17:59:09 <sysrqb> #startmeeting Tor Browser Team Meeting 30 March 2020
17:59:09 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Mar 30 17:59:09 2020 UTC.  The chair is sysrqb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:59:09 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:59:13 <sysrqb> Hello everyone
17:59:23 <brade> hi
17:59:29 <sysrqb> welcome to the last team meeting of March
17:59:39 <pili> o/
17:59:47 <pospeselr> o/
17:59:59 <boklm> hi
18:00:11 <acat> o/
18:00:17 <antonela> hello!
18:01:37 <sysrqb> https://pad.riseup.net/p/TorBrowserTeamMeetingNotes-keep
18:01:39 <sysrqb> is the pad
18:01:52 <sisbell> hi
18:04:44 * mcs is reading the pad
18:07:17 <sysrqb> alrighty.
18:07:42 <sysrqb> #32418
18:08:08 <sysrqb> mcs: do macOS users see a similar problem?
18:08:34 <sysrqb> or is firefox smarter about handling the error when it is located in /Applications?
18:08:44 <sysrqb> brade: ^
18:08:51 <brade> I don't think it's specific to platform
18:09:33 <sysrqb> okay
18:10:05 <sysrqb> i heard a rumor the other day that Tor Browser updates on macOS are kinda sad for non-admin users, too
18:10:11 <boklm> lots of users on the blog are asking for a way to disable updates, so I think having some way to do it is useful
18:10:17 <sysrqb> but, regarding https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/32418#comment:9
18:10:48 <sysrqb> i see the benefit of both approaches
18:11:43 <sysrqb> i did not look at the code
18:12:10 <sysrqb> but based on the recommendation, i'm guessing the code changes needed for #2 are relatively small?
18:12:40 <sysrqb> it sounds more complex, but that's only based on the descriptions
18:13:13 <mcs> Either patch should be fairly small.
18:13:34 <mcs> Gving Tor Browser users access to the policy mechanism in a safe way seems like a win (approach #2)
18:13:51 <sysrqb> Yes
18:14:15 <sysrqb> is Tails' method the only way we know of disabling it on Linux?
18:15:53 <boklm> I think yes (not only on Linux)
18:16:07 <brade> Tails' methods don't work for end users
18:16:25 <sysrqb> Right, sorry, I meant if we go with option #2
18:17:02 <sysrqb> is there a sane way for disabling updates on Linux Tor Browser, too?
18:17:13 <mcs> If we implement option #2, it will work on all platforms via a policies.json file.
18:17:21 <mcs> At least it should.
18:17:27 <sysrqb> ah, okay
18:17:57 <mcs> Users would be adding a policies.json file but I think the updater will leave it alone.
18:17:59 <sysrqb> sorry for my lack of understanding about the policies
18:18:12 <sysrqb> okay
18:18:33 <sysrqb> i agree #2 seem like a sane way to go with this
18:18:45 <sysrqb> *seems
18:19:25 <mcs> (some info here: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/customizing-firefox-using-policiesjson)
18:19:57 <sysrqb> thanks, i saw you linked it in the ticket, too
18:19:58 <mcs> We can create a patch for #2 and see how it looks / works
18:20:05 <sysrqb> sounds good to me
18:20:06 <sysrqb> thanks
18:20:12 <boklm> +1
18:22:48 <sysrqb> Jeremy_Rand_Talos: can you take a look at this ticket when you have some time? https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/30334
18:23:41 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sysrqb, yes, sure
18:24:07 <sysrqb> thanks
18:25:17 <sysrqb> okay, i don't see any  other items
18:26:07 <sysrqb> for discussion, i only have the retrospective
18:26:48 <sysrqb> i talked with pili earlier and we decided we should postpone the retrospective meeting by a few weeks
18:27:00 <pili> yup :)
18:27:12 <sysrqb> due to the current craziness with the virus
18:27:35 <sysrqb> and hopefully we'll all be in a more stable place (mentally and physically) in a couple weeks
18:27:38 <mcs> +1
18:27:58 <pospeselr> hopefully
18:28:25 <sysrqb> but I was thinking we could experiment with whatever media we want to use for the retrospective
18:28:31 <sysrqb> and hold the next team meeting that way
18:28:56 <sysrqb> it should support at least text and voice
18:29:02 <sysrqb> with optional video
18:29:19 <sysrqb> jitsi meet seems like the easy/obvious choice for that
18:29:51 <sysrqb> does anyone else have a preference/suggestion/recommendation?
18:30:11 <antonela> it works, i facilitated my family gathering last weekend and so far so good
18:30:17 <sysrqb> :)
18:30:21 <antonela> :)
18:30:21 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sysrqb, I've successfully used qTox for voice calls recently.  End to end encrypted unlike Jitsi meet.  The Whonix people seem to like it (it supports Tor, though doesn't require it).
18:30:44 <sysrqb> hrm
18:30:52 <sysrqb> including groups?
18:30:55 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> That said, since I won't be at the retrospective, my opinion has little to no weight :)
18:31:31 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sysrqb, qTox claims to support group calls but I haven't tested it
18:31:53 <sysrqb> interesting.
18:32:28 <sysrqb> "Audio calls, including group calls"
18:32:36 <sysrqb> i don't think i've heard anyone suggest it
18:32:44 <sysrqb> i'll ask around and see if anyone has tried it
18:32:50 <sysrqb> Jeremy_Rand_Talos: thanks!
18:33:03 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> Echo suppression isn't quite as good as Chromium, so having decent mics matters more
18:33:33 <sysrqb> that's good to know
18:34:20 <sysrqb> i'll do some researhc on qTox, and we can always fallback on jitsi meet
18:34:27 <pili> sounds good
18:34:35 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sounds good
18:35:18 <sysrqb> okay, does anyone have any comments/questions/concerns they want to raise before i end this meeting?
18:35:32 <sysrqb> all of your priorities for this week look good to me
18:35:35 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> yes
18:35:40 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> just a brief note
18:37:33 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sysrqb, I've gotten some decent feedback on the Namecoin support by asking on Reddit; I'll post a summary of it on tor-talk soon.  At some point we may want to ponder how much feedback we consider to be "enough" (I got 2 fairly detailed reports so far, each of which resulted in one Trac ticket, one of which already has a patch)
18:38:32 <sysrqb> great
18:39:25 <sysrqb> yes, i need to catch up on the status of that and i'm interested in the feedback you received
18:39:35 <pili> oh, I have one quick thing also
18:39:40 <sysrqb> :)
18:39:46 <sysrqb> Jeremy_Rand_Talos: .
18:39:46 <pili> can I go? :D
18:40:28 <sysrqb> Jeremy_Rand_Talos: i don't foresee us integrating namecoin into Alpha before we finish the migration to Firefox's Rapid Release
18:40:50 <sysrqb> just because that is a pretty big feature release right before a very large browser change
18:41:13 <sysrqb> so i don't see us moving forward with this before June or July
18:41:39 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sysrqb, yeah the feedback was useful.  I can probably get some more feedback by soliciting on Namecoin's Twitter account, will do that this week most likely
18:41:39 <sysrqb> at this point, at the earliest, if we decide that is the next step in this process
18:43:21 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sysrqb, ok yes, makes sense to wait for Rapid Release before adding to Alpha.  Are further improvements to Nightly also blocked by that?  (E.g. adding macOS/Windows support, if that's desired?)
18:43:49 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> (no need to have an answer on that right now, just worth pondering :) )
18:44:13 <sysrqb> Tor is not currently planning on moving namecoin support out of Nightly-only releases in the near future
18:44:40 <sysrqb> but i don't think improving support in Nightly is blocked by anything except for reviewer-resources
18:45:02 <sysrqb> so, you may run into a similar problem we currently have with RLBox sandboxing
18:45:11 <GeKo> *cough*
18:45:19 <sysrqb> we have patches, but we don't have enough time to review them or reviews are...slow :/
18:45:24 <GeKo> (which is not even in nightly ;))
18:45:48 <sysrqb> :/
18:46:58 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sysrqb, ok.  FWIW I'm trying to decide whether macOS/Windows support in Nightly is a good usage of my time in the near future.  Funding for me to do Win/macOS support may be available in the next couple months, if you think it's a good use of my time.
18:46:59 <sysrqb> (maybe there is an alternative/faster review path for rlbox, i'll look at that)
18:47:58 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> I'm inclined to start working on it as soon as funding availability happens, but if you think there are other things I should work on instead, I'll defer to you
18:48:19 <sysrqb> overall, i think the answer depends on whether you see benefit in adding that support
18:48:59 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sysrqb, one of the Reddit test reports included "the hardest part about the instructions was installing Linux", so based on that I think there's a benefit
18:49:39 <sysrqb> i don't think namecoin support will be deployed in a stable release anytime in the near future, so this is mostly an excerise in namecoin integration for you, at this point
18:50:18 <sysrqb> we're happy to provide a platform for that
18:50:36 <sysrqb> but i want to be honest and set expectations accordingly
18:51:16 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sysrqb, right, so to a significant extent the question is "what factors are the biggest obstacles to advancing to Alpha", and whether adding Win/macOS support has any benefit for overcoming those obstacles
18:52:56 <sysrqb> based on my understanding, no, adding Win and macOS support won't help with this
18:53:40 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> sysrqb, well, it might help us get more testers.  Besides that, I agree that it may not help much.
18:53:41 <sysrqb> or, to put it another way, they are not a missing piece
18:53:53 <sysrqb> right
18:54:11 <sysrqb> more supported platforms will give us more (maybe better) feedback
18:54:18 <sysrqb> and that is an important data point
18:55:12 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> yeah, so for that reason my take is that it's worth my time to add those platforms, as long as it doesn't become a giant time sink (I don't expect it to be one)
18:55:55 <sysrqb> but moving integration from nightly into alpha is a decision that involves conversations with Tor's directors
18:56:12 <sysrqb> and Tor isn't is a place right now where this is a priority
18:56:32 <sysrqb> Jeremy_Rand_Talos: that sounds fine to me
18:56:37 <sysrqb> we'll take patches for them
18:57:11 <sysrqb> we can continue this conversatoin after the meeting, if needed
18:57:23 <sysrqb> we should give pili 1 minute of time before the hour
18:57:29 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> ok
18:57:35 <pili> so my thing is just a reminder to all staff members to make sure you submit your timesheets for March (not just save them...)  :)
18:57:37 <pili> :D
18:57:43 <sysrqb> :)
18:57:50 <sysrqb> yes, that is a good reminder
18:58:05 <sysrqb> thanks
18:58:33 <sysrqb> okay, i think that wraps up this meeting
18:58:38 <sysrqb> have a good week everyone!
18:58:46 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos> thanks!
18:58:47 <sysrqb> and stay safe and sane
18:58:51 <sysrqb> #endmeeting