18:03:07 <isabela> #startmeeting
18:03:07 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Mar 10 18:03:07 2016 UTC.  The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:03:07 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
18:03:37 <isabela> we said we were going to discuss the design guidelines work, give feedback on the examples ame_e shared
18:03:42 <linda> Do we have an agenda?
18:03:47 <linda> Oh, I guess that's it.
18:03:48 <isabela> is there anything else for the agenda?
18:04:03 <linda> I don't know, but I'd like to know all we should cover up front.
18:05:53 <ame_e> Could someone point me to the notes from the Valencia session. I'm on the Wiki, but maybe not in the right part?
18:06:06 <isabela> ame_e: not all notes are in the wiki yet
18:06:16 <ame_e> Ah, ok.
18:06:46 <dcf1> I posted the notes for the session I took notes for.
18:06:48 <dcf1> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2016WinterDevMeeting/Notes/UXII
18:07:13 <Sebastian> thanks dcf1
18:07:20 <ame_e> Thank you.
18:07:23 <linda> isabela: I sent you my notes, rather than posting them, because I had issues with putting the notes up. I don't know if those made it onto the wiki.
18:08:03 <isabela> I have to prioritize some other work this week, so I havent gone over the notes/wiki stuff yet
18:08:45 <isabela> I hope to do it soon tho
18:08:50 <linda> Okay.
18:08:55 <isabela> I can email the list when I do
18:09:15 <isabela> if we dont have any other agenda items we can just start with the guidelines discussion
18:09:28 <ame_e> I'm an IRC newbie and don't really have a feel for how to be helpful and chime in. The link in the email was a long list of links to various types of guides. It's a lot to click through.
18:10:06 <scouttle> Here's the link Ame was referring to
18:10:07 <sajolida> ame_e: if the link is "tps://medium.com/@iamtec/a-list-of-style-guides-brand-guidelines-and-front-end-frameworks-e5bb62db91e5#.mrj1cx9k8", then i'm not sure how to open it... what's "tps://"?
18:10:08 <scouttle> https://medium.com/@iamtec/a-list-of-style-guides-brand-guidelines-and-front-end-frameworks-e5bb62db91e5#.mrj1cx9k8
18:10:16 <isabela> ame_e: I liked the stuff the mozilla one covers
18:10:27 <sajolida> ah! i was missing "ht" at the beginning :)
18:10:30 <ame_e> Yes. And the Mozilla guidelines are here: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/styleguide/
18:10:31 * mrphs reads dcf1's notes
18:11:05 <isabela> here is the link to mozilla's one: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/styleguide/
18:11:06 <Spencer> Universities also have nice visual identity guidelines; CAL
18:11:47 <scouttle> what did you like about Mozilla's, isabela?
18:12:55 <isabela> scouttle: I liked the different areas it covers, for instance websites and communications (beyond just brand identity)
18:13:04 <scouttle> yes, it is very extensive
18:13:05 <isabela> how it is organized too
18:13:20 <Spencer> isabela: +1
18:13:59 <ame_e> I think it does a good job of speaking to different audiences. Who do we think the audience(s) are for Tor style guidelines?
18:14:25 <Spencer> teachers, learners, and makers
18:14:28 <Spencer> ?
18:14:50 <scouttle> +1 to talking a bit about audiences
18:14:58 <scouttle> spencer can you elaborate a bit?
18:15:05 <scouttle> teachers = people training people on how to use Tor?
18:15:13 <scouttle> makers = developers?
18:15:26 <Spencer> scouttle: Yep.
18:15:27 <isabela> I believe the community in general? it depends on what we will be covering on it, for instance, if we are adding presentations guidelines, I bet a bunch of people from the community will use it for their slides deck
18:15:45 <Lunar> anyone that wants to put an onion logo somewhere
18:16:00 <Spencer> scouttle: I have a habbit of reducing things...
18:16:24 <scouttle> keep talking, all
18:16:31 <scouttle> the more we know about the intended audience
18:16:38 <isabela> scouttle and ame_e would be helpful for you if we document this somewhere? (questions like this, who is the audience)
18:16:41 <scouttle> the better guidance we can give the designer we hire to do the work of crafting the guide
18:16:48 <scouttle> yes, that would be a great idea
18:16:52 <thms> learners can have very different levels of expertise
18:17:02 <linda> What is our objective for making this style guide?
18:17:03 <isabela> if you give us a set of questions we could work on getting answers and documenting them for you
18:17:06 <sajolida> maybe we should first decide what to cover in this style guide
18:17:06 <sajolida> most of the links you provided were about branding, graphical style guides
18:17:06 <sajolida> but are we talking also about human interface guidelines (like the one linked from Apple)? writing style guides?
18:17:25 <scouttle> these are all good questions
18:17:28 <linda> I am honestly a little confused. I thought it would just be for designers/developers so that all the things that they make look the same.
18:17:38 <Spencer> thms: +1
18:17:43 <scouttle> linda that was the initial idea
18:17:55 <sajolida> linda: we need to scope what are "all the things" :)
18:18:05 <Sebastian> I also don't yet see how we're targetting "learners".
18:18:10 <Spencer> linda: Tor is for everyone (:
18:18:11 <linda> sajolida: oh, that makes some sense.
18:18:12 <scouttle> but also I think there's interest from tor staff in having the work extend to guidelines for presentations
18:18:21 <mcgiwer> Sebastian: ticket to trac added. Hopefully it will be helpfull ;)
18:18:25 <Sebastian> mcgiwer: thanks.
18:18:33 <Spencer> Sebastian: The brochure questions on the list, for example
18:18:38 <linda> I'm more in favor of prioritization and getting the important stuff up asap, rather than trying to cover all the things.
18:18:47 <mrphs> ++
18:18:48 <linda> Although I do think the discussion is important..
18:18:52 <scouttle> I think it would be helpful to both identify the long list of different things we want a style guide to eventually cover
18:18:57 <linda> It doesn't exist at all right now.
18:18:59 <scouttle> and then prioritizing the top things we want to see addressed
18:19:04 <Lunar> At least having a reference document with color code would be a major improvements
18:19:05 <linda> Sure.
18:19:08 <ame_e> Re: writing guidelines, I think that might be a second-level priority. For example, Mail Chimp (it's ok to roll your eyes about what they do) does a nice job in making sure many different people can write with a voice that feels consistent. http://styleguide.mailchimp.com/word-list/
18:19:13 <Spencer> So, Who and What
18:19:27 <scouttle> spencer yes
18:19:28 <Spencer> Who is this for and what does it contain
18:19:35 <scouttle> or
18:19:39 <scouttle> more basically
18:19:41 <Spencer> scouttle: Yay!
18:19:46 <scouttle> who is it for and what do they want to accomplish with it
18:19:49 <linda> Oh gees. I didn't think that style guides could refer to how people write.
18:19:57 <scouttle> yup!
18:20:00 <linda> I guess I had a narrow view.
18:20:03 <scouttle> I don't think that's in scope for this first iteration
18:20:11 <scouttle> but it could definitely come to be so over time
18:20:14 <linda> Okay, I was reading through wordchimp.
18:20:14 <Spencer> Chicago, Microsoft, Apple all have great writing style guides
18:20:19 <mrphs> i suggest we dont dive into writing guidelines yet... design guideline is confusing enough for one meeting :)
18:20:22 <sajolida> linda: at Tails we refer to the GNOME Documentation Style Guide for technical writing → https://developer.gnome.org/gdp-style-guide/2.32/gdp-style-guide.html
18:20:33 <scouttle> agree, mrphs
18:20:33 <ame_e> I don't know if it's bad etiquette to keep pasting in links. Am I encouraging people to leave the discussion? Somebody tell me. For example, Simply Secure has basic guidelines with color codes.
18:20:42 <scouttle> https://github.com/simplysecure/resources/blob/master/style-guide-v1.pdf
18:20:48 <sajolida> but i agree that maybe that's not the first thing that we need to have a custom version for Tor
18:20:53 <scouttle> that's our style guide
18:21:04 <Spencer> ame_e: It's okay to fragment the discussion (:
18:21:12 <isabela> ok
18:21:21 <scouttle> which covers colors, fonts, logo placement and useage, and a few other tidbits
18:21:28 <scouttle> so, to answer your earlier question, isabela
18:21:29 <isabela> maybe we should try to document the answer to the 2 basic questions: who and what
18:21:32 <isabela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/A4w1l5pDZZZPU2wKiYWo1JjWoCK3b4APPfAssHctsRR
18:21:33 <Lunar> ame_e: I'd love to have something like that
18:21:36 <isabela> I started this pad
18:21:49 <Lunar> scouttle: very good example
18:21:56 <Sebastian> To get started, I believe we should figure out where we can get by with reusing existing guides, and where we have to create our own
18:22:20 <mrphs> reusing guides?
18:22:23 <Sebastian> writing guidelines to me seem to belong into the former category, visual consistency the latter
18:22:36 <Sebastian> mrphs: like the gnome doc style guide
18:23:03 <Spencer> Sebastian: Yes, build on top of existing success!
18:23:04 <scouttle> I'm typing in the doc isabela shared, can you all see it?
18:23:04 <mrphs> yeah lets not get into writing styles.
18:23:15 <isabela> scouttle: yes!
18:23:18 <linda> scouttle: I can see it.
18:23:23 <scouttle> great
18:23:29 <scouttle> let's focus on the brainstorm sections now
18:23:31 <ame_e> Yes.
18:23:39 <linda> Audience: developers, designers
18:23:41 <scouttle> and then we can pull from brainstorm lists into prioritized lists
18:23:42 <linda> To start.
18:24:21 <Spencer> There is no difference between developers and designers /:  But I see the point.
18:24:59 <linda> I suppose I see the difference as people who generate graphical objects vs people who use those graphical objects and where to place them.
18:25:00 <Sebastian> Spencer: I think I would disagree with that latest statement
18:25:18 <linda> I very much disagree.
18:25:24 <Sebastian> I would think that there are many developers who explicitly are not a target of the UX work.
18:25:35 <Sebastian> but no such designers.
18:25:47 <Spencer> Design means to designate, we all make designations.  I guess I wont sayy that form is the same as function, then (:
18:26:03 <ame_e> This designer finds developers puzzling sometimes.
18:26:20 <mcgiwer> if any of you have heard about the recent scandals of the FBI
18:26:21 <mcgiwer> Tłumacz Google dla Firm:Narzędzia dla tłumaczyTłumacz stronNarzędzie analizy rynków
18:26:21 <mcgiwer> if any of you have heard about the recent scandals of the FBI
18:26:21 <mcgiwer> if any of you have heard about the recent scandals with the FBI? I think that the TOR project can be threatened
18:26:42 <Sebastian> mcgiwer: we're having a meeting here. Please stand aside for now.
18:27:05 <Spencer> mcgiwer seems like a bot
18:27:13 <Spencer> given the timestamps
18:27:20 <linda> Yeah.
18:27:30 <Sebastian> There's no need for speculation, let's focus on the meeting :)
18:27:32 <linda> Is there any other audience we want to reach though?
18:27:48 <Sebastian> To me it seems we're good to start prioritizing
18:27:50 <linda> I am overly utilitarian...
18:27:54 <ame_e> If we're imagining that some design work, where design work means creating graphic objects, would come from people outside of the current Tor community, there are many things they might not understand.
18:28:19 <ame_e> For example, Tor stickers on laptops and t-shirts are a big deal.
18:28:28 <Spencer> Sebastian: The meeting is speculation but I conceed to your point.
18:28:33 <ame_e> Like, not an afterthought. Something to really design for.
18:28:48 <mrphs> ame_e++
18:28:53 <Spencer> Yay stickers!  I bootleg mine (:
18:29:48 <Sebastian> ame_e: Great point. That's more for the "what" then the "who", yes?
18:30:12 <Sebastian> Also, we've been meeting for 30 minutes.
18:30:21 <scouttle> good call
18:30:23 <isabela> :)
18:30:26 <isabela> ok
18:30:32 <isabela> should we try to prioritize things?
18:30:45 <ame_e> As an example of what a designer would want to know: making recommendation for an app icon of x pixels is different than a sticker of y pixels. That's a brainstorm. Ok, to capture in the pad.
18:30:52 <ame_e> Good lord you all type fast and accurately.
18:31:10 <Spencer> Educational material
18:31:33 <scouttle> ok
18:31:38 <scouttle> do we want to try and prioritize now
18:31:48 <scouttle> or stop, since we originally said we were going to try and meet for 30 minutes?
18:31:55 <isabela> that is true
18:32:01 <linda> I prefer to stop.
18:32:10 <scouttle> I think it's not a bad idea
18:32:13 <Spencer> Can't accomplish much in les than an hour.  Four hours is always nice (:
18:32:17 <scouttle> heh
18:32:21 <scouttle> well, we can have homework
18:32:25 <linda> If you guys continue, I'll read the notes afterward.
18:32:28 <Spencer> Yay homework!
18:32:28 <isabela> I am ok with stopping as well
18:32:30 <scouttle> each of us can review sample style guides listed above
18:32:36 <scouttle> and continue contributing to the pad
18:32:39 <scouttle> in the brainstorm section
18:32:50 <isabela> are we meeting again next week?
18:32:55 <scouttle> and also think about how each of us would prioritize the brainstormed stuff into a short list of most urgent needs
18:32:58 <linda> I thought so?
18:33:01 <scouttle> I have it on my calendar
18:33:02 <Spencer> Let's do 15min next time (:
18:34:03 <isabela> scouttle: I like that, we can also use the list in the meantime
18:34:15 <scouttle> if folks would like to email me their personal prioritizations before next week, I will collate
18:34:19 <scouttle> scout@simplysecure.org
18:34:25 <scouttle> (or just send to the list and I'll pull from there)
18:34:30 <linda> Thanks.
18:34:32 <isabela> ok
18:34:42 <scouttle> isabela, can you touch base with tor staffers?
18:34:47 <isabela> yes
18:34:51 <scouttle> to see what their priorities would be
18:34:54 <scouttle> awesome
18:34:59 <isabela> will do
18:35:07 <isabela> alright, anything else? can I stop the bot?
18:35:12 <Sebastian> thanks all!
18:35:14 <scouttle> everyone clear on the "homework"?
18:35:20 <ame_e> Yes.
18:35:28 <isabela> yes
18:35:33 <Spencer> Robots can't be stopped.
18:35:47 <scouttle> (this is where I wish IRC had good emoji support)
18:35:55 <isabela> #endmeeting