19:02:09 <GeKo> #startmeeting applications-team
19:02:09 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Feb  9 19:02:09 2016 UTC.  The chair is GeKo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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19:02:34 <GeKo> as this is not scrum-style thing. do we have anything we want to put on the agenda
19:02:55 <GeKo> (apart from the usual stuff like UX)
19:02:56 <GeKo> ?
19:03:13 <isabela> I would like to talk about valencia
19:03:16 <sukhe> we would like to give a Tor Messenger update
19:03:31 <isabela> and also that I am back on wearing more of my PM hat so I want to help the team
19:03:59 <GeKo> nice. let's get started with the tor messenger update, sukhe
19:04:52 <sukhe> so boklm arlolra and I are working on a new release for Tor Messenger
19:05:20 <sukhe> one of the things we would really like to get done is the updater
19:05:33 <sukhe> but it's unlikely to be a part of the current release
19:06:12 <sukhe> but one ticket we wanted to discuss particulary is #13861
19:06:13 <isabela> is great that you guys are adding that tho
19:07:10 <GeKo> sukhe: have you looked into the additional effort needed to take tor browser update code and adpt it for tor messenger?
19:07:18 <GeKo> any estimates?
19:07:25 <GeKo> *adapt
19:07:45 <isabela> sukhe: I agree with Lunar's comment there
19:07:52 <sukhe> GeKo: that is one of the things I will be looking at this week. (wanted to get the conversation going)
19:08:00 <mcs> Possibly relevant is #13252 as well since in the long run we will probably move to a “side by side” data storage model for Tor Browser on all platforms and you may want to do the same for Tor Messenger.
19:08:16 <sukhe> isabela: unfortunately right now users have to delete their accounts and start again
19:08:21 <sukhe> we really want to fix that
19:08:28 <isabela> sukhe: yep I did last time
19:08:35 <mcs> (if data is not stored in the directory hierarchy that is automatically updated, a lot of these kind of problem go away; of course new problems arise)
19:09:03 <sukhe> mcs: thanks; will check
19:09:10 <arlolra> to be clear
19:09:34 <mcs> maybe that was not very clear. If the data is separate, you don’t need to worry about losing it during an upgrade
19:09:56 <arlolra> sorry, i'm typing slowly (choosing my words)
19:10:03 <arlolra> i guess i'll just drop a pointer to this
19:10:04 <arlolra> https://motherboard.vice.com/read/desktops-urgently-need-a-more-secure-chat-program-adium-pidgin
19:10:15 <arlolra> grep tor messenger
19:10:26 <arlolra> https://twitter.com/MacLemon/status/695030373399556096
19:10:46 <arlolra> so, this person strongly feels that otr keys should not be stored in a profile nested in the app dir
19:10:49 <mcs> brade and I are actively working on #13252 but do not have a patch ready yet (really, a set of patches is needed). Should be ready this month though.
19:11:00 <arlolra> because appearently people on osx share app and then they'd leak their key
19:11:15 <GeKo> wow
19:11:39 <arlolra> i'm not sure if that's true
19:11:42 <arlolra> if people do that
19:11:52 <arlolra> but we'd like help having an answer here and doing the right thing
19:11:55 <sukhe> yes, while it sounds scary, I am not sure if Mac users actually do that
19:11:56 <sukhe> right
19:12:11 <arlolra> i think ricochet has two modes for this
19:12:12 <mcs> Well, on OS X by default it is hard to see inside the .app bundle so users may just be unaware of this kind of possible issue.
19:12:16 <mcs> (most users)
19:12:19 <arlolra> is special around?
19:12:31 <GeKo> so what is the ETA for a new release?
19:13:02 <sukhe> none yet, but just to be clear, the updater is unlikely to be a part of it. but we want to start working on it ASAP
19:13:29 <GeKo> yes, i guess you want to spend quite some time testing everything ;)
19:14:14 <GeKo> what we could do for the next beta is to sign the windows setup .exe.
19:14:19 <arlolra> mcs: re: #13252, why is that only osx specific? where do bookmarks get saved on linux/win?
19:14:27 <arlolra> (ignoring the signign)
19:15:04 <GeKo> i think we are pretty good wrt our signing setup and i could do that. maybe we can get boklm an account on that machine to so he could do taht as well
19:15:13 <mcs> My limited experience with ricochet is that it uses a side-by-side model where the user’s data is inside a config.ricochet folder and the app is in Ricochet.app within the same parent folder.
19:15:23 <GeKo> s/to/too
19:15:48 <arlolra> GeKo: that'd be great
19:15:50 <sukhe> GeKo: I will open a ticket related to that. thanks.
19:16:21 <mcs> #13252 is Mac-specific for now because it is needed for Mac signing (#6540)
19:17:42 <mcs> For current versions of Tor Browser, everything in the user’s profile is stored in the app area on all 3 of our supported platforms.
19:17:54 <mcs> (portable model)
19:18:45 <arlolra> ok, but it sounds like that will no longer be the case in the future
19:19:00 <GeKo> sukhe: arlolra: what i was wondering: is anybody tracking upstream security fixes wrt tor messenger?
19:19:21 <mcs> arlolra: That’s my hope but the current need is for us to solve this on Mac OS.
19:19:22 <GeKo> given that there is no regular "fix the security bugs" release cycle
19:20:05 <arlolra> mcs: in that case, TM should continue to follow TB and since the biggest complaint is on osx, we all win
19:20:20 <arlolra> GeKo: we plan on following ESR 45
19:20:38 <arlolra> and making the same releases as thunderbird
19:20:52 <arlolra> (or instantbird if it gets its act together)
19:21:01 <GeKo> ha, okay, sounds goods.
19:21:02 <sukhe> for now, we just picked a tag, audited it, and are doing subsequent builds based on that
19:22:33 <arlolra> we recently investigated the impact of a libpng bug that mrphs pointed out
19:23:40 <arlolra> the other thing i wanted to bring up was what mike was talking about at ccc https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/10941#comment:9
19:23:50 <arlolra> but mikeperry doesn't seem to be here
19:24:10 <arlolra> we can yield the floor if there are other things to discuss
19:24:24 <GeKo> unfortunately not
19:24:27 <GeKo> yeah
19:24:46 <GeKo> so, valencia?
19:25:21 <GeKo> isabela: what is the plan for it?
19:28:39 <sukhe> while we are waiting, what tickets/documents should we be looking at to start work on the updater? (we can resume this later if isabela comes)
19:30:28 <mcs> Mozilla’s documentation and the Tor Browser patches
19:30:30 <mcs> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Software_Update
19:31:06 <mcs> Patches for #4234 and #13379
19:31:52 <mcs> You should look at the latest version of those patches from the tor-browser repo
19:32:06 <sukhe> thanks mcs
19:32:37 <mcs> Maybe also #16940
19:34:02 <mcs> There are also various Mozilla patches that have been backported to Tor Browser to support our updater patches. If you look at commits near those that I already mentioned you can find them but ping me or brade if there is confusion.
19:34:40 <GeKo> but there should not be that many left after the esr45 switch IIRC
19:36:24 <isabela> sorry
19:36:35 <isabela> got distracted with an email
19:36:39 <GeKo> welcome back :)
19:36:46 <GeKo> so, valencia?
19:36:51 <mcs> True. And I just found a couple of more tickets whose commits you should look at; these will probably be merged into the #4234 patch in the ESR 45 timeframe: #16906, #16236.
19:37:07 <mcs> (oops. ‘True’ was in response to GeKo earlier)
19:37:12 <isabela> yes! we should do a few things to prepare for it. One is make sure we add discussion topics
19:37:23 <ailanthus> Livestream of reinventing democracy in Europe: http://www.volksbuehne-berlin.de/livestream
19:37:24 <isabela> but I want to help the teams with roadmap discussion
19:37:29 <isabela> and retrospective discussion
19:37:37 <isabela> I also created a wiki for the team:
19:37:49 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/ApplicationsTeam
19:38:01 <sukhe> (mcs: noted)
19:38:22 <GeKo> nice
19:38:31 <isabela> I will be emailing the team stuff to read before valencia
19:38:36 <isabela> should I just send it to dev list?
19:38:55 <GeKo> yeah, sounds like a good idea
19:38:56 <isabela> I will be working on that wiki page, I just did a quick one :)
19:39:12 <sukhe> thanks
19:39:17 <GeKo> this way we might even get more feedback and topics to discuss
19:39:25 <isabela> I want teams to review what they said/planned in Berlin so our memory is fresh for valencia
19:39:51 <isabela> that's pretty much it, I will be hanging out more during these meetings and I am around to help
19:39:57 <isabela> so ping me if you need anything
19:40:29 <isabela> [done]
19:42:46 <GeKo> one thing that just came to mind: how do we plan the interaction with the ux team given that ux is pretty important
19:42:49 <GeKo> isabela: ^
19:44:01 <GeKo> is the idea to see it as a sub team of the applications team
19:44:07 <GeKo> touching all applications
19:44:19 <isabela> GeKo: i dont have any fancy response except that I hope people just show up to each team meeting depending on projects/updates or in other words, depending on the need
19:44:20 <GeKo> and we would then coordinate in the applications team meeting?
19:44:31 <GeKo> ok
19:45:03 <isabela> I will be attending both meetings and will try to make sure people come and give updates etc
19:46:00 <isabela> we will see more resources to help out this coordination like using trac
19:46:19 <GeKo> yeah, what i like to avoid is people from application x are showing up at the ux team discussing things that could be relevant to application y
19:46:35 <GeKo> but the latter does not benefit from it as they missed the meeting
19:46:44 <isabela> yes
19:46:50 <GeKo> they = the devs
19:46:59 <isabela> that is why I also want things documented
19:47:15 <GeKo> ok, sounds good
19:47:46 <sukhe> at what time does the UX team meet?
19:48:09 <isabela> but is a good guideline to have, to ux team to make sure to involve the dev team working on the app they are researching
19:48:32 <isabela> sukhe: we had a meeting this morning, will decide on a frequency for the meeting and publish on ux team wiki page
19:49:41 <sukhe> isabela: ok. at least one of us will attend that in the future
19:50:25 <isabela> cool
19:50:40 <isabela> I will update you when ppl decide on date/time for the meetings
19:51:17 * mcs thought the UX meeting was next week but saw earlier that it happened already :(
19:51:24 <isabela> but you should not feel obligated to :) hopefully we will coordinate in a good way where we are not all in meetings all day
19:51:31 * mcs will be at the next one
19:52:05 <GeKo> isabela: i think the applications team meeting could be a meeting for this
19:52:24 <GeKo> with one from the ux team participating
19:53:05 <GeKo> (and not the other way around given that we have potentially many more applications but still only one ux team)
19:53:14 <isabela> that is what I thought, if someone in the ux team meeting says ' i am looking into this app now' they should come and give an update here so the dev team knows
19:53:24 <sukhe> ok that's better :)
19:53:27 <GeKo> yes
19:53:45 <isabela> cool!
19:54:19 <isabela> and like the metrics team accept requests, ux would too ;)
19:54:56 <isabela> if you have an app and want ppl to look into it, you can present it and see if someone take your task
19:55:00 <isabela> but that is me talking :P
19:55:07 <isabela> lets see how everyone agress on doing this
19:55:35 <isabela> I will keep helping coordinate between teams to achieve that
19:56:18 <GeKo> alright, do we have something else to talk about?
19:59:15 <GeKo> thanks, everybody, for the meeting then
19:59:20 <GeKo> *baf*
19:59:23 <GeKo> #endmeeting