16:59:39 <isabela> #startmeeting crowdfunding
16:59:39 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Mar 17 16:59:39 2015 UTC.  The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:59:39 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:59:41 <asn> - discuss how to involve the community?
16:59:43 <asn> oh wow
16:59:44 <isabela> (sorry forgot about this part)
16:59:47 <asn> haha
16:59:49 <asn> it's 5 mins short too
16:59:54 <asn> but w/e
17:00:16 <isabela> true
17:00:20 <asn> tbh one of the things i would like to do
17:00:28 <asn> is to publish a blog post or something
17:00:32 <asn> that asks for feedback from the community
17:00:34 <asn> we have lots of ideas
17:00:46 <nickm> I like the idea of crowdsourcing what we do for crowdfunding
17:00:48 * dgoulet here for the meeting
17:00:50 <asn> but i think some people out there might also have good ideas
17:01:11 <isabela> ok
17:01:17 <asn> and we also have great ideas ourselves
17:01:22 <isabela> i will put your list of projects in a pad for ppl to look at it
17:01:44 <asn> yes
17:01:52 <Yawning> (is the croudfunding stuff just HS related?)
17:02:01 <asn> there is also a blog post that I authored during CCC with the help of helix, nex, etc.
17:02:05 <asn> that is still unpublished
17:02:15 <asn> and nickm helped
17:02:21 <asn> Yawning: i think it was decided that it's goign to be HS related
17:02:25 <isabela> https://pad.riseup.net/p/SXGDrrWpvj8T
17:02:26 <Yawning> ah ok
17:02:28 <asn> i missed that session during the dev meeting
17:02:40 <isabela> asn: do you have the draft somewhere?
17:02:46 <dgoulet> I was in the session, HS is the main direction for this
17:03:02 <asn> isabela: can you read private blog posts?
17:03:09 <isabela> no
17:03:09 <asn> you have a user account on the blog?
17:03:11 * isabela got no power
17:03:13 <Yawning> so this isn't where I try to get funding for my magic anonymity box? :P
17:03:19 <asn> isabela: ok
17:03:59 <Yawning> (is there a trick to getting the riseup pad to load?)
17:04:07 <isabela> oh
17:04:08 <asn> don't use tor...
17:04:12 <Yawning> ...
17:04:13 <asn> that's why i use etherpad.mozilla
17:04:16 <asn> Yawning: j/k
17:04:17 <isabela> ok
17:04:30 <isabela> can use mozilla if that helps
17:04:32 <asn> Yawning: it really hates tor for some raeson
17:04:35 <Yawning> oh there it loaded
17:04:35 <dgoulet> yeah riseup pad also dissapear after 30 days of inactivity
17:04:37 <nickm> I think magic-anonymity-box funding is where it's at for what people want to fund...
17:04:46 <isabela> ok
17:04:48 <nickm> ...but we can't build one and I'm not clear anybody can
17:04:49 <Yawning> I was about to mash newnym repeatedly or something
17:04:49 <asn> yes that's true
17:04:55 <isabela> let me migrate to mozilla before ppl start using it
17:04:57 <isabela> :)
17:05:01 <Yawning> nickm: what about my magic sdcard reader?
17:05:03 <Yawning> :P
17:05:05 <aagbsn> tortab tablet
17:05:12 <aagbsn> etc, all off topic for this meeting?
17:05:15 <ailanthus> I think the dev meeting meeting on this focused on hidden services as a fundable thing, with WildLeaks as a potential use case to feature
17:05:23 <asn> but maybe hidden service funding is also where it's at :)
17:05:27 <asn> no one has tried
17:05:28 <ailanthus> I don't think things are set in stone-?
17:05:42 <asn> ack
17:05:50 <isabela> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/tDeoa7Xo6V
17:05:51 <isabela> boom!
17:05:56 <asn> the wildleaks thing is a bit akward, but it might be fun
17:06:14 <nickm> I'm not so addicted to the wildleaks idea myself.  If we think it would work better than other stuff, sure...
17:06:16 <aagbsn> crowdfunding is for kickstartersque things, or for general public donations? I'd like to see say 50% funding goal
17:06:33 <nickm> Kickstarteresque
17:06:41 <toml> I think that the public really wants to be informed about these tools, so if we can make the case how either one helps people, they are going to buy in
17:07:00 <nickm> More funding from donations is a great target, but not _this_.
17:07:17 <isabela> ok
17:08:07 <asn> i'm trying to pull that blog post from tpo
17:08:13 <isabela> I see 2 things. 1. we need to figure out how to include other projects for crowdfunding 2. we have already started with figuring out how that could work for HS
17:08:41 <isabela> i am ok on discussing both things today - want to check if we should have both in the agenda before adding it :)
17:09:00 <ailanthus> or there need to be more than one crowdfunding project—? Or we could bundle things together into a Help Tor Make More Tor or something
17:09:02 <Yawning> *blinks* offline keys for HSes?
17:09:05 <dgoulet> isabela: not sure I understand "include other projects for crowdfunding"?
17:09:11 <dgoulet> isabela: what do you mean by that
17:09:16 <Yawning> like what in a HSM?
17:09:23 <asn> dgoulet: non-HS stuff I think it means
17:09:37 <asn> for example getting a TWN author. or a press person. or a developer for X.
17:09:41 <asn> roger wanted non-HS stuff too
17:09:46 <isabela> dgoulet: what I understood was that the focus would be to fund HS first / if we want to work on brainstorming campaigns for stuff that are not HS
17:09:54 <dgoulet> ok ack!
17:09:58 * wiretapped-cb wishes https://github.com/leif/thresh were done so we could make every proposal a crowdfunding proposal and let donors decide what to fund
17:10:29 <toml> How would we kick off a campaign? For either. We need to state our case for what we can deliver. 2-3 tracks simultaneous is fine
17:10:48 <asn> isabela: ailanthus: here is the old blog post: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/05Dx5UDfdN
17:10:55 <asn> isabela: ailanthus: it looks slightly better on the blog
17:11:02 <nickm> wiretapped-cb: one challenge is that not every proposal is actually deliverable.  I would be afraid of being asked to develop something not actually possible for the money or with the current level of technology
17:11:32 <ailanthus> There's actually a specific way to do a successful crowdfunding project that has been honed with a lot of testing. Kickstarter has a lot of info about this on its site. It's data-based.
17:11:55 <ailanthus> isabela: Thanks :)
17:12:06 <toml> I dont know — is there a stated reason for aversion to kickstarter?
17:12:18 <wiretapped-cb> nickm: true. i guess by every proposal i mean every proposal which mainly lacks funding :)
17:12:31 <aagbsn> fund people not projects
17:13:07 <isabela> i believe the how does not necessary is related to which solution we will use (indiegogo or kickstarter or our own)
17:13:16 <asn> (toml: i don't mind kickstarter. i'm still curious if there is something that accepts bitcoins.)
17:13:19 <ailanthus> Here's the kickstarter How-To, best practices handbook https://www.kickstarter.com/help/handbook
17:13:25 <toml> That fund people is going to be a big part of new non-profit fund-rasing efforts
17:14:29 <Yawning> (I could start a Paetron, and promise videos of my cat per month and pour the cat videos money into HS research)
17:14:40 <asn> ailanthus: useful!
17:15:54 <asn> so...
17:15:56 <dgoulet> ok sorry, I'm confused here, what are we discussing about right now?
17:15:59 <nickm> patreon-like models might also be cool
17:16:03 <toml> So what would the hidden services deliver to the people?
17:16:08 <asn> maybe we should discuss what we are going to do for the next few weeks?
17:16:11 <nickm> crowdfunding, but also funding in general. :)
17:16:13 <asn> till the next such meeting?
17:16:29 <isabela> asn: yes
17:16:32 <dgoulet> asn: +9k
17:16:48 <toml> We should just draft our pitch.
17:16:49 <Yawning> asn: Someone should research which croud funding platforms/models to persue
17:16:50 <Yawning> and why
17:17:03 <Yawning> cuz they have different requirements no?
17:17:07 <Yawning> and what toml said
17:17:17 <asn> yes i agree
17:17:22 <asn> write a post and publish it somewhere
17:17:26 <dgoulet> they do, kickstarter, indiegogo, etc.. have different ways of doing crowndfunding
17:17:26 <asn> and learn info about the logistics of crowdfunding
17:17:36 <asn> i see
17:17:40 <ailanthus> yawning: I'd be happy to research the different models; I've done so before.
17:17:46 <isabela> pitch != blog post asking feedback from community
17:17:46 <asn> ailanthus: ok that's great
17:17:50 <asn> you've done crowdfunding before?!
17:17:59 <Yawning> <- doesn't know any of this stuff I just write code
17:18:08 <toml> you know, Yawning
17:18:13 <isabela> so we should separate those tasks (pitch and blog post)
17:18:19 <asn> what is the pitch?
17:18:28 <asn> to whom i mean?
17:18:31 <toml> The first pade of any campaign
17:18:39 <asn> true
17:18:39 <toml> first pitch
17:19:06 <toml> To people who might be inclined to support miraculous new code : )
17:19:15 <Yawning> hah
17:19:27 <toml> That shoes the user that they play a part in brave new tech
17:19:28 <ailanthus> asn: Have not lead one but done research into them.
17:19:31 <dgoulet> so the blog post would be to "crowdsource" our crowdfunding requirements kind a thing?
17:19:51 <asn> and maybe also to ask for feeedback on crowdfunding platforms, strech goals, etc.
17:20:11 <isabela> dgoulet: yes, and I want to know if people agree on that idea and who will take the task
17:20:12 <dgoulet> ok so a call for help on this effort basically
17:20:12 <toml> I would announce that we are looking for ideas to crowdsource.
17:20:35 <aagbsn> and feedback on the following ideas <list of ideas>?
17:20:35 <nickm> probably we should suggest a few and discuss pros and cons
17:20:39 <ailanthus> Haven't we already solicited ideas from the community on crowdfunding?
17:20:41 <isabela> that said. i think if we go that way, then the blog post etc should be a task done before the pitch draft
17:20:43 <nickm> to help set people's ideas.
17:20:51 <toml> I would then be happy to outline the basic components of the proposal
17:20:52 <asn> ailanthus: nope
17:21:03 <Yawning> nickm: also if there's stuff that's like "Hell Fuck No"
17:21:08 <asn> isabela: sure
17:21:10 <asn> isabela: i agree fwiw
17:21:14 <Yawning> we should mention those is a nice way
17:21:17 <asn> i think we could also make a wiki page or something
17:21:26 <aagbsn> maybe ask for votes on which ideas are best, to make an ordered (tiered, last popular idea gets paid for last) list?
17:21:31 <toml> The columns of a wiki would clarify the components
17:21:32 <Yawning> dunno if there's stuff like that though
17:22:09 <asn> i don't think pure voting is the way to go here
17:22:10 <aagbsn> vote = coherant blog comment
17:22:29 <toml> I think any solid candidates will become clear quite quickly
17:22:36 <asn> yes
17:22:37 <ailanthus> Reddit is another place to go where people could weigh in
17:22:38 <Yawning> toml: agreed
17:22:46 <asn> and i think we know of a few things that _must_ be done better than the community
17:22:48 <ailanthus> toml yes
17:22:49 <asn> ailanthus: yes
17:22:52 <asn> ailanthus: very true
17:23:26 <isabela> k
17:23:28 <toml> But we can still lay out the basic motion and ask others to make it reality
17:23:46 <Yawning> some of the things that do have community appeal probably have the hidden potential to spiral out of control into a rats nest of compexity and "oh god, so many research questions to solve"
17:23:53 <Yawning> >.>
17:23:55 <isabela> what about use the draft asn posted to be the place where to work on this proposal?
17:24:03 <isabela> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/05Dx5UDfdN
17:24:25 <aagbsn> is there a shiny piece of new tech that contributors get at the end of the project? or more general feel good ?
17:24:25 <asn> my plan was also to link to a wiki page with a list of items we have thought
17:24:27 <isabela> and toml you would be taking the writing task? is that right?
17:24:46 <asn> because the blog post is very verbal
17:24:55 <isabela> asn: do you want to create that page?
17:24:56 <asn> and maybe some peple would enjoy more technical ideas
17:24:57 <asn> isabela: yes
17:25:11 <Yawning> aagbsn: depends.  "onion addresses are really long now, and the tor people say it's better"
17:25:13 <Yawning> ?
17:25:33 <aagbsn> hm, for projects like providerless chat
17:26:14 <aagbsn> unlikely tor hs could scale to say 100m users as is
17:26:17 <asn> isabela: there is also this one https://etherpad.mozilla.org/2g2qovzE5Z
17:26:18 <toml> "providerless chat" has legs. The people will love it
17:26:20 <asn> isabela: which has the list of projects
17:26:26 <isabela> ok, we need to have a method on collecting this feedback from the community
17:26:27 <asn> isabela: i transcribed all of that from the tor-itnernal thread some months ago
17:26:34 <aagbsn> popular messaging platforms take off to 100+m users in ~18 months
17:26:44 <isabela> asn: do you mind psting that on the wiki page? and we can ignore that pad :)
17:26:48 <asn> isabela: yes for sure
17:27:08 <dgoulet> asn: hrm didn't you made a wiki page already with all that stuff, I recall one
17:27:14 <asn> dgoulet: hah
17:27:23 <asn> dgoulet: i will look into it
17:27:27 <nickm> one thing to think about as we balance ideas:
17:27:30 <isabela> 'search before create'
17:27:35 <isabela> is a good rule to have :)
17:27:38 <dgoulet> asn: ah nvm, SponsorR task list: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/sponsors/SponsorRtasklist
17:27:46 <asn> yeah i'm a listy person
17:27:52 <asn> 4
17:28:33 * dgoulet relocates
17:28:34 <asn> isabela: blog comments is a discussion hub. tor-talk might be another. a less nerdy one might be  reddit.
17:28:35 <nickm> New development is more exciting than improvements to existing development.  It'll be easier to find funding for a providerless chat tool than it would be for prop224, but without prop224 and related improvements, hidden services will still need work
17:28:45 <asn> exactly
17:28:54 <asn> i posted a prioritization list yesterday on tor-internal
17:28:57 <asn> that tried to balance this
17:29:01 <asn> but it's a hard problem
17:29:02 <nickm> Further, software projects that fund existing capacity are safer than ones that require new capacity.
17:29:06 <Yawning> nickm: yeah
17:29:15 <nickm> Though new capacity is more exiting
17:29:16 <ailanthus> asn: I think cross indexing feedback from those different communities will help us figure out what to fund
17:29:17 <toml> crowdfunding should be splashy, imo.
17:29:31 <asn> yes splashy
17:29:49 <asn> dive in the exciting ocean of hidden services
17:29:50 <special> I think the important part is figuring out how to get people who don't already want to donate to tor as contributors. They're probably less interested in deep technical stuff, and more interested in things they can use.
17:29:54 <ailanthus> I think we should pick more than one thing to fund—we need several things. And then do successive crowdfunding projects. So: Pick 3, maybe.
17:29:55 <toml> the platform and the long view should be taken on byTor as non-profit
17:29:57 <isabela> nickm: asn list is here -> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/tDeoa7Xo6V
17:30:09 <aagbsn> for sure, trick is sell the exciting thing and use it to pay for the hard work that needs doing - thus estimating costs accurately?
17:30:42 <toml> So crucial to scope it out. I know someone who knows about that, Isa…
17:31:10 <isabela> yes
17:31:12 <ailanthus> asn: Thanks :)
17:31:20 <asn> nickm: "Onion Services: Next Generation Hidden Services"
17:31:29 <nickm> afk 5 minues
17:31:44 <asn> also i talked with karen
17:31:48 <asn> and he told me that apparently the way to do this
17:31:59 <asn> is to aim for a small amount of money in the beginning
17:32:01 <asn> ask for like 50k to 100k
17:32:06 <asn> and then hope to hit the stretch goals
17:32:10 <ailanthus> We are tentatively thinking of doing a public competition to choose another name for the Dark Web.
17:32:38 <special> I haven't seen any discussion on tor browser related improvements as a crowdfunding goal
17:32:49 <asn> special: yes it's true
17:33:03 <asn> i  think i didn't receive any relevant feedback, and i'm quite narrow minded :(
17:33:15 <special> "bring tor browser to android" might be something that gets people excited
17:33:19 <asn> there are definitely many TBB ideas that could be appropriate
17:33:30 <asn> there is a entry about this
17:33:34 <asn> .. 5.4 Tor on iOS or android
17:33:37 <asn> but yeah...
17:33:40 <aagbsn> special: absolutely
17:33:42 <asn> that would be a good one
17:34:19 <toml> the fundraising around tor browser should start by making sure our donate buttons are well in place,
17:34:22 <isabela> you know when you crowdfund a movie and you get a card for $10, a poster for $15, ticket for premiere for $50, front row ticket for $100, hang out with director for $1k
17:34:34 <asn> yeah
17:34:37 <asn> these are the rewards!
17:34:40 <asn> we had some ideas
17:34:43 <asn> some normal ones
17:34:46 <asn> a few fun ones
17:34:51 <asn> we need to think more
17:34:53 <asn> coim
17:35:01 <toml> they may be the first to download
17:35:01 <asn> might be crowdsourceable too
17:35:09 <asn> D:
17:35:20 <isabela> maybe break down the goal into tasks and say 'task = 1day -> donation = $50' for a baseline on the rewards for the work needed to be done
17:35:50 <Yawning> asn: I'll rework horse25519 to run on CUDA and give silkroadbuyurdrugshere<blahblahblah>.onion and facebooktalktourfriendshere<blahblahblah>.onion to the highest backer?
17:35:59 <asn> isabela: plausible
17:36:03 <ailanthus> we have some good ideas for fun ones—temporary tattoos, etc.
17:36:09 <isabela> but description should be somehow technical but also accessible to users of HS not administrators you see?
17:36:10 <asn> isabela: of course breaking the goals into 1day tasks is a pretty hard problem itself :)
17:36:43 <asn> isabela: i think we could have the front page be accessible to people of all ages and backgrounds
17:36:43 <toml> I do love the idea of setting up relays and having people pay to run them as a tax deductible donation. A bit like heifer international : )
17:36:52 <asn> but we should have a link with technical stuff for the fanatics
17:36:58 <ailanthus> Isabela: I can help tweak the text so that it's accessible to both audiences.
17:37:05 <Yawning> toml: torservers does that
17:37:06 <ailanthus> toml: So cool
17:37:16 * nickm is losing the thread here a bit.  Is there anything I can do to help at this point?
17:37:29 <toml> Thanks, Nick! Take it easy!
17:37:37 <isabela> asn: yes - it need to be appealing for the tech fanatics and the journalist that knows it exist because their agency has one for sources
17:37:47 <aagbsn> ah, tshirts
17:37:53 <isabela> ailanthus: cool
17:38:00 <aagbsn> and stickers
17:38:25 <asn> $10k reward is 3 uninterrupted minutes with roger
17:38:33 <isabela> hahahaha
17:38:42 <toml> updates on how the project is pushing back against the bad guys
17:38:46 <asn> yes
17:38:56 <asn> toml: it would be great if we could fund TWN
17:38:57 <aagbsn> there's a few groups that take money and run relays, and oniontip which hands out money via btc
17:38:59 <asn> the Tor Weekly News
17:39:06 <isabela> nickm: probably help with the goals but you can review it at the wiki later
17:39:32 <asn> ok. i can create the wiki page today or tomorrow.
17:39:39 <isabela> thank you
17:39:41 <asn> it will list the projects and anything else useful i can think of
17:39:44 <toml> I would be happy to help
17:39:54 <asn> and i can send it to tor-infernal or something
17:40:04 <isabela> hehe ok
17:40:15 <Yawning> o.O
17:40:25 <isabela> toml: can you work with ailanthus and others on the blog post?
17:40:29 <asn> and then the next step is the blog post
17:40:37 <toml> Love to (already started)
17:40:41 <isabela> I think we want that and the goals list by next time we meet rigth?
17:40:41 <asn> great
17:40:45 <isabela> anything else?
17:40:50 <asn> i would even publish blog post _sooon_
17:40:59 <asn> liek before we next meet
17:41:14 <asn> i mean we are just asking for feedback
17:41:16 <asn> it's not The Pitch
17:41:20 <isabela> yes, I mean, those things listed as done (published, finalized)
17:41:21 <toml> sure
17:41:27 <asn> isabela: ack
17:41:36 <isabela> the goals list can be coordinated via wiki/emails and so the blog
17:41:39 <ailanthus> asn: can we link to other communities? Tor blog post readers do not necessarily = funders.
17:41:49 <isabela> then we meet to discuss what next (probably what to do with the comments etc)
17:41:56 <asn> ailanthus: how do you mean that?
17:41:58 <asn> start a reddit thread?
17:42:02 <asn> that's fine by me
17:42:08 <asn> i think i'm fine with whatever you suggest here tbh
17:42:12 <ailanthus> asn: Share blog post with other communities—reddit, etc. :)
17:42:20 <isabela> yes!
17:42:34 <ailanthus> great—is there a way to track where feedback comes from?
17:42:47 <isabela> ailanthus: not yet :)
17:42:50 <Yawning> a spreadsheet?
17:42:54 <asn> what do you mean?
17:43:02 <isabela> spreadsheet sounds good
17:43:14 <Yawning> a csv file in a git repo somewhere?
17:43:34 <asn> yeah if we get overflowed with that much feedback, we could use a spreadsheet or a pad or something
17:43:57 <isabela> ok
17:44:06 <isabela> not sure if everyone knows how to use git tho
17:44:19 <ailanthus> isabela: I don't know how to use git; open to learning.
17:44:39 <asn> occamls razor: i think using a pad is acceptable for now?
17:45:01 <asn> if we get such a firehose, i will migrate it to more sophisticated  methods
17:45:06 <isabela> pads needs tables :)
17:45:15 <isabela> ok
17:45:40 <isabela> i think we will survive with pad for now, lets create one when the blog post is out
17:45:44 <asn> yeah
17:46:18 <isabela> ok folks! looks like we have a plan
17:46:25 <isabela> meet in 1 week? 2 weeks?
17:46:28 <isabela> how do you feel?
17:46:28 <asn> yeah seems like a reasonable start
17:46:55 <asn> meet in 2 weeks? except if the blog post response is _good_?
17:47:02 <asn> and we get lots of good ideas and insights from community.
17:47:06 <asn> but also puffin was not here.
17:47:06 <toml> Sounds good
17:47:35 <asn> if the community response is enthusiastic, we can meet in a week to have shorter response times.
17:47:46 <isabela> +1
17:48:13 <asn> ok great.
17:48:13 <ailanthus> earlier is better while we're getting this off the ground, imo
17:48:30 <isabela> lets coordinate things via email - please send wiki link when page is up.. blog folks do your thing :) and let us know when is published
17:48:41 <asn> i think in the next meeting we should also have a better idea of the projects we could do
17:48:42 <isabela> can we consider this meeting over?
17:48:51 <isabela> sorry asn
17:48:56 <isabela> didn't mean to cut you off
17:48:59 <asn> both because we will receive feedback from the community
17:49:04 <asn> and also people here should send their ideas
17:49:20 <asn> to listify them. because listifying things is alwayus productive, right?
17:49:23 <asn> anyway. that's that.
17:49:34 <isabela> +1k for listifying
17:50:10 <asn> so short term:
17:50:13 <asn> - make wiki page
17:50:20 <asn> - write blog post (and include wiki page link)
17:50:24 <asn> - publish blog post
17:50:34 <asn> - <feedback>
17:50:35 <asn> - remeet
17:50:39 <asn> seems ok
17:50:42 <asn> see you later!
17:50:42 <isabela> yes
17:50:45 <isabela> ciao
17:50:50 <isabela> #endmeeting