15:01:04 <richard> #startmeeting Tor Browser Weekly Meeting 2022-05-16
15:01:04 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon May 16 15:01:04 2022 UTC.  The chair is richard. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:04 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:01:12 <donuts> hello hello
15:01:14 <boklm> hi
15:01:24 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> Almost like evolution did not prepare him for this situation
15:01:40 <donuts> good job re: the turtle richard
15:03:25 <richard> turtles are poorly adapted to deal with predators that have hands
15:03:30 <richard> fortunately i did not want to eat that boi
15:03:41 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> heh
15:04:36 <richard> ok anyway, I assume people are filling out the pad which can be found here as always: https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-tbb-keep
15:05:14 * Jeremy_Rand_Talos__ resists urge to add turtle ASCII art to the pad
15:12:16 <richard> ok, I don't see any bolded items in the individual sections
15:13:12 <richard> PieroV: re the first point (dev scripts in tor-browser.git) I'm fully in support of this
15:13:15 <donuts> oh there's one in mine
15:13:20 <richard> better than every dev re-inventing the wheel
15:13:28 <donuts> but i added it to the discussion section anyway
15:13:36 <boklm> we can put them in the tools/ directory
15:13:46 <PieroV> richard: I'd be in favor of publishing them anyway, for example in the wiki
15:13:48 <richard> +1
15:14:00 <PieroV> but I think that adding them to the repo is the best idea
15:14:10 <PieroV> +1 also from me for the tools dir
15:14:24 <richard> you think our current workflow of 'oh yeah i have a script for that task let me put in this ephemeral paste' is less than ideal?
15:14:57 <richard> anyway that sounds good to me :)
15:15:11 <PieroV> yeah, it doesn't seem 100% good :)
15:15:30 <richard> re android let's wait on the release meeting today
15:15:35 <PieroV> sometimes it's I have the script in this GitLab issue which everybody will forget about
15:15:36 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> Speaking as a downstream dev, I very much like having this kind of stuff in the tools/  dir
15:16:25 <PieroV> anyway, just to be informed
15:16:27 <richard> and I'll follow up on the ticket today re: line height unless there's anything that needs immediate discussion
15:16:45 <richard> ok donuts: take it away
15:16:47 <PieroV> now we have crashes both on the released stable and the alpha to be released
15:16:56 <PieroV> (but I won't add anything to this)
15:16:57 <donuts> quick question about the ticket re: line height
15:17:20 <donuts> will that change the front-end at all? i don't understand the original fingerprinting issue very well
15:18:18 <PieroV> donuts: I think it may change in the order of subpixel, from the numbers we've quickly seen
15:19:07 <PieroV> If I understood correctly, when the original patch was released, we didn't tell the OS in navigator.userAgent, and getComputedStyle returned a value on line-height that could be exploited to get the platform
15:19:18 <donuts> ah I see
15:19:29 <PieroV> but now the OS is already known, and even upstream doesn't tell the line-height directly
15:19:52 <PieroV> and that's why I'm in favor of deprecating it, at least from a superficial point of view
15:20:08 <richard> it seems reasonable to me
15:20:10 <donuts> sgtm
15:20:23 <richard> if possible we should add a test to verify the upstream fixes keeps working
15:20:33 <richard> to the testsuite
15:20:43 <PieroV> however, someone (that could be also Mozilla, we, or someone else) should first see if our patch defends against other ways of getting the line-height
15:21:29 <PieroV> but at the moment, even with the patch, Linux vs Win gives different results on Thorin's tests... but there are many factors that could influence that result
15:21:46 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> FWIW I do think we should aim long-term to hide the OS, but if upstream fixed this vector, WFM
15:21:59 <PieroV> richard: the preference to return 'normal' on getComputedStyle has been removed, and will always return normal now
15:22:28 <PieroV> but it isn't clear if the patch is effective against indirect methods of getting the line-height, and if these methods give more information than navigator.userAgent
15:23:37 <richard> fun
15:23:50 <richard> add it to the pile of fingerprinting vectors to investigate when we have people to do it
15:24:25 <donuts> okay first thing on my list: i spotted the job ads for the software eng positions went up (a week ago?)
15:24:39 <richard> yes
15:24:40 <donuts> is there an email alias/hiring committee set up?
15:24:43 <donuts> i don't think i'm copied in
15:24:55 <PieroV> didn't Erin send an email months ago about it?
15:25:00 <PieroV> or is it a new thing?
15:25:10 <donuts> this one: https://www.torproject.org/about/jobs/software-engineer-applications-team-2/
15:25:19 <PieroV> oh, I see, right!
15:25:21 <richard> so I think you were explicitly left out so as to not overburden you with additional nonsense to pay attention to
15:25:35 <donuts> yeah that's totally fair ha
15:25:37 <richard> i can get you added if you are still interested :)
15:25:39 <PieroV> (I misread software eng director)
15:25:42 <donuts> I was mostly just curious how it's going so far
15:25:46 <donuts> but maybe it's still early days
15:26:09 <richard> so far we have already some applicants, but i have not delved into the details
15:26:22 <richard> (since it went up late last week)
15:26:32 <PieroV> we'll have the first meeting this week :)
15:26:38 <richard> yes
15:27:09 <donuts> okay thanks! i'm happy to stay looped out, but lmk if you have any super exciting developments!
15:27:25 <donuts> next thing on my list: the community QA recruitment campaign launched last week
15:27:36 <PieroV> \o/
15:27:44 <donuts> I've added links to the pad to our social media posts
15:27:46 <richard> I will say, we are also (most likely) going to be hiring a part time person at the the start of June to help with some of the 'easier' browser rebase work (rebranding, etc) and with the build stuff for the esr102 migration
15:28:24 <donuts> we have also translated the post and forum sticky into Russian, and various tor project members have spread the message in their own locales too
15:28:33 <donuts> richard: sounds good, thanks
15:28:39 * Jeremy_Rand_Talos__ hopes the ESR102 toolchain changes don't cause more havoc for the ARM/POWER ports
15:28:56 <richard> more platforms, more problems :p
15:29:03 <richard> (it *should* be fiiiiine)
15:29:04 <donuts> please spread the message and share the social media posts in your own networks too – the more reach this gets, the more new alpha testers we should receive
15:29:24 <donuts> I am (maybe) going to write a blog post this week to accompany the campaign if I have time
15:29:25 <richard> if we have a post i can share on the r/tor reddit
15:29:34 <donuts> ahhh yeah great idea richard
15:29:39 <richard> or even if we don't i can do something I'm sure
15:29:45 <donuts> okay I'll definitely do the blog post then
15:29:49 <donuts> and we can share on reddit too
15:29:50 <richard> i've got the reddit flair :D
15:29:53 <donuts> :D
15:30:04 <donuts> there's some other misc cool stuff going on to support the campaign too
15:30:09 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> donuts, cool, will see if I can signal boost from the Namecoin social media channels
15:30:28 <donuts> like we have a new and improved onboarding overview in the community portal: https://community.torproject.org/user-research/become-tester/
15:30:51 <boklm> nice!
15:30:58 <PieroV> donuts: I've added a comment some time ago, but I think it hasn't been addressed
15:31:08 <donuts> and custom forum badges for alpha testers too: https://forum.torproject.net/badges (scroll to the bottom)
15:31:17 <richard> ooh cute
15:31:19 <donuts> PireoV: yes sorry, I've been meaning to reply
15:31:23 <donuts> *PieroV
15:31:29 <PieroV> the end of that page mentions nightlies, but we didn't add the link to download dthem
15:31:39 <donuts> you're totally right, we need to fix how we present and talk about nightlies too
15:32:10 <PieroV> okay, thanks!
15:32:13 <donuts> but I'm considering that a later step, and don't want to detract from trying to recruit new alpha testers at the moment (or risk confusing new users)
15:32:40 <donuts> I think we should probably shift nightlies to an actual tor project branded page too, if/when we do add them to the download page
15:32:43 <PieroV> (and yes, the new badges are neat :))
15:32:45 * Jeremy_Rand_Talos__ thinks the Nightlies label themselves as Alpha now, will file a bug if it's not fixed already
15:32:59 <PieroV> donuts: I've already opened an issue about that, iirc
15:33:04 <donuts> Jeremy_Rand_Talos__: thanks very much for offering to share!
15:33:06 <PieroV> to the web team
15:33:10 <donuts> PieroV: got it!
15:33:25 <donuts> we're also looking into a light redesign/design changes for the download page as part of sponsor 9
15:33:35 <donuts> so can wrap the nightly question into that piece of work
15:33:56 <boklm> Jeremy_Rand_Talos__: in which part of the browser does it label itself as Alpha?
15:35:02 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> boklm, I think the home page in Nightly has a blurb about how you're using Alpha?
15:35:22 <PieroV> donuts: https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/web/tpo/-/issues/287 (lol, I couldn't find it because I wrote nighly initially)
15:35:54 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> Might be misremembering, it's been a week or so since I last used Nightly
15:35:56 <donuts> ty pierov, I'll add that to the list for the redesign
15:36:52 <donuts> Jeremy_Rand_Talos__: ah yes the new banner
15:37:10 <richard> oh the about:tor testing message?
15:37:14 <donuts> "Tor Browser Alpha is an unstable version of Tor Browser you can use to preview new features, test their performance and provide feedback before release."
15:37:15 <donuts> yeah richard
15:37:34 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> Yeah that sounds right
15:38:23 <donuts> can you do some name magic within a sentence? or do we need to duplicate the string?
15:38:37 <donuts> we could also make it more ambiguous and not name alpha specifically
15:39:04 <donuts> "This is an unstable version of Tor Browser you can use..."
15:39:14 <PieroV> we can add a placeholder in the string
15:39:28 <PieroV> and a comment for translators that the TB version will go in that placeholder
15:39:38 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> donuts, my preference is to not make it ambiguous
15:39:41 <donuts> cool, makes sense
15:39:49 <donuts> I'll create a ticket about it
15:39:54 <donuts> thanks both!
15:40:15 <PieroV> (we could also fix the spacing between the icon and the first line :p)
15:40:24 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> no problem, glad I'm not insane :)
15:40:53 <donuts> Pierov: iirc the icon should be roughly center aligned to the first line
15:41:26 <PieroV> oh, okay, I like it with the tops aligned more, but it's okay also as it is
15:41:27 <donuts> maybe it looks weird though
15:41:55 <PieroV> Firefox has some spacing in the private window first page, but it's because of the line-height
15:42:15 <richard> 'This is an unstable...' works for me, given that the actual build number is in the top right of about:tor
15:42:18 <donuts> yeah, feel free to make it more consistent with firefox's if you want – it was originally based on the same banner
15:42:33 <richard> if you've managed to find our nightlies then you probably meant to download/run them
15:42:46 <donuts> richard: you would be surpised
15:43:09 <donuts> i suspect quite a few people find their way onto alpha without really knowing what it's intended for
15:43:17 <donuts> probably because at some point someone said a bug was fixed there
15:43:27 <richard> hm true
15:43:41 <donuts> i have also had to ask users what color their TB icon is before (although that's relatively rare)
15:43:48 * Jeremy_Rand_Talos__ discovered last week that there exists some guy on Reddit who thinks Nightly was created specifically for Namecoin v0v
15:43:52 <richard> :D
15:43:52 <PieroV> yeah, and I've pointed Android users to nightly for the same reason (but I tend to write that it's for testing only)
15:44:13 <richard> hm ok very well points taken
15:44:30 <donuts> okay otherwise I'm all done hogging the meeting, thank you everyone :D
15:45:13 <PieroV> I have a last-minute question
15:45:29 <PieroV> Could we start profiling CPU time in the builds?
15:45:55 <PieroV> I mean in the logs, in addition to the wall time
15:46:26 <richard> that sounds like a really good iea
15:46:32 <PieroV> I'll tell you more
15:46:35 <PieroV> I had an idea
15:46:36 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> PieroV, FYI Cirrus shows a nice CPU and memory usage graph over time
15:46:48 <richard> i posted some stats on the new build server and the new numbers are great
15:46:53 <richard> but there's clearly room for improvement
15:47:16 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> So I guess that's another reason I should finish those patches and send them your way
15:47:19 <PieroV> If you set to use N threads, we could have a queue to build things that parallelize good and spans on N-1 threads, and a queue for single threaded builds (usually the go stuff uses only one core and is super long)
15:49:13 <PieroV> Jeremy_Rand_Talos__: cool, I'd like to see them, but I have to admit I'm nor really up to date on what Cirrus is :)
15:49:17 <richard> queuing downloads would also be nice to have as well
15:49:22 <boklm> we would need to add support for building multiple projects in parralel (which sounds possible)
15:49:29 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> Yeah on Cirrus I assign cores to the build VM based on which projects are parallelization-friendly
15:49:33 <richard> you know, while we're adding major features to tor-browser-build/rbm
15:49:36 <PieroV> Jeremy_Rand_Talos__: we can speak about them outside meeting one time or another
15:50:45 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> PieroV, yeah happy to chat about it anytime
15:51:26 * donuts has created tor-browser#40921
15:52:51 <richard> donuts: please assign to me and I'll get to it today
15:53:06 <donuts> done, and thank you ^^
15:53:52 <richard> ok do woe have any other topics for discussion?
15:53:55 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> donuts, feel free to credit me in the bug report if you like, I figure my comments in this channel are a public record anyway
15:54:07 <donuts> Jeremy_Rand_Talos__: ack!
15:55:35 <Jeremy_Rand_Talos__> thanks donuts :)
15:55:58 <richard> alright then I'm going to call it then
15:56:03 <richard> everyone have a good week!
15:56:08 <richard> cya on irc
15:56:10 <richard> #endmeeting