregoa: theres a few reasons, but the main ones (aiui) were that ubuntu was a desktop focused distro, and ompaul was an ubuntu member. so when he sat down with bbrazil to start a new distro thats what they chose<br />
[20:51:06] &lt;mukidohime&gt; kgoetz: What makes a package FSF-approved, and how does that compare to the DFSG?<br />
[20:51:16] &lt;gregoa&gt; kgoetz: ah, ok. so gNewSense is mainly focused on desktop use too?<br />
[20:51:36] &lt;kgoetz&gt; gregoa: correct. we currently only have a desktop install cd<br />
[20:51:47] &lt;spot&gt; kgoetz: random question, do you guys have Mesa?<br />
[20:52:04] * dberkholz senses sgi free b license coming...<br />
[20:52:11] &lt;kgoetz&gt; mukidohime: a binary/software package has to meet the 4 freedoms of the fsf<br />
[20:52:13] * spot shrugs innocently<br />
[20:52:24] &lt;mukidohime&gt; kgoetz: Ok, so it's a little looser then.<br />
<a name='8'></a>
[20:52:44] &lt;kgoetz&gt; http://svn.gnewsense.svnhopper.net/gnewsense/builder/trunk/gen-xorg-server we can has no dris :(<br />
[20:52:55] &lt;kgoetz&gt; dberkholz: yes :|<br />
[20:53:16] &lt;f13&gt; anything else?  We're running short on time.<br />
[20:53:29] * kgoetz leaves dfsg stuff for later<br />
[20:53:43] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Kickoff Meeting - Distro soundoff (Gentoo) (agenda: http://dpaste.com/hold/43157/)<br />
<a name='9'></a>
[20:53:51] &lt;f13&gt; Gentoo, start compiling!<br />
[20:53:59] &lt;dberkholz&gt; hi there, i'm donnie from gentoo<br />
[20:54:08] &lt;Philantrop&gt; f13: How many hours do we have? ;-)<br />
[20:54:14] &lt;f13&gt; man that sounds like an AA startup<br />
[20:54:20] &lt;f13&gt; "Hi donnie!"<br />
[20:54:23] &lt;dberkholz&gt; basic stats -- we've got 12425 source packages, 254 active committers<br />
[20:54:42] &lt;dberkholz&gt; you can get a feel for how "active" they really are from this histogram: http://lwn.net/images/gentoo_stats/dev_commit_counts.png<br />
[20:55:15] &lt;james_w&gt; who's that up at 12000?<br />
[20:55:19] &lt;dberkholz&gt; we have no separation of free or even open-source packages from proprietary on the repository level, although the metadata exists so you can pick and choose<br />
[20:55:22] &lt;james_w&gt; 1200 sorry<br />
[20:55:23] &lt;dberkholz&gt; that's 120,000 btw<br />
[20:55:28] &lt;james_w&gt; oh, wow<br />
[20:55:35] &lt;f13&gt; nice<br />
[20:55:37] &lt;eeanm&gt; (licensing issues are a lot easier with source distros)<br />
[20:55:59] &lt;dberkholz&gt; our packages are just build recipes, so we can even package things that can't be redistributed or can't be patched, like qmail has been<br />
[20:56:24] &lt;f13&gt; for the lolz: http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildsbyuser  (koji has been in use since about Fedora 7 timeframe)<br />
[20:56:40] &lt;dberkholz&gt; releases are a snapshot of the current tree with fixes brought over<br />
[20:56:50] &lt;f13&gt; dberkholz: you don't keep source tarballs anywhere, the user has to download them from upstream?<br />
[20:56:52] &lt;dberkholz&gt; it takes a couple of months to get from snapshot to final release<br />
[20:57:03] &lt;dberkholz&gt; f13: we've got a mirror network that mirrors all redistributable tarballs<br />
[20:57:04] &lt;dang&gt; f13: We have a mirror system.<br />
[20:57:08] &lt;lmacken&gt; f13: that'll make koji's db real happy :)<br />
[20:57:13] &lt;f13&gt; lmacken: shush.<br />
[20:57:18] &lt;f13&gt; lmacken: it's cached info now!<br />
[20:57:29] &lt;james_w&gt; f13: show off<br />
[20:57:32] &lt;f13&gt; dberkholz: makes sense.<br />
[20:57:33] &lt;eeanm&gt; so gentoo pretty much mirrors the open source world ;)<br />
[20:57:38] &lt;Cardoe&gt; f13: http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/mirrors2.xml we have a few mirrors..<br />
[20:57:43] &lt;dberkholz&gt; our big philosophy is trying to stay close to upstream, so we make a lot of effort to send fixes back and stay pretty vanilla<br />
[20:57:47] &lt;f13&gt; james_w: mine's inflated, as I imported all of Fedora 6 and Fedora Extras 6.  spot is the real hero.<br />
[20:58:08] &lt;Cardoe&gt; quite the opposite of Ubuntu/Fedora..<br />
[20:58:10] &lt;lmacken&gt; f13: quite sad for being cached.. still takes forever to refresh<br />
[20:58:19] &lt;f13&gt; dberkholz: except for the -funroll-loops?<br />
[20:58:27] &lt;f13&gt; Cardoe: pardon?<br />
[20:58:43] &lt;dberkholz&gt; f13: well, for the source code. how users mangle it is another matter =)<br />
[20:59:15] &lt;Cardoe&gt; f13: Gentoo has a very specific set of CFLAGS which are supported. If people run into issues with packages the first step that the user is told to do is to lower their CFLAGS<br />
[20:59:23] &lt;dberkholz&gt; one kind of interesting aspect is that three independent low-level package managers currently work with our packaging format, ebuilds<br />
[20:59:34] &lt;f13&gt; Cardoe: I was more curious what you meant as "quite the opposite"<br />
[21:00:07] &lt;Cardoe&gt; f13: staying close to upstream vs re-inventing in house and tossing it upon the world<br />
[21:00:29] &lt;jcastro&gt; can we move forward with the agenda? This tangent won't really get us anyplace.<br />
[21:00:31] &lt;dberkholz&gt; can we save the distro flame wars for elsewhere?<br />
[21:00:33] &lt;eeanm&gt; f13: the non-vanillaness of fedora and ubuntu I think<br />
[21:00:35] &lt;Cardoe&gt; But I think this is off topic<br />
[21:00:52] &lt;f13&gt; Cardoe: I'd like to talk to you about that after the meeting, as I don't think that's very fair on the Fedora side of things.<br />
[21:01:05] &lt;abadger1999&gt; Cardoe: We try very hard to stay close to upstream...  How to manage flow between distros and between distros and upstream wouldbe a good topicforanother meeting, though.<br />
[21:01:14] &lt;f13&gt; a certain amount of "joshing" is OK and encouraged I think, but lets try to keep the accusations to a minimal (:<br />
[21:01:17] &lt;dberkholz&gt; i don't have much else to add about gentoo. we of course have gnome, kde, or whatever desktop you want, so kde gets a bit of love from us<br />
[21:01:17] * abadger1999 curses his spacebar<br />
[21:01:21] &lt;dberkholz&gt; anyone got questions?<br />
[21:01:30] &lt;vuntz&gt; fwiw, I think most distros are trying to push things upstream since having patches only makes things more difficult in the long term<br />
[21:01:40] &lt;james_w&gt; vuntz: exactly<br />
[21:01:51] &lt;eeanm&gt; vuntz: at least all the distros here. dunno about Xandros and such.<br />
[21:01:59] &lt;james_w&gt; anyone who plans to keep a large diff to upstream is just asking for trouble.<br />
[21:02:03] &lt;dang&gt; Partly, gentoo has it easier because we don't really have release cycles.<br />
[21:02:11] &lt;mrdocs&gt; putting my upstream hat on it *varies* widely IME<br />
[21:02:11] &lt;dang&gt; So we can't clash our release cycle with upstream's<br />
[21:02:36] &lt;lmacken&gt; dberkholz: heh, according to your dev_analysis, I made 60 commits to gentoo in 2007 ;)<br />
[21:03:00] &lt;eeanm&gt; mrdocs: straight-up commercial distros are worse though right? and none of them are really here.<br />
[21:03:13] &lt;dberkholz&gt; lmacken: cool. wonder where that came from<br />
[21:03:17] &lt;f13&gt; eeanm: I could theoretically be from Red Hat (RHEL), but meh.<br />
[21:03:22] &lt;dang&gt; Well, deep freeze distros are worse...  They kinda have to be.<br />
[21:03:23] &lt;mrdocs&gt; eeanm: disagree<br />
[21:03:23] &lt;lmacken&gt; dberkholz: GLSA stuff most likely<br />
[21:03:28] &lt;f13&gt; Are we ready to move on?<br />
[21:03:46] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Kickoff Meeting - Distro soundoff (Debian) (agenda: http://dpaste.com/hold/43157/)<br />
<a name='10'></a>
[21:03:56] &lt;f13&gt; lets get swirly<br />
[21:04:13] &lt;mukidohime&gt; We hope everyone gets swirly sometime.<br />
[21:04:17] &lt;mukidohime&gt; We being:<br />
[21:04:21] &lt;kgoetz&gt; \o/ swirls<br />
[21:04:33] &lt;eeanm&gt; Deb & Ian, the cutest distro name <3<br />
[21:05:06] &lt;mukidohime&gt; (Say your names, people)<br />
[21:05:11] &lt;Nightrose&gt; *lol* eeanm<br />
[21:05:22] &lt;HE&gt; Ah, OK. I'm Marc Brockschmidt. /me waves<br />
[21:05:28] * gregoa waves, too<br />
[21:05:35] &lt;Ganneff&gt; .<br />
[21:06:06] &lt;HE&gt; I do release, QA and new member stuff. Also, I'm trying to become DPL for the coming year, giving me an attractively shaped head and no other privileges.<br />
[21:06:23] &lt;f13&gt; what is "DPL" ?<br />
[21:06:37] &lt;eeanm&gt; their elected leader<br />
[21:06:45] &lt;gregoa&gt; f13: Debian Project Leader<br />
[21:06:46] &lt;HE&gt; Right. DPL is "Debian Project Leader"<br />
[21:07:01] &lt;dberkholz&gt; what can the dpl actually do? you alluded to this already..<br />
[21:07:03] &lt;f13&gt; ah, col.<br />
[21:07:10] &lt;f13&gt; er cool even.<br />
[21:07:44] &lt;HE&gt; dberkholz: Not much, the DPL can put the Debian assets to actual use, but has few other actual powers.<br />
[21:08:33] &lt;mukidohime&gt; Speaking of releases, the release is "when it's done", which is determined by a set of release goals set earlier in the release cycle.<br />
[21:08:47] &lt;gregoa&gt; dberkholz: http://www.debian.org/devel/leader<br />
[21:09:26] &lt;fabo&gt; the next release is scheduled for september 2008<br />
[21:09:29] &lt;f13&gt; mukidohime: when was your last release, and when is the projected next release (rounding to years is acceptable)<br />
[21:09:37] &lt;f13&gt; and there the question gets answered :/<br />
[21:09:59] &lt;gregoa&gt; f13: the last one was in april 2007<br />
[21:10:00] * kgoetz giggles and projects release to a nice round 2010<br />
[21:10:18] &lt;mukidohime&gt; Etch is the current release, out April 07.<br />
[21:10:24] &lt;HE&gt; Well, I might say a few things about the release cycles - Debian has made good experience with content-driven releasing, that is releasing when a given set of goals is actually finished. This is not actually always a good thing though, so we have adopted a mix: We (as in the release team) try to come up with a release schedule that has few clashes with upstream's release schedule, while we also define a set of goals that we want to see satisfied before ...<br />
[21:10:30] &lt;HE&gt; ... releasing.<br />
[21:11:31] &lt;fabo&gt; after a stable release, we do some other stable release updates<br />
[21:11:43] &lt;mukidohime&gt; Debian is the basis of Ubuntu and thus gnewsense as well, as well as many other smaller distros, so the dpkg tools are quite widely used.<br />
[21:12:17] &lt;gregoa&gt; Debian has a little more than 1000 "Debian developers" (with voting and upload rights) of which not all are active. and a few hundred additional contributors who get packages uploaded by DDs<br />
[21:12:49] &lt;gregoa&gt; Debian doesn't have a centralized RCS, it's up to the maintainers to organize their packages<br />
[21:12:53] &lt;HE&gt; Anyway, perhaps a few words about the basics: We use the .deb format (heh) for binary package and dpkg to install these packages. It is comparable to (newer) rpm versions, basically. For higher level tools, we provide apt-get and aptitude (and some graphical frontends to these). apt-get has been widely adopted, both by Debian-based forks and completly different distributions (like the fink system for Mac OS X)<br />
[21:12:53] &lt;fabo&gt; we have now DM also<br />
[21:13:18] &lt;mukidohime&gt; All of the packaging info is kept in a set of files in a debian/ subdir under the source.<br />
[21:13:22] &lt;f13&gt; HE: apt is also available for rpm systems.<br />
[21:13:59] &lt;mukidohime&gt; A source package consists of the original upstream tarball, a gz-compressed diff with the contents of debian/, and a file with metadata.<br />
[21:14:07] &lt;gregoa&gt; fabo: right, thanks for the addition. for others: DM = Debian Maintainers, i.e. people who are allowed to upload a specific set of packages<br />
[21:14:32] &lt;mukidohime&gt; So it's actually 3 files, unlike RPM's source packages.<br />
[21:14:54] &lt;f13&gt; mukidohime: are there any plans to get away from winding up with diffs of diffs?<br />
[21:14:56] &lt;dberkholz&gt; i find it pretty difficult to go patch hunting in debian<br />
[21:14:59] &lt;kgoetz&gt; theres more files inside upstreams tarball ;)<br />
[21:15:00] &lt;mgunes&gt; this is the same in Ubuntu: barring extreme exceptions, we don't modify the original upstream tarball directly<br />
[21:15:35] &lt;mukidohime&gt; Anyone (including ubuntu people) care to talk a bit about the new source format?<br />
[21:15:46] &lt;fabo&gt; dberkholz: all patches are under debian/patches subdir<br />
[21:15:56] &lt;HE&gt; mukidohime: I can do it, I guess<br />
[21:15:57] &lt;Ganneff&gt; fabo: only if people put them there.<br />
[21:15:57] &lt;mukidohime&gt; (as in, someone who knows what they're talking about, unlike me)<br />
[21:15:58] &lt;f13&gt; for those who don't know, Source RPMS consist of the prestine (usually) upstream tarball, a .spec file that is used by rpm t build it, and each individual .patch file we apply for changes.<br />
[21:16:03] &lt;kgoetz&gt; mukidohime: yes<br />
[21:16:11] &lt;kgoetz&gt; (i'd like to hear about it)<br />
[21:16:16] &lt;james_w&gt; fabo: but you have to extract the package to get them, which isn't as easy without dget + dpkg-source<br />
[21:16:29] &lt;HE&gt; What mukidohime described (.dsc for meta data, .orig.tar.gz, .diff.gz) is what is called dpkg-source v1 nowadays<br />
[21:16:33] &lt;dberkholz&gt; fabo: for most distros, i can navigate through some sort of web-accessible thing to browse and download individual patches<br />
[21:16:55] &lt;f13&gt; Actually<br />
[21:16:57] &lt;dberkholz&gt; fabo: for debian/ubuntu, i generally download the diff.gz and use something like mc's patchfs to navigate through it<br />
[21:17:02] &lt;f13&gt; this is yet another good topic for a later meeting<br />
[21:17:11] &lt;f13&gt; "How does one get to the source and source modifications"<br />
[21:17:12] &lt;fabo&gt; dberkholz: if youare lucky, your packages can be found on Alioth<br />
[21:17:13] &lt;leio&gt; I believe one of them deployed a site that has them unpacked<br />
[21:17:14] &lt;Cardoe&gt; dberkholz: Ubuntu & Debian provide this interface...<br />
<a name='11'></a>
[21:17:16] &lt;Cardoe&gt; http://patches.ubuntu.com/h/hal/extracted/<br />
[21:17:16] &lt;gregoa&gt; dberkholz: alioth.debian.org hosts a couple of packages but far from all and in various RCS flavours<br />
[21:17:25] &lt;f13&gt; THere are loets of room for improvements on all distros for this I think, and we coudl spend a few hours talking about it.<br />
[21:17:45] &lt;walters&gt; f13: it's not diffs of diffs conceptually - the dpkg source format is using diff as a container, it's not intended to be read directly, any more than you'd inspect the source RPM cpio by hand<br />
[21:17:49] &lt;f13&gt; but this is quickly going off topic for the meeting.<br />
[21:17:50] &lt;james_w&gt; Cardoe: that's only for packages that Ubuntu modified, let me get you the URL for all packages.<br />
<a name='12'></a>
[21:18:13] &lt;james_w&gt; http://patches.ubuntu.com/by-release/extracted/<br />
[21:18:22] &lt;gregoa&gt; "how to get patches" would be a nice topic indeed<br />
[21:18:23] &lt;vuntz&gt; f13: +1 for adding this to the agenda of a later meeting. That's quite important stuff<br />
[21:18:32] &lt;james_w&gt; you have debian/patches/ extracted for both Debian and Ubuntu under there<br />
[21:18:38] &lt;f13&gt; Are there any more questions for Debian before we move on?<br />
[21:18:41] &lt;HE&gt; There have been quite a few interesting developments in the past few years. dpkg-source v2 ("Wig & Pen"), which will probably not make it, was a complex format allowing for multiple .diff and tarballs. dpkg-source v3 is a more generic format just recently released, more or less providing a $VCS repository as source package (for $VCS only git at this time)<br />
[21:18:55] &lt;mukidohime&gt; Ok, well as far as package count, as was already stated the number of packages is about 20k.<br />
[21:18:56] &lt;Cardoe&gt; james_w: good to know<br />
[21:19:00] &lt;james_w&gt; HE: and bzr I believe<br />
[21:19:14] &lt;fabo&gt; james_w: btw, it must be easy to script it with wget/ar/patch (for replacing dget/dpkg-source)<br />
[21:19:29] &lt;HE&gt; james_w: That's even more experimental than the git one :)<br />
[21:19:30] &lt;gregoa&gt; HE: and quilt (i.e. standard diffs under debian/patches/)<br />
[21:19:39] &lt;james_w&gt; fabo: yeah, but annoying for other distros<br />
[21:19:43] &lt;james_w&gt; HE: true.<br />
[21:19:47] &lt;fabo&gt; right<br />
[21:19:56] &lt;mukidohime&gt; One of the more unusual aspects of Debian development is who gets access.<br />
[21:20:09] &lt;mukidohime&gt; HE: As an NM guy, care to explain that?<br />
[21:20:10] &lt;james_w&gt; perhaps we should write such a script and make it widely available.<br />
[21:21:32] &lt;Ganneff&gt; its *far* too easy to get upload rights in debian.<br />
[21:21:35] &lt;gregoa&gt; (for others: NM = new maintainer process, i.e. how to become a Debian Developer)<br />
[21:21:38] &lt;HE&gt; OK, perhaps a few words about the NM (New Maintainer) process. This leads up to the full Debian Developer status, giving upload permissions for *every* package (in unstable, the development tree). We implement quite hard (and time-consuming) checks before handing this access out, which has been critized quite much in the past. There have been some improvements, though, moving it from merely theoretical questions to a task-driven process<br />
[21:22:28] * f13 makes another mental note, contributor progression is a good topic to go over as well<br />
[21:22:36] &lt;mukidohime&gt; Fortunately many packages have moved from being maintained by individuals to being team-maintained.<br />
[21:22:42] &lt;f13&gt; each of us are trying to handle how to bring more contributors in, but not risk all our packages.<br />
[21:23:29] &lt;mukidohime&gt; I for one got my start by working with the kde team.  I can't upload packages to Debian, but I can commit to the VCS where the packaging info is stored.<br />
[21:23:36] &lt;fabo&gt; Debian/Ubuntu try to promote mentoring<br />
[21:23:40] &lt;f13&gt; Any further Debian questions?<br />
[21:23:49] &lt;leio&gt; How many source packages are in Debian?<br />
[21:24:06] &lt;dberkholz&gt; 16,xxx<br />
[21:24:07] &lt;f13&gt; since that's the third time that's asked, I'll take that as a que for the next distro (:<br />
[21:24:10] &lt;leio&gt; unique libraries or applications basically, not counting the myriad of .deb's you get out of one thing (-dbk, -dev, etc)<br />
[21:24:31] &lt;dberkholz&gt; 20:36 <    mgunes > 16059, to be exact<br />
[21:24:32] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Kickoff Meeting - Distro soundoff (Kubuntu) (agenda: http://dpaste.com/hold/43157/)<br />
<a name='13'></a>
[21:24:42] &lt;leio&gt; aight, thanks :)<br />
[21:24:50] &lt;eeanm&gt; Nightrose: ^^^<br />
[21:24:51] &lt;Nightrose&gt; I'll make it short since james_w already said a lot about ubuntu and this also applies to kubuntu as we share the same infrastructure (repositories and so on) - ok what can I add... - we are taking care of the KDE side of the *buntu family<br />
[21:25:00] &lt;Ganneff&gt; true source packages in debian are 12k (unstable only)<br />
[21:25:06] &lt;Nightrose&gt; right now we are working on hardy our next release<br />
[21:25:09] &lt;f13&gt; Kubuntu is our last represented distro, although I think I spotted an opensuse nick pop in.<br />
[21:25:21] &lt;Nightrose&gt; it will be released with a stable kde 3 edition and a shiny kde 4 respin<br />
[21:25:27] &lt;f13&gt; hpj: are you going to represent OpenSuSE for us?<br />
[21:25:41] &lt;eeanm&gt; Beineri is a Novell/Opensuse guy<br />
[21:25:45] &lt;f13&gt; ah.<br />
[21:25:47] &lt;Nightrose&gt; kubuntu will not be an LTS as ubuntu<br />
[21:25:56] &lt;Nightrose&gt; (for hardy that is)<br />
[21:26:08] &lt;mrdocs&gt; i will do opensuse<br />
[21:26:14] &lt;phed_&gt; I wish packages were 1:1 to project<br />
[21:26:15] &lt;Nightrose&gt; hmmm yea I think that's it for now<br />
[21:26:18] &lt;Nightrose&gt; any questions?<br />
[21:26:18] &lt;walters&gt; Nightrose: how much are you communicating with e.g. the Fedora KDE team on OS integration issues such as NetworkManager, theming, etc.?<br />
[21:26:20] &lt;kgoetz&gt; Nightrose: although its not LTS branded, all the packages will remain in the repository, so you could use it as LTS ?<br />
[21:26:31] &lt;f13&gt; Nightrose: is kubuntu completely a subset of Ubuntu packages, or are there things you have that aren't in Ubuntu?<br />
[21:26:43] &lt;eeanm&gt; f13: they use the same repos<br />
[21:26:45] &lt;james_w&gt; f13: it's all in the same repository<br />
[21:26:49] &lt;Nightrose&gt; walters: we are working together quite well AFAIK<br />
[21:26:51] &lt;f13&gt; ok<br />
[21:27:05] &lt;f13&gt; but are there changes kubuntu does specifically for kubuntu in their packages?<br />
[21:27:07] &lt;james_w&gt; f13: you get kubuntu by installing kubuntu-desktop and ubuntu by installing ubuntu-desktop<br />
[21:27:07] &lt;phed_&gt; In Ubuntu/Debian, does src & binary packages reference the same project? Or multi-packages?<br />
[21:27:08] &lt;walters&gt; Nightrose: ok, seems like you have similar goals, just wanted to double check<br />
[21:27:08] &lt;Nightrose&gt; f13: you can get everything in Ubuntu that you have in kubuntu<br />
[21:27:12] &lt;mgunes&gt; Ubuntu Studio, Xubuntu and Kubuntu share the same package archive.<br />
[21:27:12] &lt;Nightrose&gt; the repository is the sam<br />
[21:27:14] &lt;Nightrose&gt; e<br />
[21:27:24] &lt;f13&gt; gotcha.  So same really as our KDE spins<br />
[21:27:28] &lt;kgoetz&gt; f13: kubuntu is an install cd. thats how it differs from ubuntu proper<br />
[21:27:29] &lt;phed_&gt; In Gobo we have one package / file download<br />
[21:27:41] &lt;dberkholz&gt; is the kubuntu release process identical to the gnome version?<br />
[21:27:43] &lt;james_w&gt; f13: I don't know much about respins, but I think so.<br />
[21:27:53] &lt;jtate&gt; Nightrose: how does that communication happen?  I'd like to join in (as developer of foresight's kde edition)<br />
[21:27:55] &lt;gregoa&gt; phed_: one source package can produce one or more binary packages<br />
[21:27:57] &lt;Ganneff&gt; phed_: one source in debian based distros can create multiple binary packages<br />
[21:28:10] &lt;Nightrose&gt; jtate: #kubuntu-devel mainly<br />
[21:28:16] &lt;Nightrose&gt; and the mailinglist<br />
[21:28:21] &lt;phed_&gt; Ganneff: so, is there a master list of sources?<br />
[21:28:39] &lt;Nightrose&gt; jtate: if you want to join you are more than welcome ;-)<br />
[21:28:45] &lt;jtate&gt; So if I go in asking questions about Why SSL in konq4 sucks so bad? I won't get shut down for not using kubuntu?<br />
[21:28:51] &lt;Ganneff&gt; phed_: Sources.gz on every mirror or what do you mean?<br />
[21:29:10] &lt;Nightrose&gt; jtate: depending on wether it is a kubuntu problem yes or no ;-)<br />
[21:29:11] &lt;phed_&gt; eh, not sure if that's what I mean<br />
[21:29:13] &lt;james_w&gt; jtate: isn't that more of an upstream question?<br />
[21:29:15] &lt;Nightrose&gt; but really we are a nice bunch<br />
[21:29:18] &lt;jtate&gt; james_w: certainly<br />
[21:29:21] &lt;Nightrose&gt; we don't eat kittens<br />
[21:29:23] &lt;Nightrose&gt; :P<br />
[21:29:28] &lt;phed_&gt; Ganneff: ie this is our master list of "recipes" (ie what becomes packages): http://www.gobolinux.org/websvn/dir.php?repname=recipes&path=%2Frevisions%2F<br />
[21:29:30] &lt;f13&gt; Does KDE have a mailing list or whatnot for distributors?<br />
[21:29:32] &lt;kgoetz&gt; Nightrose: often ;)<br />
[21:29:36] &lt;spot&gt; Nightrose: we only put kittens in our mouth.<br />
[21:29:39] &lt;Nightrose&gt; f13: yes<br />
[21:29:47] &lt;Nightrose&gt; if you mean packaging<br />
[21:29:50] &lt;jtate&gt; f13: kde-packagers, but it's pretty low traffic<br />
[21:29:52] &lt;Nightrose&gt; spot: ;-)<br />
[21:29:54] &lt;phed_&gt; Ganneff: Does debian have a 1:1 mapping with filedownloads from upstream?<br />
[21:29:56] &lt;eeanm&gt; and Amarok has a secret list for distributors<br />
[21:30:03] &lt;kenvandine&gt; phed_: ripping off conary terms i see... "recipes" is how we define our source... and we "cook" them into the repo<br />
[21:30:03] &lt;f13&gt; Nightrose: cool, so that's where i'd expect the Fedora and kubuntu and whomever folks to interact<br />
[21:30:03] &lt;dberkholz&gt; seems like all the -packagers list are low-traffic. the X one is, too.<br />
[21:30:06] &lt;kenvandine&gt; :)<br />
[21:30:11] &lt;Ganneff&gt; phed_: i dont think we have what you mean<br />
[21:30:25] &lt;mukidohime&gt; phed_: 1:1 as in 1 source = 1 binary?  No.<br />
[21:30:36] &lt;phed_&gt; ok. nice to know<br />
[21:30:52] &lt;Nightrose&gt; f13: you mean like this channel but kde centered? I am not sure - maybe - but I was thinking more about a packagers list - that exists<br />
[21:30:54] &lt;phed_&gt; I think we need a way to connect to upstream pr recipe<br />
[21:31:03] &lt;Nightrose&gt; the distro list is pretty low traffic IIRC<br />
[21:31:03] &lt;f13&gt; Nightrose: either or.<br />
[21:31:12] &lt;Nightrose&gt; ok<br />
[21:31:33] &lt;eeanm&gt; jtate: send me your email if you to be on the amarok-packagers list<br />
[21:31:33] &lt;f13&gt; Ok, anything further for kubuntu before we move on to OpenSuSE?<br />
[21:31:37] &lt;f13&gt; (am I typing that right?)<br />
[21:31:41] &lt;jtate&gt; eeanm: I think I'm already on it<br />
[21:31:43] &lt;dberkholz&gt; SUSE now, i think<br />
[21:31:43] &lt;Nightrose&gt; we already have a bunch of other dostropeople in #kubuntu-devel<br />
[21:31:50] &lt;eeanm&gt; jtate: ah good :)<br />
[21:31:51] &lt;Nightrose&gt; so you are more than welcome to join and discuss<br />
[21:32:10] &lt;Nightrose&gt; *distro<br />
[21:32:11] &lt;phed_&gt; kenvandine: well, I am interested to learn about it. I think we do want to supply a link to upstream pr recipe<br />
[21:32:35] &lt;mrdocs&gt; ok opensuse - first disclaimer im not a novell employee, a "member", and upstream as a core dev for Scribus<br />
[21:32:36] &lt;mukidohime&gt; phed_: Every debian source package can specify a Homepage: field.<br />
[21:32:44] &lt;phed_&gt; yes, we do so as well<br />
<a name='14'></a>
[21:32:56] &lt;phed_&gt; http://recipes.gobolinux.org/ - to see how we do it<br />
[21:33:03] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Kickoff Meeting - Distro soundoff (OpenSUSE) (agenda: http://dpaste.com/hold/43157/)<br />
<a name='15'></a>
[21:33:13] &lt;mrdocs&gt; ok opensuse - first disclaimer im not a novell employee, a "member", and upstream as a core dev for Scribus<br />
[21:33:27] &lt;phed_&gt; mukidohime: but in some cases we want to point to ubuntu's platform who'se name escape me<br />
[21:33:30] &lt;kenvandine&gt; phed_: ping me anytime<br />
[21:34:01] &lt;phed_&gt; kenvandine: I will be around. I am a rabid gobo developer so expect me ;)<br />
[21:34:02] &lt;mrdocs&gt; which might be interesting for you folks as i do package scribus for many platforms excepting debian as we have our own Devian dev who is fantastic<br />
[21:34:13] &lt;kenvandine&gt; :)<br />
[21:34:31] &lt;f13&gt; mrdocs: Ok, same question I asked ubuntu, can non-Novell employees commit to the OpenSUSE packages?<br />
[21:34:41] &lt;phed_&gt; kenvandine: it is a mighty interesting time for us, because as an alternative we have been allowed to "restart" a few ideas in linux<br />
[21:34:50] &lt;mrdocs&gt; f13: ill get to that :)<br />
[21:35:16] &lt;phed_&gt; kenvandine: even to the point of the packaging tools supporting non gnu-tools<br />
[21:35:33] &lt;phed_&gt; kenvandine: so we might be the first distro to work under both os x and cygwin :D<br />
[21:35:35] &lt;kenvandine&gt; cool<br />
[21:35:40] &lt;mrdocs&gt; opensuse which SLES is based on has ~ 13000 source rpms and with the addition of the opensuse build server a hugh pile of community created packages are available<br />
[21:35:40] &lt;kgoetz&gt; phed_: could you hold it for after?<br />
[21:35:45] &lt;phed_&gt; ok sorry<br />
[21:35:55] &lt;kgoetz&gt; thanks<br />
[21:36:00] * kenvandine is gonna have to head out though... sorry... <br />
[21:36:25] &lt;mrdocs&gt; the OBS is a very interesting part of how Suse/Novell interact with the larger opensuse community<br />
[21:36:58] &lt;dberkholz&gt; OBS is the build service?<br />
[21:36:58] &lt;f13&gt; OBS == Open Build System<br />
[21:37:04] &lt;f13&gt; er Service<br />
[21:37:34] &lt;kgoetz&gt; mrdocs: how many devs for opensuse?<br />
[21:37:37] &lt;mrdocs&gt; I ve been using OBS from the start and as it evolves it will be one mechanisms for the larger communitty to particpate and commit to Factory Factory = RH Rawhide<br />
[21:38:17] &lt;mrdocs&gt; formal membership has just started and there are ~ 70 members right now, but i think 3-5x that active packagers<br />
[21:38:53] &lt;mrdocs&gt; members are approved by the opensuse board and get an irc cloak and @opensuse.org address<br />
[21:39:24] &lt;phed_&gt; are there any rudimentary overview of OBS?<br />
[21:39:24] &lt;mrdocs&gt; on the road map are things like having a patch repo and a trust based system for non-Novell packagers<br />
[21:39:29] &lt;mrdocs&gt; getting<br />
[21:39:31] &lt;dberkholz&gt; are novell employees included in that number?<br />
[21:39:44] &lt;phed_&gt; ie. if it is compile-once:release-everywhere I foresee problems<br />
<a name='16'></a>
[21:40:03] &lt;mrdocs&gt; http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service<br />
[21:40:23] &lt;mrdocs&gt; dberkholz: some novell employees are some are not<br />
[21:40:50] &lt;phed_&gt; how do you add distros to the system?<br />
[21:41:16] &lt;mrdocs&gt; the build service is a build farm with command and web based interfaces to build on all suse distros versions/Mandriva/FC6-8/RHEL4-5/Centos 5<br />
[21:41:21] &lt;phed_&gt; ie. we have our own compilation service but lack farms<br />
[21:41:36] &lt;mrdocs&gt; plus you can also build Debian and Ubuntu as well<br />
[21:41:37] &lt;benJIman&gt; mrdocs: And ubuntu, Debian Etch<br />
[21:41:47] &lt;f13&gt; phed_: sounds like a good question to talk with the OpenSUSE folks after this meeting (:<br />
[21:41:52] &lt;mrdocs&gt; both 32 and64 bits<br />
[21:42:02] &lt;Ganneff&gt; it sounds like you reinvented the wheel, looking at debians autobuilder system, which is YEARS old :)<br />
[21:42:04] &lt;benJIman&gt; phed_: join #opensuse-buildservice to discuss further.<br />
[21:42:36] &lt;mrdocs&gt; the good thing is with OBS their is supprt for new packagers and even this weekend is a packaging day to help folks learn OBS and packaging<br />
[21:42:40] &lt;abadger1999&gt; Is Build_Service open source software?<br />
[21:42:45] &lt;mrdocs&gt; yes<br />
[21:43:02] &lt;mrdocs&gt; and you can build locally on your own box in a chroot or on the server<br />
[21:43:22] &lt;mrdocs&gt; it has live logs and a lot of other neatness<br />
[21:43:32] &lt;f13&gt; mrdocs: from everything I read on the opensuse web pages, and talking in #opensuse, it seemed that only Novell employees had commit and build rights to the packages shipped as "opensuse", and that non employees could only contribute to 3rd party repos through OBS.  Has that changed?<br />
[21:43:33] &lt;phed_&gt; yes, chroot with custom build instructions pr package is what we need<br />
[21:43:34] &lt;mrdocs&gt; for packaging Scribus its simply terrific<br />
[21:43:49] &lt;phed_&gt; and package as defined by us :P<br />
[21:44:13] &lt;mrdocs&gt; f13 that is changing and in OBS will soon have a mechanism to merge changes and patches from 3rd party<br />
[21:44:20] &lt;mrdocs&gt; packagers<br />
[21:44:30] &lt;f13&gt; mrdocs: that's great news<br />
[21:44:32] &lt;benJIman&gt; The submit-request feature is there since this week I believe.<br />
[21:44:54] &lt;mrdocs&gt; but the best thing with OBS is the way it has opened comminication between someone like my self wearing upstream hat and suse devs<br />
[21:44:57] &lt;benJIman&gt; It is not yet possible to use with factory though, you'd still have to find a Novell employee to commit it for you. But this will change in the next couple of months.<br />
[21:45:05] * mrdocs nods<br />
[21:45:42] &lt;mrdocs&gt; and even informally over irc, for my scribus package requested changes are recieved very well<br />
[21:45:47] &lt;f13&gt; nod.<br />
[21:46:00] &lt;f13&gt; Are there any further OpenSUSE questions?  I'd like to move on<br />
[21:46:15] &lt;mrdocs&gt; so for the rest of opensuse, i would just mention that it is a very new community and fluid<br />
[21:46:23] &lt;f13&gt; (and a related question, are there any other distro folks that are here and haven't talked yet?)<br />
[21:46:31] * mw works on opensuse<br />
[21:46:31] * Riddell wanders in late<br />
[21:46:33] &lt;mrdocs&gt; OBS is not yet a 1.0<br />
[21:46:39] &lt;Nightrose&gt; hey Riddell :)<br />
[21:46:44] &lt;mrdocs&gt; hi Jon<br />
[21:46:49] &lt;kgoetz&gt; f13: phed_ perhaps<br />
[21:46:57] &lt;Nightrose&gt; Riddell: you missed the kubuntu introduction by some minutes<br />
[21:47:17] &lt;mrdocs&gt; my other point being here is being upstream there are issues to tackle later on which could make our life easier<br />
[21:47:26] &lt;dberkholz&gt; i've got about 35 min before i've gotta run (not that y'all have to deal with my schedule)<br />
[21:47:55] &lt;james_w&gt; I'd be up for breaking off soon, we're almost two hours in, and we've just finished the first item.<br />
[21:48:07] &lt;mhomer&gt; I can cover GoboLinux, if nobody's done that already...<br />
[21:48:07] &lt;mrdocs&gt; someone mentioned patches from distros... to be honest Scribus gets the best cooperation from Gentoo and Suse<br />
[21:48:25] &lt;mrdocs&gt; and our Debian dev can commit directly<br />
[21:48:38] &lt;mrdocs&gt; any questions ?<br />
[21:49:03] &lt;mrdocs&gt; hi Bille<br />
[21:49:06] &lt;f13&gt; ok.<br />
[21:49:14] &lt;f13&gt; phed_: did you want a few minutes to talk about gobo?<br />
[21:49:27] &lt;Ganneff&gt; oh, while i was looking at /whois of someone here to see who he is: Could people *PLEASE* set realnames in their ircname field, so others know who they talk to? *pretty* please.<br />
[21:49:28] &lt;f13&gt; and then I'd like to briefly hit the another couple things and then I have to jet too.<br />
[21:49:30] &lt;dberkholz&gt; wouldn't mind hearing it from mhomer either, if phed_'s not around<br />
[21:49:59] &lt;f13&gt; alright<br />
[21:50:01] &lt;mhomer&gt; I will do it. but I just got here, so what do you want to hear?<br />
[21:50:16] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Kickoff Meeting - Distro soundoff (GoboLinux) (agenda: http://dpaste.com/hold/43157/)<br />
<a name='17'></a>
[21:50:45] &lt;f13&gt; mhomer: see the dpaste link in topic for what we're looking for.  Basically what you are, releases comingup, how you get contributions, etc..<br />
[21:51:58] &lt;phed_&gt; f13: I will leave it to mhomer<br />
[21:51:59] &lt;mhomer&gt; GoboLinux is a distribution with a different filesystem hierarchy; each program is installed into its own directory, and tools symlink the contents of those directories into a global hierarchy.<br />
[21:52:55] &lt;mhomer&gt; We have just made our 014.01 release, which is a bugfix release to 014 and so should be as stable as possible. The next release will be about four to six months away.<br />
[21:53:08] &lt;f13&gt; ... "014" ?<br />
[21:53:46] &lt;mhomer&gt; Programs are compiled from "recipes", which are very simple sets of instructions for how to build it. For autoconf-based software, that's usually two lines long.<br />
[21:53:47] &lt;dberkholz&gt; is that octal?<br />
[21:54:05] &lt;hpj&gt; oo, octal<br />
[21:54:07] &lt;mhomer&gt; It's octal. I don't know why that was necessary<br />
[21:54:48] &lt;mukidohime&gt; At least it's not the digits of pi.<br />
[21:54:50] &lt;mhomer&gt; Recipes can also contain patches that are applied when compiling the software, but by policy we only patch bugs and do not add features or customise them that way.<br />
[21:54:58] &lt;wstephenson&gt; or 4.2<br />
[21:54:59] &lt;phed_&gt; it is gobo's adherence to non-formality :)<br />
[21:55:18] &lt;shevy&gt; to something *different*<br />
[21:55:33] &lt;phed_&gt; octal means it will get a major bump every 8th version, which emulates business practice<br />
[21:55:47] &lt;leio&gt; sounds very similar to gentoo, except the path mangling (and binaries being the distributed media?)<br />
[21:55:49] &lt;f13&gt; which business?<br />
[21:55:59] &lt;phed_&gt; that is correct leio<br />
[21:56:07] &lt;mhomer&gt; Building recipes is fairly simple, and so most of those are contributed from the community. `MakeRecipe <url-to-software>` works for most software. They're then reviewed by one of the developers and put into the public repository.<br />
[21:56:08] &lt;phed_&gt; f13: ref. wp vs word :)<br />
[21:56:50] &lt;f13&gt; Ok, I've got like 2 minutes before I have to catch a bus.<br />
[21:56:51] &lt;mhomer&gt; We also have binary packages. Those are compiled from the same recipes, within a chroot for consistency's sake<br />
[21:57:02] &lt;f13&gt; We've got a couple more topics, that we can rush through (sorry to cut GoboLinux short a bit)<br />
[21:57:09] &lt;mhomer&gt; In theory, the package and a recipe compiled from that should be the same.<br />
[21:57:12] &lt;mhomer&gt; And I'm basically done<br />
[21:57:22] &lt;kgoetz&gt; would it be better to defer the other topics?<br />
[21:57:25] &lt;f13&gt; #topic Kickoff Meeting - Next Meeting<br />
<a name='18'></a>
[21:57:39] &lt;f13&gt; So this was very good for me, and I hope others.  I'd like to do it again soon<br />
[21:57:59] &lt;f13&gt; Looking at the agenda list, I think a wiki somewhere that we can toss up future agenda items and meeting suggestions, etc... would be good<br />
[21:58:09] &lt;f13&gt; and we had a number of ideas pop up today.<br />
[21:58:10] &lt;kgoetz&gt; have to say its been a good meeting, discovery wise<br />
[21:58:14] &lt;f13&gt; and we coudl post meeting logs there too<br />
[21:58:33] &lt;eeanm&gt; we already have meeting logs posted somewhere<br />
[21:58:43] &lt;vuntz&gt; f13: we can use the fd.o wiki for now, and I can ask for distributions.freedesktop.org to be set up<br />
[21:58:44] &lt;f13&gt; eeanm: isn't this our first meeting?<br />
[21:58:53] &lt;dberkholz&gt; sure. i think you need to do #endmeeting once we're done, to get the bot to stop logging<br />
[21:59:02] &lt;f13&gt; I propose we go back to the list to pick out our next meeting day/time.<br />
[21:59:03] &lt;mukidohime&gt; There seems to be quite a lot of call for a wiki.<br />
[21:59:18] &lt;phed_&gt; yes, there are already a few subprojects of the wiki wanting a page<br />
[21:59:25] &lt;phed_&gt; s/wiki/mailinglist/<br />
[21:59:43] &lt;eeanm&gt; f13: that debian meetingbot is posting it<br />
[21:59:49] &lt;f13&gt; eeanm: ok, cool.<br />
[21:59:52] &lt;f13&gt; with that...<br />
[21:59:54] &lt;vuntz&gt; okay, I'll work on setting up the wiki, then<br />
[21:59:57] &lt;f13&gt; #endmeeting<br />
<hr>Meeting ended.<br /><hr><p>Information on meetbot is available at <a href='http://meetbot.debian.net'>meetbot.debian.net</a></p>