13:59:51 <antonela> #startmeeting ux team
13:59:51 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Nov 26 13:59:51 2019 UTC.  The chair is antonela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:59:51 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:59:54 <antonela> hello folks!
14:00:09 <antonela> thanks for being around, another ux team meeting this week :)
14:00:37 <antonela> please fill the regular pad with your items and/or items for discussion https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-ux-team-2019-keep
14:05:00 <antonela> okey, lets start
14:05:32 <pili> hi
14:05:33 <antonela> I added the two letterboxing tickets to the agenda
14:05:35 <pili> sorry I'm late
14:05:40 <antonela> hi pili!
14:05:50 <thurayya> i was just looking at the letterboxing comments
14:05:52 <antonela> #32324 and #/32325
14:05:57 <antonela> #32325
14:06:16 <antonela> yes, thanks all for left comments there! we got really good conversations
14:06:17 <thurayya> couldn't see your mocks on #32324
14:06:44 <antonela> here nah https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/attachment/ticket/32324/32324.png
14:07:30 <thurayya> thanks
14:07:31 <thurayya> :)
14:07:40 <antonela> so, for the first ticket we are trying to find a solution that also works when the letterboxing margins are small
14:08:07 <antonela> i'm not sure how to approach it but i'm sure that opening a popup is not the best idea
14:09:49 <antonela> any idea around it is welcome to the ticket
14:09:59 <antonela> the second ticket is #32325
14:10:02 <thurayya> antonela: a popup opening itself? or a popup after the user clicking the margins?
14:10:04 <antonela> thanks diogosergio for working on it!
14:10:24 <antonela> thurayya: neither of those if is posible
14:10:35 <thurayya> hmmm
14:11:13 <diogosergio> Can we use those popovers with steps and cta to read more?
14:12:03 <antonela> i think we can have an explainer at the onboarding which shows them and when margins are big enough we show the [?] icon
14:12:19 <antonela> that is something that could work
14:12:43 <antonela> so for #32325 we need some content review
14:13:04 <antonela> your mockups are great diogosergio, i also think that we should move it to privacy&security since is not a Tor strictly related feature
14:13:30 <diogosergio> yeah, makes sense
14:13:48 <antonela> also the check could be [ ] Allow Letterboxing
14:15:09 <diogosergio> yeah, should we keep the (recommended)?
14:15:28 <antonela> if we dont have other customization options, it seems redundant
14:15:58 <thurayya> i wouldn't use it unless it was recommended
14:16:08 <thurayya> :(
14:16:25 <antonela> thats true
14:16:42 <diogosergio> its still something we recommend you turn on (although its on by default)
14:16:45 <antonela> this is why we enabled it by default, maybe
14:17:08 <thurayya> yes, agreed. but i think if the user goes there to uncheck
14:17:24 <thurayya> maybe the "recommended"
14:17:35 * thurayya thinking
14:18:01 <diogosergio> i think its a nice nudge to turn it on, or dont turn it off..
14:19:50 <thurayya> ^ yes
14:20:16 <antonela> okey i just commented to the ticket
14:20:29 <antonela> we can keep the recommended, it works for me
14:20:43 <antonela> again, thanks diogosergio for working on it!
14:20:58 <antonela> anything else _around_ letterboxing?
14:22:02 <antonela> next item is also mine but maybe we should talk about it during the triage next week?
14:22:13 <antonela> #32460
14:22:28 <pili> ok
14:22:32 <T__> Hi all!
14:22:40 <pili> fwiw I think people also find it confusing without the banner
14:22:47 <antonela> some users have expressed concerns about the download page, im fine iterating it but first i'd like to have some kind of analytics running there
14:23:04 <antonela> what do they find confusing pili?
14:23:14 <pili> they don't understand the icons
14:23:15 <antonela> hey T__ nice to see you around :)
14:23:19 <pili> for the different OSs
14:23:38 <antonela> i see, do we need labels? do we need to remove the icons and have a list?
14:23:40 <pili> one interesting metric we could find is how many clicks on the download button in the banner
14:23:49 <pili> versus how many total clicks on the icons
14:23:52 <antonela> which banner?
14:24:00 <pili> sorry, not banner in the landing page
14:24:22 <pili> so if we have a lot of clicks to go to the download page but they don't translate to actual downloads then we can see how widespread the problem is
14:24:35 <antonela> yes, a classic funnel flow might be smart
14:24:44 <pili> because I think the feedback is that people expect the download to start when they click the link in the landing page
14:24:53 <antonela> and we can do that
14:24:58 <antonela> but we dont because privacy
14:25:09 <pili> we can just look at numbers
14:25:14 <pili> we don't need to track
14:25:39 <diogosergio> Possibly just including a download cta bellow the icons would help to prompt them to action
14:25:51 <pili> that is the diference between clicks on www.torproject.org/download and the sum of actual downloads for each of the operating systems
14:25:55 <antonela> yes yes, but i mean, we can start a download in the first click with the right os and locale version (like other browsers download pages)
14:26:06 <pili> not ah
14:26:15 <pili> s/not/
14:26:25 <pili> yup
14:26:49 <antonela> afaik is a decision not doing it
14:26:58 <pili> right
14:26:59 <antonela> but hey, im fine on improving this flow, for sure
14:27:08 <diogosergio> we have the download action hidden behind the icons, its not clear. if you include a download cta prompts users to download
14:27:25 <antonela> diogosergio agreed, we can have a download on each of them
14:27:38 <pili> I'm not saying we should change it just that we can try to get some numbers on the extent of the problem by comparing those numbers
14:28:18 <antonela> related on that, hiro has been thinking about https://dip.torproject.org/torproject/web/tpo/issues/22
14:28:23 <thurayya> pili: i think a lot of ppl clicks on 'sig' too, thinking it's going to download, b/c they are not used to check sigs
14:28:31 <antonela> thurayya: true
14:28:58 <antonela> that reinforces the idea of people expecting a download button
14:30:25 <thurayya> as you said
14:30:28 <thurayya> labelling might help: windows | sig
14:30:54 <antonela> maybe we can triage this ticket with others website related tickets and also clean trac from new tickets and move them to dip
14:31:17 <pili> sure
14:31:55 <diogosergio> should we include some pointers on how to verify sig? its common just to show the sig, but people dont see the value
14:32:11 <diogosergio> or dont understand
14:32:18 <diogosergio> but thats another matter
14:32:19 <antonela> yes we should and also we should be consistent in the way we are talking about them
14:32:41 <antonela> there is an updated entry in the support portal about it if i recall correctly
14:33:12 <antonela> which we should link somehow to help people to do it
14:33:32 <diogosergio> yes, that would be ideal
14:33:36 <antonela> (maybe near to the signature file)
14:33:37 <antonela> https://support.torproject.org/tbb/how-to-verify-signature/
14:33:44 <antonela> we have it now but quite below
14:35:15 <diogosergio> moving it up would be already an improvement, making it more contextual
14:36:27 <antonela> yep
14:37:01 <antonela> oki, anything else on it? which are the next steps?
14:37:27 <antonela> maybe someone wants to work on the next iteration, im happy to share the editable files for mockups but also PRs are good for it
14:37:42 <thurayya> do we have a way to check if this hypothesis is true? to see if ppl are clicking else where?
14:38:05 <diogosergio> I would be  happy to look into the next iteration
14:38:33 <antonela> thurayya: maybe having some minimum analytics in place to get more insights or running a short sprint of research for it
14:38:50 <antonela> diogosergio: awesome, ping me at the ux channel after this meeting so i can share those with you
14:38:59 * diogosergio thumbs up
14:39:04 * antonela cant wait for the day were all those files are already somewhere
14:39:44 <thurayya> having some analytics would be good :)
14:39:59 <thurayya> also, i saw it happening in some of the trainings
14:40:47 <antonela> maybe we want to focus on the download flow with partners?
14:40:50 <antonela> that could be interesting
14:41:08 <antonela> because is a very easy interview and we also are doing it as part of needs discovery
14:41:33 <thurayya> good idea! gonna add this to our partner that will run a training in a couple of weeks
14:42:54 <diogosergio> what do you guys mean by partner/training?
14:43:39 <antonela> we are running this program in the global south were internet freedom organizations host tor related trainings and we also run user research
14:44:16 <diogosergio> ah okay, that sounds great
14:45:34 <antonela> thurayya: awesome, lets make the docs and add them to the repo and link from there
14:46:03 <antonela> thurayya: im setting up the new nc instance, so some links may be broken -- expect some invites to the new one this week
14:46:12 <antonela> okey, anything else on the download page?
14:46:15 <diogosergio> should I wait for that? or can I do those small improvements?
14:46:26 <antonela> diogosergio: you can!
14:46:31 <antonela> we can work in parallel
14:46:36 <diogosergio> sounds good
14:46:40 <antonela> great
14:46:44 <antonela> the last item is also mine
14:46:48 <thurayya> antonela: thanks!
14:46:55 <antonela> pili, do you have any other ux-team ticket that should make the next release?
14:47:14 <antonela> i didnt look at the onboarding one but i'll do
14:47:15 <antonela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/query?status=accepted&status=assigned&status=merge_ready&status=needs_information&status=needs_review&status=needs_revision&status=new&status=reopened&keywords=~TorBrowserTeam201911%2C+ux-team&order=priority
14:47:24 <pili> I don't think so, we should discuss tomorrow during the release meeting
14:47:26 <diogosergio> oh! i've a ticket I looked into briefly
14:47:30 <antonela> we are working on letterboxing and also i've already reviewed the onion auth with acat
14:47:35 <diogosergio> #32118
14:47:39 <T__> Please I'd like to give updates on my ICFP research, if there's some time. Sorry didn't include this in the meeting notes
14:47:41 <antonela> pili: yes but any ticket we should bring there?
14:47:56 <pili> my priority are the S27 ones
14:48:08 <pili> so we can have something tangible to show
14:48:28 <pili> other than that I think we're good
14:48:31 <antonela> diogosergio: oh nice, i'll drop a comment there
14:48:39 <antonela> pili: ok, so lets see in the next meeting whats comes up
14:48:48 <pili> yup :)
14:48:53 <antonela> T__: sure, go for it
14:49:52 <T__> I've been recruiting interviewees for the research, and I'm finding about 3 different types of circumvention tool users:
14:50:16 <T__> 1. Those who use it to access censored/blocked content
14:50:42 <T__> 2. Those who use it access content not blocked but want to do so anonymously
14:51:04 <T__> 3. Those who want to access commercially blocked content
14:52:01 <T__> It's been revealing
14:52:30 <antonela> thats great T__
14:52:46 <T__> The first group access politically blocked websites, the third commercial websites
14:52:55 <pili> interesting :)
14:53:03 <T__> I wonder if the last group are relevant?
14:53:10 <pili> which countries is this in?
14:53:19 <pili> are you able to say? :)
14:53:22 <emmapeel> i am on the last group sometimes :D
14:53:23 <antonela> do you want to share those intermediate findings with the ux mailing list?
14:53:44 <T__> I've been recruiting in Nigeria and Cameroon for now, I'll commence for Uganda and Zimbabwe next month
14:53:55 <antonela> i've been on the 3 groups, yes :)
14:53:56 <thurayya> T__: do they also use vpn, or vpn+tor? do they have concerns about it? (it's just a curiosity)
14:55:20 <T__> Thurayya: I've not delved into asking what particular tool they use
14:55:31 <T__> Antonela: Sure
14:55:54 <antonela> awesome
14:56:23 <antonela> anything else T__?
14:57:43 <antonela> i remember we talked about putting you in contact with people from some country but i dont remember where do you need support
14:57:54 <antonela> could you email me about it so we can add ggus to the loop?
14:58:17 <antonela> maybe after the countries change, this is not an issue anymore :)
14:58:24 <antonela> anyways, let me know T__
14:58:35 <antonela> i should end this meeting
14:58:40 <antonela> thanks folks!
14:58:51 <antonela> is a pleasure being here <3
14:59:03 <thurayya> o/ :)
14:59:08 <T__> So I've figured it's better for me to look for new personae, than using Tor's networks
14:59:09 <pili> thank you!!
14:59:14 <T__> Deepens the research
14:59:15 <diogosergio> thanks all
14:59:18 <T__> Thanks!
14:59:21 <antonela> #endmeeting