17:08:23 <isabela> #startmeeting ux team biweekly meeting
17:08:23 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Aug 24 17:08:23 2016 UTC.  The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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17:08:34 <ame_e> sounds good!
17:08:35 <isabela> alright i sent an agenda
17:08:52 <isabela> 1. guidelines status update
17:08:53 <isabela> 2. release to the community status update
17:08:53 <isabela> 3. project documentation status update
17:08:53 <isabela> 4. what else?
17:09:41 <isabela> is that good for folks? i would like that #4 to be  ux team at dev meeting discussion
17:09:50 <scouttle> If there's time, maybe talking through how much UX discussion will likely happen at Seattle meeting?
17:10:19 <PhilipL> that would be interesting
17:10:22 <scouttle> Yeah. Right now I'm still on the fence about whether I should go. :)
17:10:41 <PhilipL> me too with tendency to not going
17:10:54 <isabela> scouttle: that is what i am suggesting for #4
17:11:17 <isabela> i think it would be great to have as many people from this team there as possible
17:11:26 <isabela> but we can chat more when we get to#4
17:11:36 <isabela> maybe we should start with #1 ?
17:11:41 <isabela> anyone wants to give an update?
17:12:05 <PhilipL> Having Elio here would be great
17:12:49 <ame_e> Elio? You here?
17:13:00 <ame_e> Haven't talked to him since my travels.
17:13:03 <isabela> i think he is not here yet
17:13:38 <PhilipL> :) i guess we'll have to go on without him
17:13:44 <scouttle> I will ping him by email to see if he can join
17:13:45 <PhilipL> i havent heard from him neither
17:13:50 <isabela> ok
17:14:47 <scouttle> We have a draft of the complete style guide, which Isa has seen and which Ame has provided some comments on. I don't know if he's had a chance to update it after receiving Ame's comments.
17:15:11 <scouttle> Should we move on to talk about other agenda items while we wait to see whether he will join?
17:15:24 <isabela> sure
17:15:26 <PhilipL> yes lets do that
17:15:35 <scouttle> I think if he misses the meeting, it will be possible to send out an update with the draft via email before the next meeting
17:15:40 <isabela> i created a template for a letter to the community announcing the guidelines
17:15:43 <isabela> template/draft
17:16:03 <isabela> is normally how i used to announce things at twitter
17:16:15 <isabela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/GNPylaghE3sYYwVswJ16mUktCEKWN7J8iYs0QGCxDlQ
17:16:28 <ame_e> Elio won't be able to join this session.
17:16:54 <micah> chloe: have you seen the write-up by the ipredator people on how they made the fastest tor exit? might give some hints!
17:16:56 <isabela> sorry there is only questions but i guess you can get the idea of the approach i am trying here
17:17:21 <micah> chloe: https://ipredator.se/guide/torserver
17:17:34 <chloe> micah: Yes, I have. Great writeup and we've taken a lot of inspiration from that article and thinking about doing the same!
17:17:35 <isabela> I believe the big question from most people will be how this affects a site they maintain i.e. logo of metrics.torproject.org
17:17:46 <micah> chloe: cool :)
17:18:23 <isabela> how this will be changed and by who
17:19:06 <PhilipL> If it is not a rebranding, it should not animate to redesign existing stuff for updating. It should only take effect when designing something new.
17:19:19 <isabela> because after the release of the guidelines we will have to deal with the legacy
17:19:53 <isabela> well the rules for name of products is somethig we will have to update
17:20:15 <PhilipL> ok thats right
17:20:25 <isabela> so that is what i am talking about
17:21:00 <isabela> once the guidelines is released the next phase is to update the existent products/portals to follow it
17:21:15 <scouttle> It's not a rebrand for Tor, but it is an effort to help the larger Tor community standardize on a visual presentation
17:21:16 <isabela> and i believe that will be a question/concern from the community
17:21:27 <scouttle> Yes, absolutely
17:22:02 <scouttle> I agree that that will be the major concern/effort from lots of the projects within the community
17:22:37 <scouttle> It would be nice to say that there's a cut-and-dry, black-and-white rule that we can apply
17:23:02 <PhilipL> So we should write that we see the necessity of standardisation by now and should write clearly who should follow the instructions to implement new things
17:23:08 <scouttle> but I suspect that the wisest course of action is going to be to try and gradually sort out which projects should fall under the official Tor umbrella, and be consistent visually
17:23:29 <scouttle> and which projects should be more loosely affiliated and have their own independent visual identity
17:23:39 <isabela> scouttle: yep
17:23:46 <scouttle> with the ultimate goal of having everything in the Tor ecosystem be consistent – just gradually
17:24:14 <isabela> we need to create tiers of 'transition' or 'upgrades'
17:24:23 <scouttle> If the UX team were to really evangelize this effort
17:24:33 <scouttle> a representative would meet with each project team individually
17:24:38 <isabela> so we do tier 1, then we can look into tier 2 and so on
17:24:39 <PhilipL> will we find a definition about what is under the official Tor umbrella or will we have to make a list/sort out?
17:24:40 <scouttle> answer their questions
17:24:52 <scouttle> and come up with a timeline for transition
17:25:13 <scouttle> where for some projects the answer is "some point in the next three years", and that's ok
17:25:24 <isabela> so my idea is that we can also have this discussion with the communit at the dev meeting
17:25:28 <scouttle> PhilipL good question.
17:25:31 <isabela> that is why i was proposing the session 'guidelines and whats next'
17:25:36 <scouttle> isabela that makes sense
17:26:02 <scouttle> isabela do you have a sense of what the tiers would be at this point?
17:26:10 <isabela> we can send this email laying out things before the meeting but letting people know the session will happen for the plan to be finalized
17:26:14 <isabela> scouttle: yes
17:26:38 <scouttle> that plan (email before dev meeting) makes sense
17:26:59 <isabela> scouttle: and i can even have a proposal of what those tiers are linked to the email
17:27:18 <isabela> scouttle: like a spreadsheet listing what is in each tier
17:27:22 <scouttle> yes, perhaps put them in the bottom of the pad for now?
17:27:31 <isabela> sure
17:27:52 <dcf1> Am I right in thinking that the tier-1 projects would be things like the home page, the blog, and applications like Tor Browser?
17:28:07 <PhilipL> Having a representative sounds good. But let's not formulate it as a design police. If they can handle the guidelines it will be ok. But working together with the other projects could help understanding our brand
17:28:09 <dcf1> And lower tiers, less visible things like Trac, gitweb, metrics?
17:28:18 <scouttle> from a naive perspective, without any understanding of the social / political dynamics: from a design perspective I would expect that tier 1 would be projects that use a version of the onion logo
17:28:25 <isabela> dcf1: metrics would be on tier 1
17:28:32 <scouttle> so that there is, so to speak, one onion to rule them all
17:28:42 <isabela> dcf1: any application that is still on beta would be tier 2
17:28:45 <isabela> more or less
17:28:49 <dcf1> isabela: ok
17:30:04 <scouttle> Looking at the Software & Services page, the things that use the onion logo include the Tor Browser, the Metrics Portal, Pluggable Transports, Orbot, TorBirdy, and txtorcon
17:30:29 <isabela> so yes, the plan is to get finish preparting this 'internal release email' to start the conversation and finish it at the dev meeting in that session
17:30:47 <isabela> i would not necessary go by what is on the page
17:30:58 <isabela> like tor birdy is still beta
17:31:03 <scouttle> gotcha
17:31:09 <scouttle> that makes sense
17:31:35 <scouttle> so, in that case I would encourage the team to prioritize things that (mis)use the Tor logo that aren't in beta
17:31:39 <isabela> once we have a final plan by the dev meeting the next phase would be to execute it
17:31:44 <scouttle> and then have an explicit beta tag on things that are in beta
17:32:00 <isabela> sure
17:34:29 <PhilipL> so, that amount of projects is manageable
17:34:46 <isabela> yes
17:34:57 <scouttle> isabela are there other projects not listed on that webpage?
17:35:03 <scouttle> or is that an accurate representation of the total?
17:35:04 <PhilipL> who else, other than the mentioned projects, will read the post or need the styleguide?
17:35:12 <isabela> orfox / tor browser for android
17:35:45 <Stockbrot> i have a question regarding the main tor protocol specification. i read about a link protocol version in the spec. is this the same thing as the directory protocol version or is it something different?
17:35:48 <PhilipL> people that will prepare sheets for presentations maybe?
17:36:09 <dcf1> scouttle: metrics has several sub-projects that use variations of the onion
17:36:20 <isabela> PhilipL: we have a company we hired to build our donation infra for crowdfunding campaigns which is already got the guidelines and will be following it
17:36:27 <dcf1> https://metrics.torproject.org/ https://collector.torproject.org/ https://exonerator.torproject.org/ (maybe others)
17:36:40 <isabela> PhilipL: another one is that we are hiring people to update our blog which will also receive the guidelines for them to follow
17:36:54 <isabela> so little by little we will be rolling it out
17:37:20 <isabela> dcf1: yep
17:38:32 <scouttle> dcf1 that's interesting. Some of those uses of the onion are visually attractive, but would not be in compliance with the style guide as it is currently drafted.
17:38:58 <PhilipL> good. i don't see any additional information for them. As long as we let them know that they can contact us and that we'd love to see beta designs, it's ok I guess
17:39:34 <isabela> scouttle: yes, and they were created like an year ago so I think that will be a concern the metrics team might have
17:39:39 <scouttle> as this conversation indicates, the style guide doesn't go into detail on exactly what projects should or should not be compliant with it – that's a policy decision the community needs to make
17:39:42 <isabela> scouttle: to have to change it all over again
17:39:46 <scouttle> yes.
17:39:55 <scouttle> so, if I were writing the policy by myself
17:40:12 <scouttle> I would perhaps consider there to be a permanent tier1 and tier2
17:40:20 <scouttle> or set of "core" projects and "non-core" projects
17:40:43 <scouttle> and say that all "core" projects must aim to be in alignment with the styleguide
17:40:59 <isabela> yes
17:41:04 <scouttle> and that non-core projects don't have to ... but that if they aren't in alignment with it, they can't use the tor onion
17:41:07 <scouttle> they can use other onions
17:41:10 <scouttle> but not the tor onion
17:41:24 <scouttle> so, https://collector.torproject.org/ could have a basket of green onions that are a somewhat different shape
17:41:44 <isabela> i would put collector on tier 1 tho
17:41:48 <scouttle> and maintain their blue buttons, etc., if it was decided that they were non-core
17:42:02 <scouttle> ah
17:42:04 <isabela> is a very important piece of the work metrics team does
17:42:15 <scouttle> in that case this would mean them changing their logo and their CSS, then
17:42:23 <isabela> yes
17:42:38 <isabela> like i said, i believe the metrics portals will be the big thing here and we shold work with the team on that
17:42:51 <isabela> i guess they might be concerned with help on getting things done too
17:42:58 <dcf1> There's a metrics team meeting tomorrow btw.
17:43:07 <isabela> i know but it might be too soon
17:43:17 <isabela> i would like to send that email first
17:43:26 <isabela> so people understands where we are coming from
17:43:41 <isabela> otherwise without context it will be much harder to get the buy in
17:43:42 <scouttle> Agreed. Let's not make folks anxious about proposed changes without letting them know what the proposal is!
17:43:57 <PhilipL> good point
17:44:38 <isabela> in another note - the metrics team will probably want to do a session at the dev meeting about the usability of their main site
17:44:41 <PhilipL> but we would not leave them alone the the styleguidelines, so they don’t need to be afraid.
17:44:42 <isabela> metrics.tpo
17:44:51 * GeKo is around in case this is somewhat useful
17:44:56 <isabela> which i am making a wireframe as a proposal on how it can be redesigned
17:45:21 <isabela> they got a grant from mozilla and one of the milestones is to improve th usability of their main site
17:45:51 <isabela> that is why i think it will be important for people involved with ux to be at the meeting to participate on these conversations
17:47:54 <PhilipL> i see. who else of us was thinking of going?
17:48:21 * isabela wonders if elio is considering going too
17:48:25 <scouttle> after hearing Isa's plans I think I will attend
17:48:28 <scouttle> that's a good question
17:48:33 <scouttle> (about Elio)
17:48:34 <ame_e> I don't know.
17:49:02 <ame_e> There had been talk of a Berlin meeting? Which I think Elio was in town for other reasons around the same time.
17:49:24 <PhilipL> yes. for mozilla reasons, i remember
17:49:36 <ame_e> That sounds right.
17:49:53 <ame_e> But the question isabela asked was about Seattle, right?
17:50:13 <isabela> yes
17:50:22 <GeKo> i am fine doing stuff during the berlin meeting
17:50:33 <isabela> GeKo: what are the dates again?
17:50:36 <GeKo> maybe there is something we can prepare for seattle?
17:50:37 <scouttle> if he had business in berlin, I'm guessing he won't be able to go to Seattle, But I'll ping him and ask.
17:50:47 <GeKo> 9/8-9/11
17:51:18 <ame_e> Thanks.
17:51:45 <isabela> maybe if people will be in the berlin meeting they can answer questions folks might have regarding the guidelines
17:51:53 <isabela> like a Q&A session or something
17:52:07 <isabela> hopefully the email announcing will be out in the list already
17:52:08 <isabela> :)
17:52:14 <isabela> actually it will!~
17:52:15 <isabela> hehe
17:52:39 <GeKo> yeah, sounds like a good idea
17:54:16 <isabela> ok
17:54:27 <isabela> i guess we kind of talked about #2 and #4 :)
17:54:48 <isabela> about project documentation - i put ame_e process in the wiki
17:54:55 <ame_e> Thank you
17:54:59 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/UxTeam/StyleGuidelines
17:55:26 <isabela> i think today's meeting gave also an idea of how the rest of the process will look like
17:56:38 <isabela> maybe the tiers lists should exist in the wiki
17:56:53 <isabela> so is all in one place
17:57:11 <scouttle> I think that's a good idea
17:57:24 <scouttle> which location should be the master copy while drafting?
17:58:34 <isabela> we could do like this:
17:58:41 <isabela> 1. use the pad to draft the email and the list
17:59:02 <isabela> 2. once those are done, migrate the tiers lists to the wiki
17:59:13 <isabela> 3. have a link to in the email
17:59:29 <scouttle> sounds good. pad is easier to edit. :)
17:59:41 <isabela> yep
18:00:06 <flexlibris> helloooo
18:00:14 <kat5> howdy
18:00:17 <isabela> ops! community team meeting?
18:00:26 <flexlibris> whenever yall are finished
18:00:28 <flexlibris> hi kat5
18:00:37 <isabela> alright we are close!
18:00:47 <kat5> hi flexlibris :-)
18:00:53 <isabela> scouttle and ame_e whenver the final edits are done please email the guidelines to the list
18:00:59 <isabela> and we can continue the conversation there too
18:01:11 <scouttle> sounds good!
18:01:14 <isabela> i will share the link to this pad there + add more things to it  too
18:01:17 <PhilipL> Thank you guys
18:01:20 <scouttle> thank you all!
18:01:24 <isabela> thanks everyone!
18:01:31 <isabela> #endmeeting