15:08:09 #startmeeting Gitlab July 7th 15:08:09 Meeting started Tue Jul 7 15:08:09 2020 UTC. The chair is gaba. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:08:09 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 15:08:10 sprru 15:08:12 sorry 15:08:13 they cannot create their own projects (we are not a hosting platform for everybody) and cannot create snippets 15:08:20 i'll let you lead :) 15:08:26 but should be able to *fork* projects and contribute via that 15:09:13 did you see the mail from hans? 15:09:24 he couldnt create forks or repos with an external user 15:09:50 ufa, docs.gitlab.com is down 15:10:21 looking 15:10:55 did you do something such that he could? a lot of users have a project limit of zero 15:11:11 i see he has a snowflake project? 15:11:42 Can create groups: No 15:11:43 Personal projects limit: 0 15:11:44 I see 15:11:47 that is the default 15:12:05 yeah, i tend to bump it to 1-2 if i know for example it is someone who is going to help with tpo/core/tor 15:12:07 and needs to fork tor 15:12:13 hiro removed the external user from hans 15:12:22 ah, that is fine in his case i think 15:12:29 ahf: maybe we should do that for everybody 15:12:42 5 projects for all external users 15:12:46 i don't think we should remove external for everybody before we are 100% sure our permissions on all of tpo/ is correct 15:13:02 not remove external users, change the limit on projects 15:13:06 ah! 15:13:11 gaba: https://gitlab.com/help is up 15:13:30 we need to lower the barriers of contributing through gitlab 15:13:44 right 15:14:05 i'm just double checking if this helps with fork 15:14:58 yeah, bumping it to 1 makes me able to fork a project, but not create my own project 15:15:08 okay, so i need to look at *all* external users and bump their limit to 1-2 ? 15:15:12 we're talking about https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/issues/48 right? 15:15:26 right 15:15:31 anarcaT: i was just looking for that ticket 15:15:40 I want us to talk about https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/issues/48 and https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/issues/15 today 15:15:40 woot 15:15:52 well, sort of. i think right now we are talking about an issue with the users we have in the queue right now 15:15:55 that we imported from trac 15:16:02 i'm happy to talk, but i don't have much time to volunteer ;) 15:16:12 yes, that is mostly about permissions (#15) 15:16:35 i like how KDE did this - with a server-wide group to grant permissions 15:16:41 so, you are all ok if we bump or external users projects to 5? 15:16:49 heck, if they can only fork projects we can just bump it to five 15:16:49 yeah 15:16:56 anarcat: i couldnt totally understand how they are working it out 15:16:59 i can do that with a script 15:17:02 we have several groups 15:17:06 ahf: thanks! +1 15:17:23 ahf: I will comment this in the #15 ticket so we can document it later 15:17:35 one difference they have with us it they don't have all projects in a top-level group, but have groups per team 15:17:35 * gaba is going to move that into documentation when she is done with wikis... 15:17:41 yep, we are not solving the issue with this, so i think it's more of a side-ticket to that 15:17:51 anarcat: we have a tpo group but then we have subgroups 15:18:38 gaba: yes, i know :) 15:19:11 ok, i have added a note on this now in my personal tracker which is still post-its but is gonna be migrated to GL soon 8) 15:19:24 hans have given us access to fdroid's very beefy builder 15:19:33 anarcat: yes, i know you know but how that is different ? 15:19:36 i think we should make it global with the socialist load distribution algorithm 15:19:47 +1 ahf 15:20:03 and i am talking with DO about their sponsorship. i think their 1200USD/period means 1200USD now and then we go poke them when we spend that, so not 1200USD/month as i thought for a while yesterday 15:20:13 the free software sponsor people are coming back to me today with the final info 15:20:31 but, even if that means it is only 100 USD/month we can still setup another builder there 15:20:41 yes, sounds good 15:20:44 and i'm gonna write to Linode this week too to see if i can get some money out of them too 15:20:56 gaba: i think the point is that they don't use the group/subgroup categorization to grant access - they just grant access to the group in individual projects 15:21:02 at least that's the point i was trying to make 15:21:21 you mean that there are groups but the projects get created outside the groups and the groups get access 15:21:24 i see 15:21:40 still not sure if that model would work for us 15:21:45 i think KDE have a waaaay higher amount of developers arriving and leaving that only hacks on a very few amount of projects 15:21:52 where we have a very limited amount of people working on a lot of projects 15:21:53 gaba: not if you want the global dashboards, no 15:21:56 but otherwise it could :) 15:21:59 anyways 15:22:04 didn't mean to derail that 15:22:19 ok, can we talk about tpo/tpa/gitlab#48 ? 15:22:25 * ahf looks 15:23:02 hm 15:23:18 that is what we want to solve with the lobby where we also try to solve the cypherpunks "problem"? 15:23:23 my main concern now is that we are not creating new accounts 15:23:33 for people that didnt have trac accounts 15:24:05 we *can* do that if we want. they are almost easier to do than the email changing of imported users :-/ 15:24:12 i thought the idea for that was that people would write to gitlab-admin@ and we create the email 15:24:17 create the account* 15:25:28 if we create them with external=True, project limit = 5, can create groups = False, then i think it might be OK to add also unknown people now 15:25:31 gaba: maybe we need to talk about documentation again :) 15:25:32 to start testing that a bit more 15:25:37 after we're done with users 15:25:48 anarcat: yes, i have been quite busy but will do documetnation soon when i have time 15:26:10 ahf: the question is about creating all users, not only trac users 15:26:29 gaba: i was refering to the fact that you created a new wiki in the gitlab project, but we can talk later :) 15:27:00 gaba: yeah, that is what i am talking about too 15:27:25 as long as we configure them like the ones we imported, i think it might be OK to do now. we have some experience now with all the trac imported users and nothing has been b0rked by it 15:27:45 as long as they have these flags: external=True, project limit=5, can create groups = False 15:27:47 they are the important ones 15:28:00 sounds good to me 15:28:03 then people can contribute, but cannot create their own projects and use us as a hosting platform for their pet projects 15:28:08 let's start creating users for everybody that is asking for one 15:28:13 with those limitations you mention 15:28:29 external=True, project limit = 5, can create groups = False 15:28:50 yep 15:29:16 ahf: "lobby system" can you explain a little again how is that you are thinking about it? 15:29:30 sure 15:29:40 brb ~8m 15:29:50 the idea is that we don't want to open up gitlab's own sign-up form because it attracts so many spam users that it is insane 15:29:59 and we cannot enable any of the anti-spam features as a lot of our users are on via tor 15:30:09 and we don't want to give our users' IP to the external spam detection systems 15:30:11 so 15:30:26 instead we wanted to have a place where people can request an account and we can just "approve" it or "reject" it 15:30:54 right 15:31:04 additionally, once that is done, we want to have a way for "anonymous" users to submit tickets, that needs moderation, which each team that wants to accept anonymous tickets needs to come with a moderator of those 15:31:09 so this is a form where people request accounts 15:31:32 the beginning of it is here: https://gitlab.torproject.org/ahf/lobby but i had no time last week to do anything on it 15:33:12 Could we start a thread in the tor-internal@ or tor-project@ to talk about this lobby idea and see if anybody else have time to spend on it? 15:33:51 your idea is to have a form and then a list of requests. And when we approve a request then you use gitlab api to create the account? 15:33:54 back 15:34:01 i can have the user sign-up part ready this week. last time we talked about it we talked about having a user sign-up form ready before august 15:34:07 that is a bit the info i have used to prioritize this 15:34:15 correct gaba 15:34:24 ok 15:34:33 one idea that was mentioned for anonymous contributions was to shift that over to discourse as well 15:34:33 meanwhile we just create users for anybody asking for them. 15:34:37 yep 15:34:46 and last that was discussed on tor-project (i think) it was generally well received (again) 15:34:53 anarcat: yeah, that is why i think the first task i need to do is only the user sign-up 15:35:00 yeah 15:35:00 since i have no idea where the discource discussion is at right now 15:35:08 and i'm slightly ignoring it (i think it's a good idea though!) 15:35:23 i think the next step for discourse is to ask discoursehosting to set a real one up and start experimenting with tor-internal 15:35:30 but it's not on my plate 15:35:37 and i doubt hiro will have time to deal with it 15:35:43 i just wanted to surface that here :) 15:36:17 i wont be able to take that on me either. the gitlab stuff takes less and less time each week, but i am also 2 weeks at least behind on some other stuff 8) 15:36:23 the issue with discourse is that is just a forum for discussions 15:36:29 we need people to contribute in other ways too 15:36:30 maybe we wait with discource to we are back after the summer? 15:36:40 i think a lot of people are going AFK soon for vacation? 15:36:44 yes, we do not have capacity to take the discourse stuff 15:36:45 on the northern hemisphere 15:36:55 ggus will coordinate a discussion about it in the all hands this week though 15:37:00 ah 15:37:01 great 15:37:15 cool 15:37:26 the thing with discourse is we can just delegate hosting and admin to people like ggus 15:37:28 anyway, this works for me. I was worry we are not creating accounts for people that want them 15:37:29 so, we seem to agree to ignore that a bit for now and the important stuff is for users to be able to sign up? 15:37:36 yeah 15:37:37 gaba: yep 15:37:39 makes sense 15:37:44 anarcat: not so simple. ggus also does not have time for a lot more 15:37:52 ahf: right 15:37:54 gaba: i'll try to have a demo ready for us for the user-signup stuff then for tuesday next week 15:38:10 ok. i'm fine with the decisions for now :) 15:38:14 cool 15:38:37 anything else? 15:38:44 yes 15:38:47 i want to talk about documentation 15:39:06 anarcat: we can talk about wikis at other time when you are back. I created the gitlab wiki as a place to put the gitlab meeting notes... and linked your documentation 15:39:17 still i think we should have documentation related to a project in the same project 15:39:19 so i would rather avoid duplicating wikis like this 15:39:28 well i wanted to talk about that too 15:39:34 right now we're using labels for services 15:39:38 and are not creating projects for all services 15:39:48 so it would mean the gitlab project would fold back under the main team issue queue 15:39:55 which means the wiki would fold in as well 15:40:09 so that's why i would prefer to avoid creating another wiki that would need to get merged 15:40:25 i am worried that if we create a gitlab wiki, we will have two sources of truth for the documentation 15:40:37 i do not want to duplicate wikis 15:40:43 but i also want people to find the information 15:40:43 i'm sorry, i am a bit lost about this? is this something that have been discussed elsewhere? 15:40:52 and not have to navigate a lot of stuff to understand where the ifnormation is 15:41:07 ahf: not yet 15:41:08 ahf: the context is that i started documenting the gitlab migration and user stuff in https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/team/-/wikis/howto/gitlab/ 15:41:15 but i noticed gaba created https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/wikis/home 15:41:17 which seems like a duplicate 15:41:27 oh ok, i'm listening 15:41:35 and i want to resolve the duplicate :) 15:41:45 ah one is in team and the other is in gitlab. i see 15:41:45 there is no duplicate anarcat 15:41:50 ahf: there was also a discussion about moving the tpo/tpa/team issues into subprojects, which we seem to have decided against now 15:42:00 which would seem to imply that we move the gitlab project back under tpo/tpa/team 15:42:04 but we have a gitlab project 15:42:08 mmm 15:42:20 we are not going to move the gitlab project into tpo/tpa/team any time soon I think 15:42:29 gaba: i find it frustrating to not have my concerns recognized 15:42:41 gaba: i have the feeling that having https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/wikis/home and https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/team/-/wikis/howto/gitlab/ is a duplicate 15:42:45 now you can say it is not 15:42:48 splitting up tpa/team is possible if we want to do that. i'm okay with that but i am not going to make the call for that. i own such a tiny fraction of things in there that i'm ok with either 15:42:50 but it doesn't help resolve my concern :) 15:43:01 okay 15:43:07 what is your concern anarcat? 15:43:34 i am concerned that we will have two sources of truth for the documentation 15:43:46 i am also concerned to see all my work on the gitlab documentation be ignored and lost 15:43:59 anarcat: that happens if we duplicate that information in one place and the other. That is not the case right now. 15:44:12 gaba: but it's bound to happen if there is a gitlab wiki 15:44:13 anarcat: I promise not to ignore your documentation :) 15:44:17 okay 15:44:26 well i find the current situation confusing 15:44:33 with gitlab being this special snowflake 15:44:37 why doesn't gitolite have its own project? 15:44:50 i mean we have gitlab issues under tpo/tpa/team still 15:44:56 should those be moved inside the gitlab project? 15:45:12 i'm also not clear as to who's responsible for those tickets in the first place 15:45:42 but maybe i'm being too concerned about ticket management and documentation 15:46:00 i just feel i have been pushing that documentation wheel alone for weeks now 15:46:04 but, do you think tpa/team should be split up? 15:46:09 so it's a bit confusing to see a new wiki pop up 15:46:17 without any discussion or announcement 15:46:19 i hope you understand 15:46:24 ahf: i honestly don't know anymore 15:46:42 ahf: i'm kind of okay with the labels right now, i was told there weren't too many labels and i came to accept that 15:46:49 so i find it confusing that we still need a gitlab project in that context 15:46:58 because it feels like a contradiction 15:47:17 i couldnt find the documentation for gitlab this morning and was worry other people would not find it. I would thought it would be in the gitlab project. That is why i enabled a wiki in gitlab and added a link to your documentation there. 15:47:47 so the documentation for all services is in the team wiki of tpa 15:47:49 as we agreed 15:48:00 anarcat: i understand your concenrs and i think we all have been extremly busy and whenever we have gitlab stable we can easily change how issues of gitlab and gitolite are managed. maybe when you come back 15:48:03 hmmm, ok, i mean, i'm fine with merging gitlab into team and just have a label there 15:48:08 i have no onion about that 15:48:09 ugh 15:48:12 if you navigate to tpo / tpa, the homepage there is the wiki home, and it has a gitlab entry 15:48:12 opinion, work damage 15:48:17 i just do not think we should do it now 15:48:23 im ok to have it wherever 15:48:28 okay 15:48:52 if i go here it does not say anything on wikis: https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa 15:49:03 no 15:49:05 there is a team project 15:49:12 like there is in every other team 15:49:13 and i thought the team projects were going to be only for wikis about the team/space 15:49:14 that has the wiki 15:49:30 that is how we are doing it in other places 15:49:40 but the gitlab project is under the tpa team right now 15:49:50 maybe it should move out if you think it's not under the tpa umbrella? 15:49:56 anyways 15:50:02 i don't want to make a big fuss about this 15:50:13 it seems i'm having trouble bringing up issues and finding a common resolution 15:50:16 yes, i think we should think about this later whenever we have more time for this 15:50:22 hi, I have time to setup discourse if that's what we want 15:50:28 maybe what we could do is to take the user-facing documentation and move it out of the tpa wiki 15:50:28 it's not like I have to do it 15:50:38 I just have to send an email and ask the nice discourse people to help us 15:50:42 like everything in Tutorial and Howto in https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/team/-/wikis/howto/gitlab 15:50:50 sorry, i meant "move out to the gitlab wiki" 15:50:55 i can see the thing with either we have all the services in one project or we have all the services as individual projects, not now where all the services minus gitlab and then gitlab as projects 15:51:28 yeep 15:51:31 if we want discourse please open a ticket for me and I'll send the email tonight 15:51:40 anyways 15:51:50 as i said earlier, i don't have time to start new projects, i'm trying to wrap up 15:51:57 i was trying to identify what i think will be a problem 15:52:00 and will confuse users 15:52:15 hiro: wait, we are having that discussion in all hands this wednesday 15:52:16 if no one is interested in fixing this right now, there's nothing more i can do 15:52:27 i can look into this again in october or something 15:52:37 hiro: could we find a timeslot where we can look into the gitlab#41 thing? the network team folks are poking me about it 15:52:42 maybe at some point tomorrow? 15:52:50 yes ahf ok 15:52:57 we can do trial and error tomorrow 15:52:59 anarcat: i think we should look at it again in october 15:53:11 gaba: okay 15:53:30 gaba: may i ask where you plan on documenting the gitlab tickets you currently have? 15:53:42 in your tpa documentation 15:53:45 okay 15:54:07 you can also take the user-facing documentation from the tpa wiki and move it to the gitlab wiki if you think that will make it easier to find 15:54:54 i think it will be fine for now and i do not have so much capacity to move things 15:54:55 i'm done with my topic, sorry i brought it up 15:54:57 im trying to prioritize 15:54:59 hiro: any time that fits you best? 15:55:03 no problem 15:55:12 anything else? 4 min to the hour. 15:55:33 i'm good, i know what to look at the next week 15:55:48 sounds good 15:55:49 i might not be there next week at all 15:56:00 good luck with the gitlab maintenance! 15:56:13 good luck anarcat this week! 15:56:19 #endmeeting