17:59:12 <gaba> #startmeeting Browser June 22nd :) 17:59:12 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Jun 22 17:59:12 2020 UTC. The chair is gaba. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:59:12 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 17:59:23 <antonela> hello! 17:59:23 <acat> hi! 17:59:26 <gaba> meeting pad still in https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-tbb-2020-keep 17:59:30 <mcs> hi 17:59:32 <sysrqb> o/ 17:59:38 <ahf> o/ 18:05:26 <gaba> should we start? 18:05:37 <gaba> it seems that people are done adding statuses? 18:07:32 <sysrqb> i think yes 18:08:28 <sysrqb> hrm. busy week. 18:09:26 <gaba> let's talk about reviews in the second item 18:09:33 <gaba> first, do we have a TB release meeting tomorrow or not? 18:09:41 <sysrqb> yes, i think we should 18:09:50 <gaba> it was in the calendar 18:09:51 <gaba> ok 18:10:03 * gaba will send a mail to tor-project@ announcing it then 18:10:37 <gaba> Second item in the list of the agenda is gitlab 18:10:46 <gaba> how are people coordinating reviews? 18:11:06 <GeKo> i think it depends 18:11:25 <GeKo> there are older tickets in review 18:11:37 <GeKo> that is before the merge requests menthod 18:11:40 <GeKo> *method 18:11:50 <GeKo> and after that got enabled 18:11:54 <GeKo> (which was today) 18:12:08 <GeKo> and it seems we need different processes for that 18:12:36 <ahf> or ask people to create MR's 18:12:50 <GeKo> we could do that 18:13:02 <GeKo> i think we should try to avoid "Needs Review" where we can 18:13:20 <gaba> ok 18:13:23 <ahf> +1, the network team is trying to figure out how w edo that, because we still depend on CI on github :-/ it is a bit messy right now 18:13:30 <GeKo> i was trying to make that point in https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/issues/28#note_2679539 18:13:36 <gaba> network team is using needs review and then assigning it with a group label review::person 18:13:54 <GeKo> that's what i like to avoid at least 18:13:56 <GeKo> :) 18:13:59 <gaba> ok :) 18:14:03 <GeKo> because of label creep and such 18:14:11 <sysrqb> if a patch should be rebased, then we can use a MR for the new branch 18:14:13 <GeKo> but maybe other folks have differnt opinions 18:14:38 <acat> GeKo: at least for #33533 it's not possible to do a MR, so maybe we keep needs_review only for those cases (legacy process)? 18:14:48 <GeKo> yep 18:14:51 <sysrqb> for existing tickets/patches in newds_review, i think we should look at those individually and review them using the old process 18:14:57 <GeKo> that sounds like a good trade-off to me 18:15:18 <gaba> ok 18:15:26 <sysrqb> and by "rebased", i don't mean #33533 :) 18:15:35 <gaba> labels, not sure if you all are coordinating on labels. We sent a mail on Thursday about it 18:15:47 <sysrqb> i started looking at that earlier today 18:15:48 <GeKo> i was going over our labels over the weekend 18:15:53 <sysrqb> we'll coordinate 18:15:58 <GeKo> and have some ideas here 18:16:00 <sysrqb> ah.okay, GeKo is looking at it 18:16:06 <GeKo> we can both 18:16:10 <GeKo> or just you 18:16:17 <ahf> nickm's tool is worth looking at too - it was just applied to the core/* files 18:16:21 <gaba> ok 18:16:24 <GeKo> i just want to avoid this alling through the cracks 18:16:35 <sysrqb> yep 18:16:37 <GeKo> and above all getting rid of old labels 18:16:43 <GeKo> *off 18:16:56 <GeKo> which we needed due to a trac workflow 18:17:14 <sysrqb> yes 18:17:20 <GeKo> sysrqb: so, maybe you look to and then we sync some time this week 18:17:24 <GeKo> ? 18:17:33 <GeKo> (before thursday) 18:17:53 <GeKo> *look too 18:18:04 <sysrqb> okay, we can try this plan 18:18:17 <GeKo> or wahtever works for you 18:18:33 <ahf> if you get stressed about the deadline then just let me know - we can apply to the other subprojects on thursday if you need a bit longer. i just try to set a time to get people started 18:18:39 <gaba> how are we doing with tickets on s58? I will have stuff organized into a milestone soon. For now everything is under sponso58 label 18:18:41 <ahf> and it will make searches a lot faster 18:19:04 <gaba> ahf: let's not try to be flexible here on that deadline :) 18:19:23 <ahf> oki :-) 18:19:36 <GeKo> sysrqb: the gitlab comment posted above might be worth reading for you, too 18:19:44 <sysrqb> i may ask for an extension, though 18:19:50 <sysrqb> GeKo: i have it open in a tab, now 18:20:01 <GeKo> as it gives more context for what i might say about the labeling 18:20:06 <GeKo> ok 18:20:08 <sysrqb> thanks 18:20:27 <GeKo> gaba: there are plenty of tickets to include :) 18:20:33 <gaba> yes 18:20:35 <sysrqb> ahf: we'll try our best to get this ready before thursday 18:20:40 <ahf> sounds good 18:20:48 <gaba> I will have s58 organized in gitlab for next meeting 18:20:55 <sysrqb> but with everything happening this week,it may be a little dificult 18:20:55 <gaba> so far how are we doing with the stuff for this week? 18:21:01 <GeKo> i like the idea of all tickets in the milestone being the must ones for teh sponsor 18:21:16 <GeKo> while "Sponsor 58" includes those and which we could think of working on 18:21:22 <gaba> yes 18:21:35 <GeKo> that way we can acoid "-must "", and "-can" 18:21:38 <GeKo> *avoid 18:21:49 <GeKo> which seems smart 18:22:03 <sysrqb> that sounds reasonable to me 18:22:29 * antonela "a brand new Safari, with intelligent anti tracking protection" 18:22:42 <sysrqb> but i'll read tpo/tpa/gitlab#28 18:23:27 * gaba too 18:23:55 <sysrqb> blog moderation? 18:24:03 <gaba> sure 18:24:08 <antonela> i left you in the release blogpost sysrqb :( 18:24:23 <antonela> maybe after a week we can close comments? 18:24:52 <sysrqb> that is one possible policy 18:25:07 <sysrqb> recently i began closing comments on the previous blog post when a new one is released 18:25:19 <sysrqb> and this provides a channel for reporting bugs between releases 18:25:19 <GeKo> the problem with that is that comments then often come up int differnt blog posts 18:25:27 <GeKo> because folks often don't go away 18:25:59 <GeKo> and folks monitoring those blog posts are not happy 18:26:05 <antonela> but we cannot hold them hand for ever GeKo 18:26:09 <GeKo> because now they have to deal with browser questions 18:26:09 <antonela> like we are working here 18:26:15 <GeKo> yes 18:26:17 <GeKo> look 18:26:47 <GeKo> i don't find it unreasonable to just not allow comments for tor browser blog entries right now 18:26:58 <GeKo> due to capacity problems 18:27:00 <GeKo> :) 18:27:14 <antonela> i mean, if is painful for me dealing with conspirationist, i think is more useful for the project to keep my working hours doing a different thing than replying people in the blog 18:27:15 <GeKo> i am just saying that this and similar strategies have drwabacks 18:27:33 <antonela> right, and probably killing comments after some days is just enough 18:27:34 <sysrqb> maybe we have a policy that all blog posts have closed comments 18:27:45 <GeKo> sysrqb: yep 18:27:47 <sysrqb> except the friday blog post where people can post quetions/comments/etc 18:27:54 <GeKo> i'd be onboard with that 18:27:56 <sysrqb> and that is where we answer questions 18:28:00 <antonela> but then, you want to use a blog entry for support desk 18:28:17 <sysrqb> anonymous support desk...yes 18:28:17 <antonela> i dont see a difference :) 18:28:19 <sysrqb> it is shitty 18:28:19 <antonela> but lets seee 18:29:16 <GeKo> the blog folks report valid bugs 18:29:28 <antonela> yes, mostly the firsts days 18:29:34 <GeKo> but i have not seens a single bug in months that would make it onto our todo list 18:29:35 <GeKo> right now 18:29:39 <GeKo> *seen 18:29:52 <GeKo> because we have this s58 thing and the transition 18:29:57 <GeKo> to esr78 18:29:59 <antonela> not true, mcs and brade fixed reported bugs i manually opened after 9.5 release 18:30:11 <GeKo> yes 18:30:16 <antonela> reported from the useful blogpost commentors 18:30:20 <GeKo> i mean for the upcoming work 18:30:24 <antonela> ah yes 18:30:56 <GeKo> which makes it extra hard to explain why we tend to blog comments at the moment 18:31:13 <GeKo> given the pile of unsolved issues to get fenix and tor browser 10 going 18:31:43 <antonela> im happy to reply comments and open tickets for two max three days 18:31:57 <antonela> more is insane given our capacity 18:32:12 <GeKo> one thing i wondered whether nicolei could help here 18:32:18 <acat> i can try also to moderate blog comments if needed 18:32:26 <sysrqb> but, somehow, we should prevent tor browser comments on other blog posts after three days 18:32:41 <GeKo> they are already collecting all sorts of users feedback things 18:33:10 <GeKo> but that comes with a learning curve too if it works well... 18:33:20 <antonela> you may want to check with ggus their capacity 18:33:28 <GeKo> yeah 18:33:30 <antonela> they are replying RT tickets the entire day 18:33:39 <acat> right now it's not possible for users to report bugs via gitlab, right? 18:33:45 <ahf> not yet, no 18:33:59 <ahf> permissions are an unsolved issue right now and we want to do that before opening up 18:34:00 <GeKo> i think my sympathy right now is to just disable comments and that would mean for all blog posts 18:34:07 <GeKo> (all regular ones) 18:34:24 <GeKo> but that#s a project decision to make 18:34:29 <GeKo> so, dunno 18:34:31 <antonela> but even gitlab is looking to enabling support desk for community editions (seems like something around it is happening) which probably will improve the entire flow 18:35:08 <antonela> https://about.gitlab.com/stages-devops-lifecycle/service-desk/ 18:35:34 <antonela> and for sure the moderation will be better, let see if it reaches the ce version 18:36:17 <sysrqb> i can send an email to tor-project@ and we can discuss this 18:36:38 <sysrqb> because people stop moderating other blog posts after a few days (or week), too 18:36:50 <antonela> isn't phw's thread the one we are discussing this? 18:38:30 <sysrqb> but that is focused on an everything-goes post 18:38:37 <sysrqb> not disabling comments on all other posts 18:38:41 <antonela> right 18:38:55 <sysrqb> one concern i have is whether we have an alternative for reporting bugs 18:39:03 <sysrqb> is RT a good replacement? 18:39:05 <ggus> hey! 18:39:12 <antonela> o/ 18:39:24 <sysrqb> o/ 18:39:27 <ggus> i missed the context that you're discussing 18:39:28 <ggus> o/ 18:39:49 <ggus> how to report bugs about tor browser? 18:39:59 <GeKo> sysrqb: irc! :) 18:40:51 <sysrqb> GeKo: yeah. i suppose we can try that 18:41:03 <sysrqb> i mean, people already use that 18:41:11 <GeKo> yep 18:41:13 <sysrqb> but i don't know if that is a good replacement for blog comments 18:41:24 <GeKo> it's not 18:41:39 <GeKo> but it's hard to find one 18:41:45 <GeKo> which does not cause additional load 18:41:52 <sysrqb> yeah 18:42:06 <sysrqb> maybe i'll fork phw's thread 18:42:12 <sysrqb> and we can discuss this project-wide 18:42:25 <GeKo> ggus: we were thinking about proposing to disable all blog comments 18:42:27 <GeKo> for now 18:42:27 <sysrqb> because this needs buy-in from everyone 18:42:41 <GeKo> because we ca't handle the load right now 18:42:46 <GeKo> *can't 18:43:06 <GeKo> and then we wonderedd how folks would report (tor browser) bugs 18:43:13 <ggus> hum 18:43:20 <GeKo> sysrqb: sounds like a plan 18:44:09 <gaba> ok. next one is dev.tpo content from antonela 18:44:17 <gaba> unless there is something else about blog moderation :) 18:44:29 <sysrqb> not from me. i'll take that as my next-step 18:44:36 <GeKo> ggus: the problem is that just disabling comments on tor-browser blog posts will make other teams unhappy :) 18:44:47 * GeKo is done here, too 18:44:55 <ggus> GeKo: what about opening the issues in github and then close it when we fixed the gitlab permissions? 18:45:34 <ggus> we also could use a form to report bugs, but people like to see if the bug was already submitted 18:45:43 <GeKo> dunno 18:45:59 <GeKo> we could think about that in the forked thread sysrqbis about to start 18:46:07 <GeKo> *sysrqb is 18:46:09 <gaba> I say let's bring this discussion to the mailing list and maybe to Wednesday's all hands 18:46:26 <GeKo> yep 18:46:35 <ggus> ok! just to let you know that Nicolei's internship goes til august. after that we're uncovered (at the moment). 18:46:48 <GeKo> i see 18:47:01 <gaba> ok 18:47:07 <antonela> something nice i did in a old company was having people sitting in frontdesk a morning per week 18:47:21 <gaba> antonela: do you want to talk about which feedback you want on dev.tpo? 18:47:41 <gaba> +1 to do frontdesk work once in a while for everybody :) 18:47:45 <antonela> so this is extremely useful, because everybody in the company was aware about the issues customers were facing 18:48:03 <antonela> if we organize ourselves we can maybe build capacity for support 18:48:04 <ahf> we will have a solution for issues, both account creation and anonymous before august 18:48:20 <ahf> unles some epic bikeshedding happens 18:48:37 <sysrqb> heh. 18:48:41 <ggus> nice! :) 18:48:51 <antonela> gaba: yes, about dev.tpo, i made a first approach on the content we want to have there. Please, let me know what do you think, if i missing anything and most better if i missed anything, link me to the current content 18:48:51 <sysrqb> i like the idea of rotations, too. 18:49:37 <sysrqb> antonela: thanks 18:49:40 <sysrqb> exciting 18:49:46 <antonela> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/web/trac/-/issues/24132 18:49:57 <antonela> this is the issue, scroll down 18:50:15 <antonela> i made a md so is easy for anyone to propose a new structure or add content 18:50:22 <antonela> feel free to do it, i'll have it open the next two weeks 18:50:41 <antonela> thanks!! 18:50:49 <sysrqb> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/web/trac/-/issues/24132#note_2681345 18:51:05 <antonela> ^^^ 18:52:19 <sysrqb> do we have any other discussion items for today's meeting? 18:52:27 <sysrqb> i don't see any on the pad 18:53:01 * ahf good 18:53:08 <GeKo> antonela: i guess we discuss the ux labels during the label sync 18:53:12 <GeKo> would that work for you? 18:53:24 <antonela> yes, is great 18:53:29 <antonela> thanks for looking at the ticket! 18:53:30 <GeKo> (it seems we did not address that point from teh pad yet) 18:53:38 <sysrqb> ah, yes, we did skip that 18:53:40 <GeKo> sure 18:53:42 <antonela> is fine if you go over hte ticket tho 18:54:45 <gaba> mmm, i thought the ux labels was in the same topic 18:54:57 <gaba> ok 18:54:59 <gaba> anything else? 18:55:07 <gaba> anything people need help with ? 18:55:37 <antonela> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/anti-censorship/trac/-/issues/40004 18:55:38 <antonela> still waits for review 18:55:48 <antonela> mcs, brade, GeKo, sysrqb, acat please take a look 18:55:55 <sysrqb> si 18:56:00 <antonela> <3 18:57:23 <GeKo> end of june you said, right? 18:57:24 <sysrqb> okay, good? 18:57:34 <antonela> ohh one more thing, we can discuss the tba alpha releases through the google play flow during the release meeting 18:57:40 <antonela> (that is all, promise) 18:57:55 <antonela> is not a question, is more a reminder lol 18:58:09 <gaba> ok 18:58:22 <gaba> let's close the meeting now and conversation can continue in other channel 18:58:25 <gaba> #endmeeting