15:00:46 <isabela> #startmeeting
15:00:46 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Feb 16 15:00:46 2016 UTC.  The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:46 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:54 <isabela> who is here for UX team meeting?
15:01:07 <sajolida> i don't know what the MeetBot is but this been a public space, anything is probably fine :)
15:01:08 * mcs is here with brade
15:01:13 <scouttle> Isabela I'm here.
15:01:36 <ame_e> Raises hand.
15:01:45 <isabela> sajolida: sorry, is a bot that will log this meeting and publish it publicly. we use it for our meetings
15:02:00 * sajolida reads the Debian wiki :)
15:02:06 <isabela> :)
15:02:56 <isabela> I think Nima got disconnect a few min ago
15:03:27 <isabela> ok, we can start and if folks join later they can introduce themselves
15:04:10 <isabela> 0. Team introductions
15:04:11 <isabela> 1. Ideas for Valencia (bring sessions you want to do or suggest)
15:04:11 <isabela> 2. Wiki
15:04:12 <isabela> 3. Meetings
15:05:01 <isabela> so lets start with introductions :) I am isabela, Tor's project manager and will help this team
15:05:15 <sajolida> "Ideas for Valencia" is both for the Tor meeting and the IFF, right?
15:05:27 <isabela> just tor meeting actually
15:06:05 <sajolida> ok
15:06:12 <ame_e> I'm Ame, sounds like "Amy" designer at Simply Secure. Tor newbie. IRC newbie. Newbie newbie newbie in things that aren't UX.
15:06:12 <sajolida> I'm sajolida, I work for Tails on technical writing, UX, fundraising, and a bit of everything...
15:06:46 <sajolida> ah, and I'll be in Valencia at both meetings
15:06:55 <scouttle> I'm Scout, also at Simply Secure. My background is academic (in usable security) and as a product manager.
15:07:41 <mcs> I am a software engineer who works on Tor Browser and Tor Launcher. And brade, aka Kathy Brade, is here with me (she is the other half of our company, Pearl Crescent).
15:08:00 <mcs> Unfortunately, neither of us will be in Valencia.
15:08:05 <isabela> :(
15:08:14 <ame_e> I'll be at both meetings.
15:08:25 * GeKo is somewhat here
15:08:37 <isabela> oi GeKo want to introduce yourself?
15:08:57 <GeKo> ah, yes, i am Georg and am working on Tor Browser
15:09:53 <isabela> awesome! I think most of us will be in Valencia for both meetings, maybe, if people still has time after this meeting we can chat about what we are doing on IFF or we can do that via the email list as well
15:10:06 <isabela> but for this meeting I would like to focus on the dev meeting
15:10:33 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2016WinterDevMeeting/AgendaIdeas
15:10:57 <isabela> you can see the sessions that are proposed
15:11:03 <isabela> some of them are UX related
15:11:17 <isabela> Tor Launcher UX research: discuss/summarize/evangelize/brainstorm ongoing work at doc/TorLauncherUX2016. Outcomes of live-user testing. Perhaps pilot a redesigned interface with meeting attendees. (lnl, dcf)
15:11:34 <ame_e> I would like to propose a session to talk about a UX style guide for Tor.
15:11:50 <isabela> Getting Tor in censored countries - Current UX and creating censorship resistant mirrors for multiple languages
15:12:03 <isabela> Measuring the user path - we want to find safe ways we can measure the user path to be able to tell if changes applied to the user experience have improved the completion of the path or not. (Isa facilitating)
15:12:18 <GeKo> ame_e: yes, i think that is useful, so +1 from me
15:12:29 <isabela> ame_e: yes! do you want to add to the wiki?
15:12:40 <isabela> these ones I just pasted are the ones related to UX in there
15:12:53 <ame_e> Sure. I still need to register, etc to make edits.
15:13:09 <ame_e> So in the meantime, if you want to real time add it, please do.
15:13:10 <isabela> ok, I am logged in if you want I can just adde it now
15:13:16 <isabela> cool!
15:13:17 <ame_e> yes please, pbrigada
15:13:30 <ame_e> that was supposed to be obrigada. my real time typing is not good.
15:14:12 <isabela> heheh
15:14:55 <isabela> we should also have a meeting as a team. I was thinking of trying to do something that Nima can join as well
15:15:12 <ame_e> Indeed UX team meeting.
15:15:12 <sajolida> I'm also wondering about the status of the ux mailing list, I heard talking about the "UX team" in some places. Is this a formalized group already? (it was not presented as an official team at the State of the Onion), Do we need to work more formally as a team? How so, regular meetings, shared tools, objectives, etc.?
15:15:23 <sajolida> i was just writing this basically
15:16:05 <ame_e> I meant the UX mailing list, of which I've posted to once-ish.
15:16:26 <ame_e> So just being enthusiastic to talk UX, but not proposing a particular structure.
15:16:32 <isabela> sajolida: this team is being build as we talk :) we are not 100% there yet but Tor does want to have an UX team and that is our goal here
15:16:49 <sajolida> great, so we should make this happen in Valencia, then!
15:17:35 <isabela> I see the way of organizing here quite similar to free software projects, if you are working on something relevant to the projects you come to the meetings and participate on things
15:17:48 <isabela> if you see a project you would like to help you offer your help
15:18:27 <ame_e> Should someone send a shout out to the UX mailing list to say we're meeting here now. As a reminder?
15:18:45 <sajolida> isabela: shall we add this as a session? (if you're still editing, or otherwise I can do it)
15:18:51 <sajolida> ame_e: i'll do this!
15:18:55 <isabela> sajolida: please do
15:19:19 <isabela> i mean, add to the wiki. I closed my editor already
15:19:34 <isabela> I also added on our wiki:
15:19:48 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/UxTeam
15:19:58 <isabela> How we operate with dev teams
15:20:20 <isabela> this is more of an orientation to the dev teams folks to understand how we plan on communicating to them if we are working on their product
15:20:43 <isabela> like doing ux research
15:21:33 <isabela> when we meet in valencia we should talk about it. I think is good to let the dev team know of our work so they can follow up from as early as possible
15:21:40 <ame_e> This is an area I particularly welcome guidance from the Tor community, how to work with devs and come up with ways that UX research can serve their needs. Or "your needs" as the case may be,
15:22:01 <ame_e> In case it's not obvious: not a dev
15:22:26 <sajolida> i added «  * UX team meeting: objectives, organization, how do we operate with dev teams, etc. »
15:22:35 <isabela> great!
15:22:36 <sajolida> unless you wanted a different session for this...
15:23:07 <isabela> i dont think is necessary
15:23:58 <isabela> anything else for Valencia?
15:24:10 <isabela> otherwise we can move to Wiki
15:24:23 <scouttle> I wonder whether it might be possible to do some user research while there
15:24:56 <sajolida> scouttle: i would say that the Tor meeting is more internal and not the right place for this, but the IFF definitely would
15:25:29 <sajolida> i have a session planned on the last day, and to be honest it's open for proposals, for example if we want to test or discuss things around the Tor Launcher redesign
15:25:56 <isabela> yep. scouttle I would also ping Linda and David because they will be sharing a new UI they created based on their research for folks to test
15:26:25 <scouttle> Cool. I am always eager for opportunities to get devs listening to users during research.
15:26:26 <ame_e> I can ask them on the UX list. I really enjoyed the work Linda shared at HotPETS in Philly last year.
15:26:44 <ame_e> Can't wait to see/learn about their latest.
15:26:46 <sajolida> it's called « User experience of configuring Tor in Tails (and Tor Browser and Whonix) » but so far i have no clue on how to conduct it (too busy lately)
15:26:47 <isabela> ame_e: yes, is based on that work
15:26:48 <scouttle> (Note: I actually can't make it to Valencia.)
15:27:07 <sajolida> so clearly open for proposals (at least we have an official slot)
15:27:17 <isabela> nice
15:27:35 <isabela> sajolida: I can help
15:27:40 <sajolida> nice :)
15:27:49 <ame_e> I'm happy to brainstorm ideas for that session too. And am on the ground in Valencia
15:27:58 <isabela> sajolida: we could at least map the user path in that scenario so we can identify points where is bad ux and we can be loosing users
15:28:37 <isabela> alright! I see we will have lots to talk and play with in valencia :)
15:29:00 <isabela> ame_e: have you subscribed to tor valencia email list?
15:29:08 <isabela> sajolida: and you?
15:29:08 <sajolida> isabela: for example, or i could prepare some mapping beforehand
15:29:08 <sajolida> anyway, we can prepare this once there as it's on the last day (let it be useful)
15:29:20 <ame_e> Uhm, I don't think so. No. But should do it.
15:29:27 <sajolida> yes, i'm on valencia2016@lists.torproject.org
15:30:01 <isabela> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/valencia2016
15:30:05 <isabela> ame_e: ^^
15:30:10 <ame_e> Clicked!
15:30:40 <sajolida> enjoy the mailman experience :)
15:30:45 <isabela> hehe
15:30:50 <isabela> cool
15:30:53 <isabela> so about our wiki
15:31:03 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/UxTeam
15:31:32 <isabela> I just want to chat about the projects part for now
15:32:17 <ame_e> Am I being slow? Are these 2015 notes? I'm confused by date stamps.
15:32:23 <isabela> as well as history of changes
15:32:39 <isabela> oh
15:32:47 <ame_e> I see. so Jan 2015 had usability testing. It's not a proposal for 2016.
15:32:48 <isabela> so those are projects people are working right now
15:32:59 <isabela> is already on going
15:33:12 <isabela> we should add there the design guidelines
15:33:21 <ame_e> Yes please.
15:33:35 <isabela> I will edit a little so is better organized
15:33:42 <isabela> is a little confusing right nwo
15:33:45 <isabela> *now
15:33:58 <isabela> so, projects should be ongoing work
15:34:43 <isabela> 'History of Changes' is where we will document the final result of the projects
15:34:57 <ame_e> Got it. Thanks for being patient.
15:35:34 <isabela> for this part I was thinking of organizing it in the different stages of the user experience and by product
15:36:06 <ame_e> that would mean for example onboarding?
15:36:10 <isabela> yes
15:36:42 <ame_e> Ok.
15:37:00 <isabela> me and david on last week meeting that happened by mistake
15:37:12 <isabela> started brainstorming modifications that we can remember of
15:37:17 <isabela> actually mostly david :P
15:37:33 <scouttle> modifications that have happened, or that need to happen?
15:37:40 <isabela> have happened
15:37:47 <isabela> is our ux memory
15:37:50 <scouttle> hmm
15:37:53 <isabela> so we know what we changed, why we changed
15:38:02 <scouttle> going back how far?
15:38:19 <isabela> I think we will try to document what we can remember
15:38:38 <scouttle> I think that seems like a useful practice in an open-source environment so people understand why changes were made, and which ones were deeply considered
15:38:49 <isabela> exactly
15:38:58 <mcs> I don’t know how to express this thought well, but one of the ongoing challenges with Tor Browser/Tor Launcher is that we are trying to serve a diverse group of users and I don’t have a good sense of how many people fall into which categories, etc. So any work that helps capture that kind of info (personas?) would be appreciated by brade and me.
15:38:59 <scouttle> at the same time I worry whether such an archive could become unweildy
15:39:37 <isabela> what do you mean by unweildy
15:39:55 <isabela> ah
15:39:56 <isabela> sorry
15:39:57 <scouttle> large, hard to comb through, take a lot of effort to maintain as the number of UX projects gets large
15:39:58 <isabela> looked only
15:39:59 <isabela> online
15:40:37 <sajolida> scouttle: right, it's hard to find the sweet spot between documenting endless discussions and documenting only the outcome of them
15:40:58 <isabela> it will be a very straight to the point documentation
15:41:07 <isabela> problem, hypothesis, solution
15:41:08 <nickm> morning
15:41:11 <isabela> with links to it
15:41:13 <scouttle> Okie dokie, sounds cool!
15:41:15 <mcs> Knowing why we made a change will help inform future changes as well as new team members… but we should not go crazy with it.
15:41:17 <isabela> to whereverf the work was done
15:41:35 <isabela> my hope is that as people are doing their projects they are documenting their work
15:41:58 <isabela> this should be part of the project workflow and not actually this documentation effort
15:42:07 <scouttle> that makes a lot of sense
15:42:18 <isabela> like the work david and linda are doing is documented by them
15:43:18 <isabela> oi sajolida !
15:43:44 <sajolida> yeah, lost my SSH proxy...
15:43:51 <isabela> here:
15:43:54 <isabela> 10:42 < isabela> my hope is that as people are doing their projects they are documenting their work
15:43:57 <isabela> 10:42 < isabela> this should be part of the project workflow and not actually this documentation effort
15:45:01 <sajolida> agreed
15:45:21 <ame_e> mcs, I'm very interested in thinking about personas and their needs. I could have bandwidth for that after style guide stuff.
15:45:46 <ame_e> I'm particularly passionate about newbies to Tor (like me) and how to get new users using it.
15:45:53 <mcs> ame_e: thx That would be awesome!
15:46:44 <sajolida> we have unpublished and very rough personas at Tails and I *think* that some people mentionned personas for Tor a while back on the website list, so maybe we can build on this
15:46:45 <sajolida> i'm personally interested in learning about about how to create and even more about how to use them later on
15:47:11 <isabela> we do have this list of personas
15:47:25 <isabela> from the website team
15:47:32 <isabela> let me get a link
15:47:39 <ame_e> Would it be useful to have a session in Valencia around unifying personas?
15:47:46 <sajolida> ah, nice (i wasn't on the mailing list myself)
15:48:09 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/Website#Personas
15:48:31 <ame_e> Cool. Bookmarked.
15:48:35 <isabela> :)
15:49:30 <isabela> I will invite folks form the website team to chat with us, because we will work together a lot (I predict)
15:49:48 <isabela> Lunar and Sebastian will be at valencia
15:50:27 <isabela> btw we did our first meeting last friday to kick off the redesign of the main site
15:50:36 <isabela> (the website team)
15:50:49 <isabela> and we will send a call for help to the ux list soon :)
15:52:07 <isabela> if nothing else for wiki we can talk about meeting frequency, or we can chat about it in Valencia as well
15:52:48 <sajolida> Valencia is in 10 days and I doubt we'll meet again before that, so for me it can wait.
15:53:21 <isabela> is how I feel as well, and more ppl will be there to give input in the discussion
15:53:29 <ame_e> Ok, well if anybody here or reading the reading meeting minutes later wants to chat, I'm game.
15:53:41 <ame_e> But yes, Valencia is soooooon.
15:54:03 <isabela> cool!
15:54:16 <isabela> so I guess we are done, I will end the bot log now :)
15:54:26 <isabela> #endmeeting