17:30:37 <pili> #startmeeting tor browser 8/05
17:30:37 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Aug  5 17:30:37 2019 UTC.  The chair is pili. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:30:37 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:30:40 <alsmith> special guest :D
17:30:49 <sysrqb> wooo!
17:30:49 <pospeselr> the specialist of guests ^^;
17:30:59 <pospeselr> not in a bad way though sorry
17:31:04 <tjr> o/
17:31:14 <pili> here's the pad: https://storm.torproject.org/shared/hvZjd6mXrOvkOQFnBcSDD3gl35uvLme6ZpjKyB4qY74
17:31:22 <pili> please add your updates if you haven't done so already
17:31:27 <pili> and mark any items in bold
17:31:28 <antonela> hellooo
17:31:57 <acat> hi!
17:34:41 <isabela> oh
17:34:41 <pili> we'll just give a few more minutes for people to add their updates
17:35:00 <isabela> i will watch!
17:35:08 <isabela> i am writing comments on the pad :P
17:35:27 <isabela> i mean not the storm pad
17:35:30 <isabela> the other one
17:36:01 <alsmith> otf browser proposal pad
17:36:15 * GeKo is here now
17:36:18 <sysrqb> https://pad.riseup.net/p/otf-tb-2019-2020
17:36:25 <isabela> :)
17:36:47 <sysrqb> now it is logged forever :)
17:37:32 <pili> ok
17:37:35 <pili> let's start
17:37:44 <pili> oh, GeKo is here, he can drive now ;)
17:38:08 <GeKo> uhm... :)
17:38:22 <GeKo> let's look at the bold items
17:38:47 <GeKo> pili i think you are up :)
17:39:15 <pili> ok, so I tried to do some triage last week, but got a bit stuck and could have done with a second opinion
17:39:24 <GeKo> tjr: see pospeselr's question
17:39:41 <pili> so I'm just wondering how people would prefer (or not) to be pinged for a second opinion on tickets
17:39:54 <pili> e.g if I see you recently active on irc should I assume you're ok to bother ;)
17:40:36 <pili> we can also discuss this when we do round 2 of the task re-distribution
17:41:00 <pili> so this is a bit of a sneak peek to what I'm finding with the triage process
17:41:19 <pili> and maybe other people that are starting to do it can share their issues also
17:43:07 <pili> ok, no comments, let's move on? ;)
17:43:08 <mcs> You could try posting triage status plus “need help” requests in #tor-dev (with tbb-team included).
17:43:09 <sysrqb> my guess is this will be case-by-case
17:43:48 <pili> mcs: we can try that
17:44:01 <sysrqb> when you would've liked a second opinion, did you usually have a specific person in mind who could help?
17:44:08 <pili> sysrqb: yeah, I understand every individual is different :)
17:44:09 <pili> nope :D
17:44:11 <sysrqb> or was it just any person
17:44:12 <tjr> Another option would be to flag the bug as 'needs_information', passing to an individual team member you know it's on vacation, possibly taking into account their areas of expertise.
17:44:15 <sysrqb> okay
17:44:33 <pili> I guess this will play into the areas of expertise spreadsheet I want to work on for the team ;)
17:44:38 <tjr> My only concen with tbb-team tags in irc is we're all going to have to go through the backscroll to see if it was something we should see
17:45:00 <mcs> tjr: that’s true; could be a lot of noise
17:45:09 <tjr> s/you know is on vacation/you know ISN'T on vacation/
17:45:23 <sysrqb> we could get better about triaging tickets with a specific keywork like needs_information
17:45:51 <sysrqb> as a daily or every-other-day routine
17:46:01 <sysrqb> or maybe this is a role we create
17:46:18 <sysrqb> and someone isresponsible for it every week
17:47:34 <pili> ok, that sounds like a task re-org part 2 discussion then
17:47:39 <pili> happy to postpone until then :)
17:47:40 <GeKo> yeah
17:48:14 <pili> the other comment I had was that I've started tagging some tickets with sponsor30-can and when I'm done I will need to get a second opinion on this with "someone"
17:48:47 <pili> this is the anti-censorship/bridges project that was supposed to start this month
17:49:20 <pili> and that's me done
17:49:47 <GeKo> so the sponsor30-must ones do not exhaust the full project and we gather not potential candidate bugs?
17:49:59 <GeKo> s/not//
17:50:26 <GeKo> like stuff we could do if time permits but are not on the cricital path?
17:50:49 <pili> right
17:50:58 <pili> well
17:51:11 <pili> not sure if we have any -must ones yet
17:51:19 <GeKo> we have
17:51:25 <GeKo> #31284 and children
17:51:39 <pili> right, but there's no existing tickets there
17:51:44 <GeKo> and help with #31269
17:51:49 <GeKo> in general
17:52:09 <pili> these are just master tickets to collect the work
17:52:10 <pili> but we have pre-existing tickets that (presumably) informed this proposal :)
17:52:16 <pili> which are not tagged/included in this work
17:52:17 <GeKo> but anyway, sounds reasonable to me
17:52:32 <antonela> im planning to make the anti-censorship on thursday to coordinate this work - whoever will take it should join us :)
17:52:46 <GeKo> aha. i guess we could then think about giving those tickets a higher prio
17:53:14 <GeKo> under the assumption that we picked those tickets to inform the proposal because they were most-pressing
17:53:22 <pili> so for now I'm putting everything into a sponsor30 bag for us to select the ones that fit the project
17:53:41 <GeKo> but i'd have to re-read the proposal to double-check that
17:54:16 <GeKo> okay
17:54:21 <GeKo> acat: you are up
17:54:22 <pili> we didn't link any tickets in the proposal
17:54:27 <GeKo> i see
17:54:44 <acat> i think it was sysrqb who put it in bold
17:54:55 <GeKo> either way :)
17:54:58 <GeKo> sysrqb: ^
17:55:06 <sysrqb> ah yep
17:55:16 <sysrqb> only a quick question
17:55:25 <sysrqb> acat: you're lookingat the last branchI posted?
17:55:37 <acat> acat30429+1_tor-browser_android_68esr_19, yes
17:55:52 <sysrqb> okay
17:56:15 <sysrqb> hopefully i'll have a new branch based on 68esr today
17:56:24 <sysrqb> i think reviewing that branchis a better use of time
17:56:40 <sysrqb> so maybe wait until i update the ticket before you start reviewing
17:57:01 <acat> ok, makes sense
17:57:06 <sysrqb> thanks
17:57:09 <sysrqb> done.
17:57:16 <acat> hopefully there will not be too many conflicts though :)
17:57:29 <sysrqb> yep
17:57:30 <GeKo> anything else to bring up during the status updates?
17:58:08 <GeKo> sisbell: how is it going with the esr68 toolchain? and where can i follow your work here?
17:58:33 <GeKo> not sure if you status update is talking about that critical work
17:58:35 <sisbell> one sec, i'll get the link
17:58:48 <GeKo> but i'd like to get a  handle on where we are here
17:59:13 <GeKo> (i feel we are not in a bad shape on linux, macOS and Windows, but don't know where we are on android)
17:59:20 <sisbell> https://github.com/sisbell/tor-browser-build/tree/esr_68_0727
17:59:52 <sisbell> Everything is looking good on android toolchain, just need to apply patches from esr60 to this branch
18:00:07 <sisbell> So next step is to merge those from sysrqb's branch
18:00:10 <GeKo> awesome
18:01:34 <sisbell> I'm still using pre-compiled versions of tor, however
18:01:46 <GeKo> yeah, that's okay for now
18:01:56 <GeKo> but we should change that once tor browser 9 is out
18:03:39 <GeKo> sisbell: where are we switching to clang8 in your branch?
18:04:14 <GeKo> see: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1510897
18:04:23 <GeKo> you might want to take that into account
18:04:30 <sisbell> I have a patch for that. I haven't checked in
18:04:37 <GeKo> good, good
18:04:39 <sisbell> But that all works fine.
18:04:40 <GeKo> :)
18:05:01 <GeKo> alright let's go to the discussion part then
18:05:11 <GeKo> what do we do with the next meeting?
18:05:32 <GeKo> it seems that a bunch of folks will be away next monday (and week) including pili and me
18:05:39 <GeKo> i guess we just skip it?
18:06:11 <pili> it could be a good test run for someone else to run the meeting also :)
18:06:11 <sysrqb> sure
18:06:16 <pili> I can't remember who that was delegated to in the task re-org :)
18:06:19 <sysrqb> or i can run it :)
18:06:47 <GeKo> i think sysrqb
18:07:00 <sysrqb> i suppose we can have a quick meeting, if there aren't many updates or discussion topics
18:07:03 <GeKo> so, let's try it
18:07:04 <GeKo> yeah
18:07:47 * GeKo hands mic to pili for the otf proposal
18:07:48 <pili> sounds good to me :)
18:08:08 <pili> oh
18:08:09 <pili> so alsmith has started putting together some ideas on our next big proposal to OTF
18:08:16 <pili> based on some input from people on the team
18:08:38 <pili> and we just wanted to review the ideas with everyone and start giving it shapre
18:08:45 <pili> s/shapre/shape
18:09:10 <pili> the deadline for this proposal is in September
18:09:13 * isabela atena turns on :P
18:09:43 <alsmith> another question is — is this work we’ve proposed reasonable for the june 2020 - june 2021 timeframe
18:10:08 <pili> 1st of September deadline actually
18:10:11 <pili> so we don't have a huge amount of time :)
18:11:09 <GeKo> tjr: there is something missing after "Can we add", no?
18:11:16 <tjr> optomistic socks
18:11:20 <tjr> Tryign to find the number :)
18:11:53 <GeKo> #5915?
18:12:03 <tjr> Yup
18:12:03 <sysrqb> related to that, are core-tor changes covered by this proposal?
18:12:21 <sysrqb> or involvement/coordination withthenetworking team?
18:12:26 <pili> sysrqb: nope, this is purely a Tor Browser + UX project
18:12:27 <sysrqb> *with the networking
18:12:32 <pili> from what I understand
18:12:48 <alsmith> the idea is that this proposal will be focused on tor browser, but if there are changes to core tor that need to be made to make that work happen, let’s talk about it
18:12:49 <sysrqb> okay
18:13:04 <sysrqb> alsmith: okay sounds good
18:13:07 <isabela> yep
18:14:06 <isabela> i would like us to consider the idea of moving away from ESR - that investment will free the team later on to do other things that can improve the user experience
18:14:18 <GeKo> see my comment :)
18:14:22 <isabela> ahh
18:14:23 <GeKo> yes, but
18:14:26 <GeKo> :)
18:14:26 <isabela> yes
18:14:31 <isabela> lets build a proposal with that
18:14:35 <isabela> build a path out of it
18:14:41 <sysrqb> this timeframe is a little interesting too, because June 2020 is around the time Mozilla think Fennec will die
18:14:52 <alsmith> so we should priortize moving away from esr and add other things as we can?
18:14:55 <isabela> and then say we are doing this so we can also do x and y that will improve user retention/experience
18:15:00 <sysrqb> so we may be scrambling to to get onto Fenix around that time
18:15:01 <GeKo> i suspect this particular item will be the most labor-consuming one
18:15:06 <sysrqb> unless Mozilla's plans change
18:15:16 <GeKo> so in other words: we should not but other hard items in the proposal
18:15:23 <GeKo> s/but/put/
18:15:28 <isabela> hmm
18:15:39 <isabela> lets start working on this calculation?
18:15:42 <isabela> that is key for us here
18:15:49 <isabela> on picking the right pitch
18:16:08 <pili> also we have year 2 of S30 starting around then
18:16:15 <pili> although it's just a third and a fifth of one dev ;)
18:16:26 <alsmith> so we start working on estimating work for moving away from ESR, see how much that is, and then add other pieces as there is room (?)
18:16:28 <isabela> GeKo: because i think either adblock or onionshare should be something there
18:16:31 <tjr> Should we have a brainstorming meeting about what things we want to do for moving off esr, and then which of those we need? (Either before or after this funding proposal is due)
18:16:34 <pili> sorry a third of one browser dev and a fifth of one mobile dev
18:16:51 <pili> tjr: sounds like a good idea, it will probably have to be after the proposal though
18:16:56 <isabela> tjr: yes
18:17:05 <pili> given that we have just under a month to write it :)
18:17:07 <alsmith> and that’s fine — what’s due on 9/1 is a concept note so we don’t have to have all of the details
18:17:08 <GeKo> isabela: i am against an ad blocker at this point but in favor of experimenting with enhanced tracking protection
18:17:20 <isabela> pili: but that determs the capacity for the task and if we can add anotehr task
18:17:35 <isabela> GeKo: i am cool w/ that :)
18:17:40 <antonela> GeKo: me too
18:17:42 <pili> yeah, it's just scheduling is going to be tricky
18:17:55 <GeKo> great
18:17:56 <isabela> my main thing here is that we should try to combine one or two things like that if we can
18:18:08 <pili> I think GeKo and myself will not be back from vacations until 19th August
18:18:26 <pili> gives us 2 weeks to have the meeting and write the proposal
18:18:52 <pili> alsmith: right, I just saw about the concept note
18:18:53 <GeKo> seems we are in the usual tor deadline race :(
18:19:15 <isabela> hmm - what if we do it without yall just to get a ballpark estimation (maybe the rest of the team could help) and keep driving till you back and catch up?
18:19:16 <sysrqb> no, RACE is another sponsor :)
18:19:22 <isabela> lol
18:19:28 <alsmith> hahaa
18:19:42 <GeKo> isabela: but anyway, i think the esr transition is probably a big project in the sense that it can easily get stretched over the whole one year time
18:20:07 <GeKo> but it seems putting the tracking protection thing on and maybe onionbalance would still fit
18:20:09 <pili> alsmith: if we have the esr68 meeting the week of the 19th August will that give you enough time to write the concept note?
18:20:16 <isabela> GeKo: aha
18:20:19 <alsmith> yes
18:20:21 <GeKo> sysrqb: you still have your humor, good!
18:20:23 <GeKo> ;)
18:20:28 <isabela> hahah
18:20:29 <sysrqb> ;)
18:20:51 <GeKo> s/transition/migration/
18:21:25 <GeKo> tjr: yeah, ideally we would have such a brainstorming meeting
18:21:40 <GeKo> bc otherwise it seems really hard to pin down all the things we need to take into account
18:21:48 <isabela> i heard august 19 is the answer
18:21:57 <GeKo> which makes the calculation for the proposal hard
18:22:00 <GeKo> wfm :)
18:23:06 <alsmith> could we tack it on before or after aug 19 browser meeting?
18:24:06 <sysrqb> i think more people are available after this meeting?
18:24:14 <sysrqb> although it is already late in Europe :/
18:24:18 <GeKo> yeah
18:24:29 <pili> I do have a hard stop today :/
18:24:42 <GeKo> me too
18:24:44 <sysrqb> sorry, not today, on the 19th
18:24:58 <sysrqb> but "this meeting" being tor browser team meeting
18:25:15 <GeKo> but i think i could make it on 19th 1930 utc
18:25:24 <GeKo> i.e. after the regular meeting
18:25:25 <pili> sure, we could try
18:25:44 <pili> I probably only have 30 minutes but I'm not as important for the brainstorming :)
18:25:57 <alsmith> :)
18:26:08 <pili> on the 19th that is
18:26:15 <alsmith> got it
18:27:04 <alsmith> i’ll circulate a pad for notes beforehand, while geko and pili are afk, and then send a reminder friday before
18:27:11 <pili> so, we're going to have the meeting on the 19th to decide what would be needed for transition away from ESRs
18:27:26 <pili> and what effort that would involve
18:27:41 <pili> and that will inform how much of it we add to the proposal?
18:27:50 <GeKo> i think so
18:28:02 <isabela> yep
18:28:03 <alsmith> yes, and if we can add other objectives
18:28:08 <pili> other than that what do we definitely want to go in the proposal?
18:28:13 <pili> or nothing else other than transition from ESR?
18:28:35 <isabela> we are considering 2 things
18:28:43 <isabela> the tracking thing and the onion share thing
18:28:45 <pili> ok
18:28:55 <pili> that's what I thought, just wanted to be clear :)
18:29:05 <GeKo> yeah, what isa said
18:29:38 <pili> cool, wfm :)
18:29:54 <alsmith> yahoo. thank you for making time for this convo today :)
18:30:13 <GeKo> sure
18:30:18 <GeKo> are we good with that item?
18:30:23 <pili> I'm good
18:30:24 <alsmith> yes
18:30:27 <GeKo> great
18:30:32 <GeKo> any other items for discussion today?
18:30:35 <tjr> Can someone make a pad link today where we can brainstorm ideas leading up to the Aug 19 meeting?
18:30:40 <alsmith> tjr i will
18:31:08 * tjr will add it to his pile-of-open-tabs-that-functions-as-a-todo-list
18:31:16 <sysrqb> +1
18:31:17 <sysrqb> :)
18:31:19 <GeKo> alsmith: just put it on the meeting pad behind the otf proposal item?
18:31:29 <alsmith> GeKo will do
18:31:34 <GeKo> or below, whatever :)
18:31:35 <GeKo> thx
18:31:37 <alsmith> doing rn
18:32:05 <GeKo> alright. i am calling it, thanks everyone for today and have a  productive week :) *baf*
18:32:14 <pili> #endmeeting