13:14:52 <Phoul> #startmeeting
13:14:52 <MeetBot> Meeting started Fri Dec 19 13:14:52 2014 UTC.  The chair is Phoul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:14:52 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:15:53 <Phoul> OK, so since twz already mentioned it, the short user manual is something we should discuss. Its current state is not usable, however, Lunar had done a decent amount of work creating a version in Mallard. Are any of you already comfortable working with Mallard?
13:16:36 <sherief> I can learn it as I go.
13:17:44 <mttp> We need to thinkabout what the final output will be
13:18:13 <sherief> Phoul: I thought that saint said in an email he's taking this task
13:18:22 * twz reading what is mallard
13:18:32 <mttp> With Mallard, it can out put either html, latex, or pdf
13:18:58 <sherief> problem is he isn't here and we're not sure if he made any progress
13:18:58 <Phoul> sherief: harmony and saint both indicated interest, was hoping harmony would be here. Anything that gets done on the short user manual should also include them.
13:19:12 <saint> sherief Phoul it seems to be divided up between me+phoul+harmony
13:19:16 <mttp> if we want the short user manual in one of those formats, we can stick with mallard
13:19:41 <saint> I was going to send out an email today -- it really feels like this task is over-engineered
13:19:45 <Phoul> mttp: for the time being, its likely target is html. There may be a chance for further integration at some point, but it would be good to get something that can be given to users first.
13:19:48 <mttp> sherief: I think that person just expressed interest
13:20:05 <mttp> hi saint
13:20:08 <saint> hi mttp
13:20:27 <sherief> mttp/saint: mallard seems like the best option since it can be built with tbb
13:20:43 <sherief> that was the intention from the beginning
13:20:46 <saint> sherief: okay
13:21:09 <saint> is there a decent guide to mallard that you'd recommend?
13:21:28 <sherief> one moment.
13:21:36 <twz> Can we use GitHub? It's not blocked in China
13:22:36 <mttp> Lunar spearheaded the decision to work using Mallard-- since he's no longer working on the manual, I think it should be ok to think about non-mallard options
13:22:37 <Phoul> twz: github is fine for personal repos, we will also use the repo on torproject git.
13:23:03 <mttp> Not saying we should use a non-Mallard option, but I think it should be ok toreexplore
13:23:19 <mttp> *to reexplore
13:23:26 <saint> if we want it to be packed with tbb, there's also the option of including it as an extension or as a link from the initial status
13:23:53 <Phoul> mttp: Since part of it has already been done in mallard, and it fits our target, I'm not sure changing at this point actually gets us much. I don't want to get too far into TSUM planning, as language discussion // integration discussions would likely take the rest of the meeting.
13:24:08 <Phoul> That might be better to do on the ML, with all interested parties.
13:25:17 <sherief> saint: an extension seems like over engineering and a link might be blocked. an offline version would be a good option
13:25:28 <mttp> Sure
13:25:28 <sherief> here's the guide: https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show/Apps/Yelp/Mallard?action=show&redirect=Yelp%2FMallard
13:25:38 <saint> sherief: well if you're using tor to fetch it, why assume blockage?
13:25:39 <sherief> http://projectmallard.org/about/learn/index
13:25:53 <sherief> because sometimes tbb won't open at all
13:26:36 <sherief> saint: we can include both a link and an offline version
13:26:42 <saint> okay
13:26:44 <sherief> redundancy is good I guess
13:27:02 <saint> just keep in mind that circuit failure on start means that the browser won't open at all
13:27:09 <saint> redundancy++ =)
13:27:25 <Phoul> saint: will you still send your user manual email later today?
13:27:43 <mttp> I would encourage whoever is working on the manual to be aware of some of the concerns raised with using HTML for the manual in this thread https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tbb-dev/2014-May/000051.html
13:28:04 <qwerty1> an extension included with tor browser can include offline html documents such as a manual
13:28:08 <qwerty1> chrome:// urls
13:28:37 <saint> Phoul: sure, though it seems like we've worked out some of the issues
13:29:02 <Phoul> some of them, although we really do need to move on (for this specific meeting).
13:29:03 <saint> qwerty1: right, and this type of extensions is (comparatively) easy to create and very easy to update (just rewrite in html)
13:29:26 <Phoul> #action saint will send an email regarding the short user manual, for further discussion / planning
13:29:37 <saint> sounds good =)
13:29:45 * saint didn't even realize you guys were having a meeting
13:29:46 <sherief> qwerty1: tbb doesn't even open if tor doesn't bootstrap, telling users to navigate through tb's dir just to open the browser to reach the extension sounds painful
13:30:46 <Phoul> ok, next topic: The support team calendar isnt really used anymore, and a few people have contacted me privately to mention they don't find it overly helpful. Is there some way it could be more helpful, or would people prefer to not use a calendar again for a bit?
13:31:34 <sherief> saint: http://en.flossmanuals.net/introduction-to-mallard/about-this-book/ this the book I meant to refer you to
13:31:46 <saint> sherief: ah, many thanks
13:33:31 <mttp> My preference is not to use it. There are some days when I can only answer 3 or 4 tickets. It makes me not want to put my name down for that day, because I know my capacity is limited that day even I am doing some work
13:34:02 <mttp> *even though
13:34:54 <mttp> Sometimes I end up being surprisingly productive those days. It's hard to plan
13:35:46 <Phoul> mttp: based on its current usage, I would imagine a number of people agree with you. I also find it difficult to judge availability at times.
13:35:48 <sherief> We can either keep it or say when will we be absent
13:38:16 <Phoul> sherief: yup, if we stop using the calendar, indicating availability through the ML will be more important. For the most part, people seem to do that fairly well though.
13:39:35 <Phoul> Since its been couple weeks since the current calendar has been used, I will shut the mail script off for a couple weeks and see if our previous method (contacting ML when absent) works better for people. Is this acceptable to everyone who is here?
13:40:40 <sherief> fine by me
13:42:25 <Phoul> twz: sound good?
13:42:42 <twz> I don't really use it, so no comments
13:42:55 <Phoul> #action Phoul will disable calendar mail script for a couple weeks. The support team will mail the list when absent. Will revisit if this plan does not work out.
13:43:00 <harmony> hi
13:43:04 <Phoul> hi harmony
13:43:04 <harmony> apologies for being so late
13:44:15 <Phoul> No problem, there will also be minutes of some type. We've discussed the short user manual ( saint will be sending an email with further details, and we will discuss there ), as well as the support calendar, which you likely saw the resolution for.
13:44:31 <harmony> both sound good to me
13:47:32 <Phoul> Great! So the next thing is: Would people find it helpful for https://help.torproject.org/support/ to be maintained again? We haven't used it in some time, but it was helpful at various periods.
13:47:40 * twz on my tablet, sorry for brevity.
13:48:41 <mttp> I wish it were easier to edit
13:48:48 <sherief> Phoul: is https://help.torproject.org/support/ really needed when stats is ready?
13:49:08 <Phoul> sherief: that is a good point, likely not.
13:50:33 <Phoul> Hmm, ok. Stats will also cover mttp's concern with editing, as its a lot more friendly than using git. Sounds like the best way forward is to finish / deploy stats, rather than worrying about maintaining help.tpo.
13:51:00 <sherief> I can also make a public page of it
13:51:20 <sherief> for people to view, i mean.
13:51:38 <Phoul> Great! That would pretty much cover its current functionality + the ease of use for people to interact with. :)
13:52:52 <Phoul> #action Instead of updating help.torproject.org, the stats system of pups will be used for tracking of help-desk issues.
13:54:56 <Phoul> Alright, the last thing I wanted to do today was open it up to everyone here. Is there anything specific that people wanted to discuss today?
13:56:41 <sherief> Phoul: Is this meeting going to be on a weekly/bi weekly or monthly basis?
13:57:36 <Phoul> I'm thinking every 2 weeks might be best, however we can always adjust if we find thats too often // not often enough.
13:58:46 <sherief> sounds great
14:00:39 <Phoul> Great! If people think of things in the meantime, please send them to the list or to me. Can either add them to the agenda for the next meeting, or we can discuss on list.
14:01:59 <Phoul> If no one else has anything, thats the end of the meeting.
14:02:20 <twz> About volunteer.
14:02:42 <twz> I mentioned it on maillist.
14:03:16 <sherief> twz: help desk volunteers or coding volunteers?
14:03:31 <Phoul> twz: Correct. I still haven't had a chance to go through and come up with a proposed process for handling the training / recruiting of volunteers for the help-desk. There are a lot of things to consider with that one... it might be best to save for the next meeting, that way there can be a proposal that people can actually comment on.
14:03:43 * Phoul is assuming this is help-desk volunteers, if coding, ignore previous statement.
14:03:52 <twz> sherief: help desk.
14:04:12 <sherief> twz: we can't really accept people who aren't known community members
14:04:26 <sherief> but that's just my opinion
14:05:39 <Phoul> sherief: that is correct, giving strangers access to the help-desk would be bad.
14:05:50 <twz> I understand your concerns.
14:06:38 <sherief> I think Runa once answered this on tor.stackexchange.com
14:06:46 <harmony> will it be possible to actively recruit people into the community as help-desk people
14:06:47 <sherief> her answer was reasonable
14:07:09 <harmony> the community is mostly 'whoever turns up'
14:07:20 <harmony> people often turn up to do code, less so for other things
14:07:32 <harmony> i agree with all the above though
14:07:43 <sherief> harmony/phoul/twz: http://tor.stackexchange.com/a/429
14:07:57 <Phoul> harmony: That is a possibility, provided we did so carefully. These are the sort of things I'd like to (try) and cover in the proposal, and then have people comment on.
14:08:15 <harmony> Phoul: of course, i'll wait for that
14:08:44 <Phoul> I will do my best to have it ready for the next time we meet.
14:09:43 <twz> I think it's possible if we have a plan.
14:09:45 <Phoul> sherief: thanks :)
14:11:20 <twz> let's say, I know someone and I trust them.
14:14:17 <twz> How can I ask them to help when I am not available?
14:14:21 <Phoul> Its the plan bit that needs more working out. Glad to hear that you know people interested in working on the help-desk, I would encourage you (for the time being) to have them join the various public lists and hang around IRC to get a feel for things.
14:14:50 <sherief> twz: it's not our decision. we need to present the process of accepting people to arma/phobos for any of them to approve then accept people
14:15:54 <Phoul> Its important that this be well-defined, and that people (including those outside the help-desk) have had a chance to comment. There are a lot of things that can possibly go side-ways if this is not done right.
14:16:13 * sherief agrees
14:16:19 <twz> Personally, I hate to see nobody answers Chinese tickets.
14:16:53 <Yawning> (random question, I assume help desk doesn't get japanese tickets)
14:17:01 <Phoul> twz: in this case, as bad as it is (and I understand, its not a great situation), it would be better for there to be periods of people not answering than rapidly adding people to the help-desk that we have not vetted.
14:17:15 <Yawning> (If I'm wrong, feel free to poke me)
14:17:29 <Phoul> Yawning: If there are any, its very rare.
14:17:35 <twz> we have Japanese tickets
14:17:42 <twz> and Korean
14:17:43 <Yawning> oh
14:17:44 <Phoul> *is corrected*
14:18:11 <Yawning> If you want someone to do the japanese stuff, I can on a "is not busy" basis
14:18:26 <Yawning> (I assume I'll pass the vetting :P )
14:19:09 <Yawning> (I assume the help desk doesn't get classical Sanskrit tickets....)
14:19:14 <twz> Yawning: Great. Do you have a RT account?
14:19:31 <Yawning> no
14:19:50 <sherief> Yawning: you can help building the Japanese TB
14:19:55 <Phoul> OK, it looks like we are finished with the meeting and have moved on. Going to call it to a close for today, thanks all for attending. I will get the minutes out to the list today.
14:20:08 <Yawning> sherief: indeed
14:20:12 <sherief> Yawning: moving to tor-dev
14:20:12 <Phoul> #endmeeting