14:00:38 <karsten> #startmeeting Measurement Team
14:00:38 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Jul 22 14:00:38 2015 UTC.  The chair is karsten. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:38 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:58 <karsten> virgil: cool! we'll get to that in a bit.
14:01:03 <karsten> who's here for the meeting?
14:01:06 <Sebastian> <-
14:01:18 <karsten> hi Sebastian
14:01:23 <josswr> Me
14:01:31 <karsten> hello josswr
14:02:16 <karsten> okay, let's start and others will read backlog and join us.
14:02:31 <karsten> this is the third meeting where we're talking about measuring things in the tor network.
14:03:03 <karsten> at the last meetings we did quick introductions of people, so that we all know what others are interested in.
14:03:18 <karsten> want to write a sentence or two about your interests in this area, Sebastian and josswr?
14:04:28 <Sebastian> I'm here as a guest I guess, because I'm assigned to the community team formally. I've been occasionally helping karsten with metrics related stuff, have looked at torbel/dnsel in the past and am one of the directory authority operators who is very interested in some of the services offered by measurement team members
14:04:44 <Sebastian> to debug issues with the network, or even to simply become aware of their existence
14:05:07 <karsten> great!
14:05:10 <josswr> I'm a researcher at the Oxford Internet Institute working on various aspects of internet filtering. My main focus is in analysing global patterns of filtering and, increasingly, attempting to link them to social and political events.
14:05:54 <josswr> We also just uploaded a paper to arXiv about some work we did investigating anomalies in the Tor metrics data, so I'll link it here:
14:05:58 <josswr> http://arxiv.org/abs/1507.05819
14:06:29 <karsten> very cool. thanks for joining us!
14:06:42 <karsten> now, that's very recent. 21 jul 2015!
14:06:57 <josswr> :D
14:06:58 <karsten> will take a look.
14:07:05 <josswr> 'just uploaded' :)
14:07:20 <karsten> great :)
14:07:51 <karsten> so, I forgot to mention the agenda. let me do that now.
14:07:58 <karsten> 1. introductions. we just did that.
14:08:07 <karsten> 2. problems that came up since last week
14:08:18 <virgil> I should introduce as I didn't before.
14:08:25 <karsten> virgil: please do!
14:08:40 * karsten will continue the agenda after that
14:09:18 <virgil> Hi everyone, I'm virgil.  I'm best known for inventing that tor2web with Aaron Swartz.  And nowadays I am working on a social-incentive/gamification for operating a tor relay.  Currently a beta version exists at www.tor-roster.org .
14:09:55 <virgil> if you want to talk about it my colleague (Sean Saito) and I do most of our talking on the tor-relays@ list.
14:10:11 <karsten> does sean know of these irc meetings?
14:10:26 <virgil> he does.  But he is on a bullet train in Japan w/o internet access.
14:10:48 <karsten> okay, hopefully not every wednesday at this time. :)
14:10:53 <karsten> we should invite him here next time.
14:11:00 <virgil> I invited him.
14:11:05 <karsten> great
14:11:28 <karsten> okay, going on with the agenda.
14:11:54 <karsten> 3. products: we did some collaborate pad editing last week where we made a list of measurement-related products and started writing fact sheets for them.
14:12:03 <karsten> let's pick that up briefly today.
14:12:28 <karsten> 4. priorities: assume there were no such tools, what tools would we start writing first?
14:12:34 <karsten> 5. misc/discussion
14:12:39 <karsten> sound okay?
14:12:54 <josswr> Sounds good.
14:12:55 <virgil> solid. press on.
14:13:16 <karsten> great
14:13:35 <karsten> 2. problems: any pressing needs, anything this group of people can help with?
14:13:58 <karsten> (I wonder if we should talk about families in 5.)
14:14:43 <virgil> All I have pressing are some possible bugs in Onionoo.
14:14:56 <karsten> oh, okay. are they in trac yet?
14:15:36 <virgil> are not.  Sean is verifying they are bugs before posting to trac.
14:16:09 <karsten> sounds good. once they are there, I'll look. okay?
14:16:14 <virgil> kk
14:16:27 <karsten> great!
14:16:55 <karsten> anything else this group can help with?
14:17:10 <Sebastian> Not for me atm, I think
14:17:28 <josswr> Or me, for the moment.
14:17:33 <karsten> ok. if something else comes up during this meeting, let's talk about it in 5. misc.
14:17:43 <karsten> 3. products
14:17:48 <karsten> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/6_LHT814bdvcA6dti5YOQJftWR7pCqVk7ROVtxOb44m
14:17:53 <karsten> that's the pad from last week.
14:18:04 <karsten> virgil: can you append your fact sheet(s) to the bottom there?
14:18:26 <karsten> there were sub-pads for a while, but they were mostly unused, so I copied their content over to this one.
14:18:57 <karsten> you'll all notice that there are fewer fact sheets than products. I think we asked for too much last week. we should have asked for scope and dependencies at most.
14:19:17 <karsten> I also totally failed to write the three sheets I promised. :(
14:19:46 <karsten> virgil: ah, I meant append the content to the pad, not a link.
14:19:59 <karsten> virgil: assuming that people don't follow links but maybe scroll down.
14:20:30 <karsten> anyway, we shouldn't write more fact sheets now. we should do that over the next few weeks.
14:20:49 <karsten> for now, note how I tried to group products at the top.
14:21:18 <karsten> this is certainly not the best way to classify things, but I found it better than just a single list.
14:21:39 <karsten> my hope was that it gives you a rough understanding of what's in the space.
14:22:10 <karsten> what I'd like to do today is brainstorm what *should* be in this space.
14:22:46 <karsten> imagine we just had little-t-tor, bridgedb, PTs, tor browser, tor messenger, tor mail.
14:22:50 <Sebastian> both possibly adding things which aren't listed yet and possibly removing things which are listed?
14:23:16 <karsten> Sebastian: right, either way. well, start new lists with things, but those can contain different items.
14:23:33 <karsten> let's create a new list on top of this one.
14:23:58 <virgil> I can tell you a service I've always wanted.  I've wanted a public board where I could leave messages encrypted with the public key of a given hidden service.  I often want to bug-reports for hidden-service operators but no way to reach them.
14:24:29 <karsten> (except that the pad doesn't let me. new list below.)
14:24:48 <karsten> (reconnecting. pads are hard.)
14:24:51 <Sebastian> the pad is "loading" for me for the past 5 minutes
14:24:57 <karsten> uhg
14:25:45 <josswr> I know that metrics are an open problem, but having 'Metrics' as a single bullet point seems to roll lots of issues up into one.
14:27:10 <Sebastian> An error occured while loading the pad
14:27:10 <Sebastian> SyntaxError: Unexpected token ')' in https://4g6uwe4vpw313ol817j8.storm.torproject.org/static/js/require-kernel.js (line 529)
14:27:13 <Sebastian> :(
14:27:26 <Sebastian> this pad is not happy
14:27:31 <karsten> ok. let's move?
14:27:42 <karsten> I'll paste things back afterwards
14:27:59 <karsten> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/RGZZ9PHR8f
14:28:20 <josswr> I noticed from the previous logs the Roya has been talking about a censorship flagging tool. It would be very interesting to link that in to metrics, and think in more detail about what is going to be flagged and what 'flagged' means and includes.
14:28:44 <karsten> josswr: these sound like great ideas. please break up the Metrics item as much as you want.
14:29:05 <Sebastian> that pad is better
14:45:08 <karsten> so, it seems we're only adding new things. how about we add a (+) to each of these items and also start adding (-) to existing things we deem less important?
14:45:50 <Sebastian> in the top or on the bottom
14:46:01 <Sebastian> I thought the - was implicit by not adding it to the top
14:46:16 <karsten> that was the plan, but then we'd lose a lot. :)
14:46:50 <karsten> we can also try to add other stuff from the bottom which we'd want to keep
14:47:18 <karsten> okay, let's do that.
14:50:23 <harmony> (sorry to interrupt, but TWN is up for reading, will send later this evening: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/TorWeeklyNews/2015/29 )
14:53:26 <karsten> I'm afraid we should stop hacking on the pad soon.
14:54:02 <karsten> or rather, we should briefly talk about 5. misc/discussion, end the meeting, and if people want to hack on that pad more, go them.
14:54:09 <josswr> I will have to go in about two minutes, I'm afraid.
14:54:24 <karsten> it was great to have you here! thanks.
14:54:51 <josswr> I'll keep in touch.
14:54:58 <karsten> please do.
14:58:50 <karsten> well, okay, we can also discuss families after the meeting, if you want, virgil.
15:01:12 <karsten> okay, let's end this meeting. next meeting is in a week, same time same channel.
15:01:39 <Sebastian> ok
15:01:44 <karsten> btw, if you have any feedback on how this team thing is going for you, please let me know.
15:01:52 <virgil> I like the etherpads.
15:02:09 <karsten> great. :) me too
15:02:37 <virgil> there's always Apache WAVE https://incubator.apache.org/wave/about.html
15:03:41 * karsten will look into other collaboration tools. :)
15:04:02 <karsten> okay, talk to you in a week. thanks for being here! (virgil, let's talk more about families now if you want.)
15:04:05 <karsten> #endmeeting