17:00:05 <isabela> #startmeeting
17:00:05 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Mar 24 17:00:05 2016 UTC.  The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:05 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:12 <isabela> welcome everyone
17:00:52 <isabela> should we check who is here for the meeting? and move on to talk about scouttle draft?
17:00:57 <mrphs> o/
17:01:04 <lnl> Here.
17:01:08 * dcf1 me
17:01:10 <Sebastian> <-
17:01:11 <scouttle> present!
17:01:19 <isabela> awesome
17:01:34 <isabela> scouttle: do you want to say some words on your draft for the meeting?
17:02:14 <scouttle> Sure! First off, here is the doc: https://github.com/simplysecure/tor/blob/master/CreativeBriefforTorProjectStyleGuide.pdf
17:02:22 <scouttle> is everyone able and comfortable accessing it?
17:02:32 <mrphs> works for me
17:03:09 <isabela> yep
17:03:11 <lnl> Works for me.
17:03:12 <isabela> oi ame_e
17:03:15 <ame_e> oi.
17:03:20 <ame_e> Apologies.
17:03:27 <mrphs> isabela: it might be a good idea, long term wise, to use the #topic option of meetbot.
17:03:35 <isabela> sure
17:03:36 <meejah> sorry to butt in, can I add an agenda item for the end? "there's a GSoC project proposal relating to usability lacking a mentor; have ux-interested people seen it?"
17:03:51 <Sebastian> meejah: we can do that!
17:03:59 <isabela> meejah: awesome!
17:04:21 <lnl> What is GSoC?
17:04:26 <Sebastian> google summer of code
17:04:33 <mrphs> meejah: where's the project proposal?
17:04:34 <lnl> Oh, I see.
17:04:43 <Sebastian> let's not get sidetracked now?
17:04:56 <isabela> :)
17:04:57 <mrphs> ah yes. back to scouttle :)
17:05:19 <scouttle> ok
17:05:19 * meejah lurks until ping'd
17:05:25 <isabela> ok
17:05:43 <scouttle> so, we got a little bit of feedback via email about the de-emphasis of logos that I thought was an excellent point
17:06:10 * isabela wonders if we should list in the pad the tasks that are coming out from this feedbacks, like the catalog of logos
17:06:32 <scouttle> that sounds good
17:06:48 * isabela opens the pad
17:07:04 <mrphs> that feedback on incostintecny of use of tor logo was excellent and very much on point.
17:07:28 <scouttle> on logos: I would like to change the doc to include some work in that direction – making sure the team has versions of the logo at different sizes and color profiles – under the assumption that some of the inconsistency has come in simply because people didn't have access to the logo files they needed
17:07:36 <mrphs> funny part, is that there was two more tor logos that sajolida missed to point on their screenshot. but that only makes things more sad :)
17:07:52 <lnl> :(
17:07:55 <Victor> I'm present FYI!
17:08:13 * scouttle nods
17:08:24 <scouttle> mrphs are those the tor browser logos?
17:08:27 <scouttle> (the globe?)
17:08:32 <mcs> Is it reasonable to ail for scalable artwork for logos, e.g., SVG format?
17:08:41 <mcs> to ask for
17:08:44 <mrphs> one is that, and then there's another one on top in gray color
17:08:49 <isabela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/phWpVhEhG5KYmvkas56myNolkqDtRWDYbDw3rHdMiBh
17:08:57 <isabela> ^^ pad in case anyone was looking for the url
17:09:46 <lnl> +1 for SVG
17:10:01 <scouttle> yes, we can definitely get logos in whatever formats the team needs
17:10:08 <scouttle> the key is to identify what the desired formats are
17:10:14 <lnl> I would personally love a logo simple enough to use for small and large things.
17:10:25 <lnl> And that would look okay if printed in grayscale (or we can have a grayscale version).
17:10:30 <lnl> And no text.
17:10:41 <isabela> about logos: I keep thinking how different producs (tor browser and tor messenger for instance) has their logos on tor launcher.... should that be how we do it? is the same piece of software (the launcher) but different products
17:10:44 <lnl> But I am kind of just listing preferences and this isn't based off "expertise"
17:10:58 <dcf1> I *think* somewhat official SVGs of the current wordmark are here:
17:11:00 <dcf1> https://media.torproject.org/image/official-images/
17:11:13 <dcf1> I agree that I think many people do not know that they are hidden there.
17:11:20 <dcf1> https://media.torproject.org/image/official-images/2011-tor-logo-flat.svg
17:11:33 <dcf1> There might be other sources I don't know about.
17:11:40 <scouttle> oh, wow, I didn't know those existed
17:11:55 <scouttle> those are the cleanest ones I've seen yet
17:12:11 <mcs> dcf1: I knew about those at some point but forgot they existed. Thanks.
17:12:45 <scouttle> there is another question that this group should ponder, although doesn't need to be answered today:
17:13:01 <scouttle> once the style guide is created, how do we work to promote it within the tor dev community?
17:13:26 <mrphs> we should def have a page on website that explains the use of tor logo
17:13:34 <isabela> scouttle: I can start a draft for that - i have talk about it with applications team
17:13:49 <Lunar> that will be quick
17:14:12 <Lunar> most of us aren't designers, so if we have guidelines that tell us how to do things, it's going to remove cognitive load :)
17:14:18 <isabela> hehe
17:14:28 <Victor> i spot the ux person
17:14:58 <scouttle> ok
17:14:58 <Lunar> but maybe that's too optimistic :)
17:15:15 <scouttle> I think that keeping the fact that it exists in people's mind may be tricky
17:15:22 <isabela> we should have an 'adoption' letter explaining how to use it in their project
17:15:25 <scouttle> if the UX team is active and talking at dev meetings, it will help!
17:15:29 <isabela> where it is, how to find it
17:15:32 <mrphs> baby steps. (but this baby can grow big fast :)
17:15:33 <isabela> who to ask questions about it
17:15:38 <Sebastian> It's not like we aren't asked frequently for help
17:15:42 <Sebastian> and then nobody answers
17:15:43 <isabela> so we can point dev teams to
17:15:48 <Sebastian> so I think with time that problem solves itself
17:15:53 <Victor> The more important question to answer for them is Why they should use it.
17:16:12 <isabela> I think most teams wants to use it and wont be surprised byt it
17:16:15 <isabela> by it
17:16:24 <mrphs> I just wanna add a note: just because we have an svg file doesnt mean people know how to use it. it's just a file for download.
17:16:52 <lnl> I agree with Lunar that most people will be glad that they don't need to think about which one to use.
17:16:57 <scouttle> mrphs are you talking in terms of how to use it in a visual design? or how to use it in terms of if it needs to be resized, etc. – technical things?
17:17:06 <isabela> mrphs: I think we are talking about sharing the guidelines when its done
17:17:59 <lnl> Victor: why we want a unified image is to look more consistent and polished. It makes us look more professional. Users don't make trust assumptions correctly, and there have been studies shown that non-technical users trust based on "look and feel" of websites.
17:18:25 <lnl> (I think that study was in the context of phishing, and how people determined what looked like a legitimate site and what didn't.)
17:18:44 <lnl> (Maybe this will help the "real" Tor look better than other ones floating around?)
17:18:53 <lnl> I also just think it looks nice to look nice.
17:18:58 <scouttle> Ok. The questions of promoting the style guide among the team and working to ensure its adoption are important, but not things we'll likely answer during this meeting.
17:19:12 <scouttle> So, back to the draft of the creative brief. What other thoughts did people have?
17:19:14 <lnl> Scouttle: yes.
17:19:29 <scouttle> Does it do a good job of capturing the priorities for the first version of the style guide?
17:19:42 <scouttle> Note the open questions around the comms assets – slide templates, business cards, etc.
17:19:45 <scouttle> Any thoughts there?
17:19:48 <isabela> scouttle: I think we should work on collecting the answers to your open questions there
17:19:55 <Sebastian> Should Yeah, for the open questions:
17:20:24 <Sebastian> programs people use most are latex beamer, openoffice whatever it is, apple keynote
17:20:37 <Sebastian> I think PowerPoint is not used much
17:20:43 <dcf1> About slide templates, there are some past presentations at
17:20:52 <dcf1> https://media.torproject.org/outreach-material/presentations/lsm2013/2013-07-08-LSM2013.pdf
17:20:55 <dcf1> Some of them seem to be using a common design, like
17:21:02 <Sebastian> https://svn.torproject.org/svn/projects/presentations/
17:21:09 <dcf1> https://media.torproject.org/outreach-material/presentations/30c3/slides-30c3.pdf https://media.torproject.org/outreach-material/presentations/lsm2013/2013-07-08-LSM2013.pdf
17:21:15 <Sebastian> there's a big archive at my link.
17:21:18 <Sebastian> mostly historical
17:21:26 <dcf1> Oops, I meant to link https://media.torproject.org/outreach-material/presentations/
17:22:01 <Victor> ln1 -I understand why, but including the Why into the document is important for adoption in the community. The byproduct we want is  of course creating a trust with the user by keeping a consistent look and feel. That is the question here right? What needs to be included in the brief and final release of assets to the team?
17:22:07 <ame_e> Frantically copying links. That's A LOT of material.
17:22:12 <dcf1> Regarding business cards, I have a business card from arma5 (Roger). I don't know if there are others like it.
17:22:35 <Sebastian> Business cards are only for employees. Some templates exist.
17:22:39 <isabela> i think i have examples of formats from business cards on my emails
17:23:00 <Sebastian> There was some ruckus about making templates for volunteers/contractors
17:23:01 <isabela> leiah sent to me to pick from
17:24:01 <scouttle> Victor: yes, the goal is to discuss what should be included in the brief
17:24:06 <isabela> ok - we are about to run out of time, should we work on documenting these answers in the pad?
17:24:17 <Lunar> I made one for me that spells out volunteer
17:24:18 <isabela> we still have gsoc to talk about
17:24:19 <scouttle> note that the goal of the brief is to communicate the project to the designer we are going to hire
17:24:23 <Sebastian> isabela: we need to ask office staff about letterhead I think.
17:24:29 <scouttle> ok
17:24:31 <Sebastian> other questions are answered in backlog?
17:24:32 <isabela> Sebastian: I can do that
17:24:41 <scouttle> so if you all can gather data on the open questions highlighted in the doc
17:25:02 <scouttle> it's totally ok (and even good) if the consensus is that the project doesn't need all those things
17:25:13 <scouttle> i.e., if the business cards are already good and consistent, etc., that's fine
17:25:29 <mrphs> um they arent :)
17:25:36 <scouttle> heh
17:25:42 <isabela> scouttle: I shared the doc with vegas teams leads today will try to follow up with shari when she is feeling better (she is sick now :( )
17:25:45 <Sebastian> they aren't, my point is that maybe they *can't* be for volunteers/contractors.
17:25:45 <lnl> lol
17:25:59 <lnl> sebastian: +1
17:26:10 <scouttle> while gathering data, can you also get a sense of whether the rough prioritization (slide templates, letterhead, business cards) is the right order?
17:26:11 <lnl> Or not worth the effort, even if it is?
17:26:18 <Sebastian> lnl: ack
17:26:21 <scouttle> as perceived by Shari and other staff?
17:26:40 <isabela> scouttle: see above ^^ :)
17:26:44 <Victor> Also, I'm fairly new to this effort and I'd like to know how I can assist directly. I'm coming from a UX background. I've seen a lot of pre-established teams already working on various items, how does one start getting directly involved?
17:27:19 <scouttle> my thinking is thus: we are going to get approval from OTF for a certain budget for this project. We can get an estimate from designer how long each part will take, but it will be just an estimate.
17:27:44 <scouttle> The goal is to have this be just a first phase, so it would be good to know which pieces we can abandon if we start to get close to the budget but haven't finished the most important bits.
17:27:57 <mrphs> scouttle: we also need a guide to use logo for whatever, basically.
17:27:58 <isabela> scouttle: sure
17:28:11 <mrphs> whether that's a graphic for twitter or an icon in a software
17:28:11 <Sebastian> Presentation is by far the most important of the three
17:28:20 <Sebastian> that are listed in the brief
17:28:43 <scouttle> mrphs yes, I see that as part of the core style guide work, and will endeavor to rephrase current wording in the doc to that effect
17:28:55 <mrphs> awesome
17:29:00 <dcf1> Victor, let's talk right after the meeting.
17:29:12 <Sebastian> let's get to meejah?
17:29:28 <scouttle> Sebastian that was my sense as well. The trick will be coming up with a template that can be used in all the different programs/formats that folks use for presentations
17:29:31 <isabela> scouttle: i will get that for you but it might not be soon since shari is sick / i keep you updated
17:29:36 <Victor> dcf1, sounds good!
17:29:39 <scouttle> isabela absolutely, makes sense
17:29:52 <meejah> okay, a person started a PR for txtorcon, looking to apply to GSoC
17:30:02 <meejah> and mentioned their "other" application, which lacked a mentor
17:30:10 <meejah> https://gist.github.com/felipedau/993b0611fae47031985e
17:30:22 <meejah> vaguely "ux-related", but also some technical stuff
17:30:34 <meejah> mostly, i was wondering if UX-interested people had even seen it ;)
17:31:32 <dcf1> I think I saw it, but I thought it was more of a GetTor proposal than a UX proposal.
17:31:56 <meejah> yeah, now that i've read all of it, there's a lot of technical stuff
17:32:03 <dcf1> But I guess the issue is that a proposal needs a mentor in order to be accepted, and you are asking if any of the UX team is interested in mentoring?
17:32:30 <meejah> anyway, i saw this UX meeting going on, and wanted to make sure ux-people were in-the-loop about it
17:32:35 <dcf1> If someone decides to be a mentor this summer, meejah, what should they do?
17:32:52 <Sebastian> now that people have seen it, can we postpone discussion to post-meeting and end now?
17:32:56 <dcf1> We can make it an item to think about and talk about it in mails.
17:32:57 <meejah> yes, basically. no pressure ;) but i wanted it to be a "not interested" decision, not "didn't even see it" thing
17:33:00 <Sebastian> do we need anything for next week?
17:33:01 <isabela> ok
17:33:14 <meejah> they should contact atagar and get invited on the google GSoC website
17:33:18 <meejah> dcf1: ^
17:33:19 <isabela> answers to scouttle questions
17:33:24 <isabela> i will end the log
17:33:34 <scouttle> i.e., just answers to open questions flagged in the brief draft, and confirmation on whether the prioritization listed there is correct
17:33:37 <meejah> beware the GSoC application deadline is tomorrow (march 25)
17:33:44 <isabela> #endmeeting