13:58:42 #startmeeting ux team 13:58:42 Meeting started Tue Feb 12 13:58:42 2019 UTC. The chair is antonela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 13:58:42 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 13:58:44 hello folks! 13:58:49 full room, thank you! 13:58:57 wassup 13:59:14 another ux meeting this week, lets add the updates into the pad first 13:59:24 https://storm.torproject.org/shared/SUX4RJAoNxYPYIOEbYO9RBu9MTPK1Q_mCCeLLgRHi_o 14:00:14 if you have topics to discuss, please add those in the agenda 14:00:25 lets start with the mainstream 14:00:48 i sent yesterday a QA call to tor internal for the new tpo.org website, THANKS EVERYBODY 14:01:03 we got some tickets, i got a ton of emails 14:01:16 i tried to sovle the small correctins today 14:01:20 solve 14:01:24 the nicknames etc 14:01:28 yes, thanks emmapeel! 14:02:10 hiro, can we sync about that query arma1 shared with us and see what is doable for this release and what we should move to the next one? 14:02:25 yep ok sounds good 14:02:26 and also, what about to have website issues in github? cc/pili hiro 14:02:34 we can do that 14:02:38 hey all 14:02:41 yo gus! 14:02:41 hello AlonBR! you made it :D 14:02:42 as long as people are happy to file there 14:03:01 I've added some things to the pad for tpo (mostly responsive issues) but I've still got a bunch of stuff to add, will try and get that finished today 14:03:08 on the whole it looks great though! 14:03:10 is more about our internal workflow and how we can enable external collab 14:03:16 dunqan: thanks a lot! <3 14:03:24 pili: I think people can fire tickets on trac and we use github for ourselves? 14:03:31 sure 14:03:38 there is still stuff at https://pad.riseup.net/p/tpo-ui-review-keep 14:03:50 so we create github issue that could group several trac tickets 14:03:59 hiro, yes, that is what i mean 14:04:05 nice 14:04:19 no worries! I can spin up a VM if you're ready for me to check IE/Edge hiro? Firefox/Tor/Chrome seemed really consistent 14:04:24 and, like the network team, start to move "small" projects to github and feel that workflow 14:04:52 +1 14:04:55 dunqan sounds good 14:05:07 GREAT, we have a plan for all that thingsssss 14:05:14 I can start doing that: group trac tickets into tasks/projects 14:05:21 as a github issue 14:05:28 super pili, help is appreciated at any point :D 14:05:38 that's what I'm here for :D 14:06:05 pili https://github.com/torproject/tpo 14:06:08 here is the repo ^ 14:06:34 thanks 14:06:51 do you want me to just stick to the pad for now antonela? 14:07:14 dunqan, yes, i will do the same what pili is doing and merge those in some github tickets 14:07:26 gotcha, thanks 14:07:37 the best part is that we can accept PRs !! 14:08:13 okey, anything else tpo next-steps-workflow-related? 14:08:48 hiro: do you know how to enable projects on the tpo repo? 14:08:52 in github? 14:08:58 uhm 14:08:59 Go to Settings 14:09:01 you can't ? 14:09:02 they're enabled at the organisation level it seems 14:09:10 I can't see the projects tab for tpo repo 14:09:12 You have to be an Admin of that repo 14:09:22 maybe you aren't even on the team 14:09:25 let me see 14:09:39 (but maybe we can take this "offline") 14:09:57 jiji 14:10:02 nothing happens offline 14:10:08 So excited to see some UX stuff happening on GitHub :slightly_smiling_face: 14:10:22 me too elioqoshi 14:10:29 AlonBR: raise your hand if you are here o/ 14:10:33 elioqoshi: we'll slowly pull people that way... kicking and screaming :D 14:10:58 huehuehue 14:11:04 i dont want to work for bill gates! 14:11:15 I'm here! 14:11:22 haha hello Alon! 14:11:32 Hi there 14:11:45 people Alon is the illustrator of the illos we have at our TB onboarding and he will be helping us on the illos for tpo.org too 14:12:17 as we signed internally, he will join us on our open meetings to collect feedback in real time and we will work on the iterations between this meetings and our friday website syncs 14:12:23 Nice! Great to meet you Alon! 14:12:27 hi Alon! 14:12:45 welcome AlonBR ! 14:12:45 welcome! 14:12:47 Alon is awesome and you can see more of his work here https://dribbble.com/AlonBraier or here https://www.behance.net/alonbraier 14:12:49 Hi everyone! glad to meet you all 14:13:05 Shalom Alon! 14:13:28 Shalom Shalom! :) 14:14:22 okey, first ideas/concepts for main tpo.org illos are here https://share.riseup.net/#CKyekx8I2OfcRBQ6dioJtg 14:14:45 those are going to be placed in the gray circles we have at https://lektor-staging.torproject.org/tpo/staging/ 14:15:10 i would like all of you, and comms and fundraising teams are here too, to review it and talk a bit about those concepts 14:15:44 There are very rough sketches...just to get the idea trough 14:16:45 Interesting concepts. I'm not sure if I get the fingerprinting idea though 14:16:46 here is the list of metaphors and concepts we have been collected https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/194n8DOj2PPRjetvxGYDQ61drkyIAvl96JiVGuDbokvg/edit?usp=sharing 14:16:55 Has it to do with fingerprints on glasses in bars? 14:16:58 Can you talk about the ideas you're trying to get through with "multilayered encryption"? 14:17:43 I really like bicycle concept! 14:17:53 * isabela wave o/ 14:17:57 +1 on the bicycle! 14:17:58 i see the invisible cape a nice metaphor for defending surveillance, block trackers and browse freely are also great 14:17:59 Yeah would be great to know more about the thinking behind the trackers, fingerprinting and encryption concepts (love your work btw alon!) 14:18:06 i also think the browse freely bike works well, but i am not sure about the others 14:18:14 Bicycle and surveillance seem spot on! 14:18:17 What would we think of a unicycle concept though? Or is that less recognizable? 14:18:33 let's not muddy the waters 14:18:36 fingerprinting and multilayer encryption is really hard! 14:18:42 So for MULTI-LAYERED ENCRYPTION - A character doing a relaxed everyday activity, like reading a newspaper on a beach Chair or walking a dog - divided to many parts of the same character 14:18:49 I assume that in "resist fingerprinting" all the characters have the same face? 14:18:59 or the same hat gus1 14:19:00 ahhhhhhhh Alon I don't think that comes through 14:19:00 antonela: i like the cape too - i had a cape that would block heat scanner from reading your body temperature 14:19:05 hehe 14:19:10 hehe yes 14:19:16 lets think about layered encryption 14:19:20 I am also not sure that is the value proposition people get out of "multi-layered encryption"? 14:19:25 is the hardest one i think 14:19:28 I was thinking almost like a mummy :) 14:19:29 something wrapped in many layers 14:19:34 ooohhh 14:19:35 I've always liked TunnelBear's take on that 14:19:38 that is great pili 14:19:38 maybe with a lock closing the layers 14:19:40 after reading the google doc i understand better the fingerprint one 14:19:41 yeah or layers of armor 14:19:42 but yeah is a hard one 14:19:50 gus1:+1 14:19:59 like people with a lot layers of clothes 14:20:05 yeah 14:20:07 antonela: yup, also 14:20:15 yeah 14:20:22 https://dribbble.com/search?q=multi+layer+encryption -- NOTHING lol 14:20:22 yep, makes sense if it's an individual behind multiple layers of something 14:20:30 clothes/walls/windows etc. 14:20:42 ooh maybe walls 14:20:42 I assume that in "resist fingerprinting" all the characters have the same face? --- yes! like that scene in "Being John Malkovich" 14:20:45 This is more cliche but anyway: How about a door with 3 (or more) locked bolts? 14:21:06 nice I like that idea AlonBR. Needs to come through more clearly than in the sketch but I'm guessing you'll make that happen 14:21:16 elioqoshi, is great, but i like the idea of the overlap 14:21:26 and the clothing idea from pili is nice and very relatable 14:21:28 the other thing could be like a rubiks cube that's jumbled up 14:21:54 i like the clothing idea 14:22:02 like something to get across the idea of scrambling pili? 14:22:08 <+antonela> like people with a lot layers of clothes - nice! 14:22:12 dunqan: yup 14:22:21 but maybe that's a nice metaphor for something else 14:22:35 i dont know if i understand block trackers one 14:23:16 rubiks cube that's jumbled up is pretty cool 14:23:38 Hello. I'm a UX person. I met Antonela at a recent conference. 14:23:41 yes, the rubiks is smart 14:23:52 hello toast_[m] o/ 14:23:56 'ello toast_[m] 14:24:04 hi toast! 14:24:04 but the rubik is not multilayered, right? 14:24:16 With both Rubiks and unicycle I worry about universality/localization 14:24:21 emmapeel: you right, is just 'encrypted'? 14:24:25 yeah 14:24:30 for block trackers – were we trying to avoid the shield metaphor? 14:24:32 i dont get the rubiks w/ multilayer 14:24:37 dunqan, yes please 14:24:37 i.e. because it's overused? 14:24:38 As a layperson I think multi-layered encryption is about multiple different ways of securing something so I think a chain link fence and a dog and a safe! :) 14:25:44 toast_[m]: :D 14:25:46 Is the layers as important as the tripple secure concept? 14:25:47 I have searched for images of "multilayered things" and found cakes 14:25:52 also sandwiches 14:25:54 hahaha 14:26:06 i like the clothing idea for it 14:26:11 I mean the onion is already multiple layers... 14:26:14 for block trackers - why not a illustration of a 'tracker character' being blocked somehow? instead of the character covering themselves 14:26:21 idk 14:26:39 maybe we can have patterns on each layer which recalls to encryption 14:26:43 For BLOCK TRACKERS i think I didn't quite get this feature until now so you can ignore the umbrella guy 14:26:58 ahhh okaydokes 14:27:11 AlonBR: oki 14:27:28 the other thing for block trackers could be someone with a magnifying glass (like a detective) following some footprints and suddenly they come up against a wall 14:27:29 or the footprints disappear 14:27:30 or something 14:27:56 <_oftc_pili "the other thing for block tracke"> +1 14:27:57 or you reach a place with lots of footprints and you lose the ones you were looking to 14:28:07 i like teh clothing idea for multilayers too 14:28:07 emmapeel: +1 14:28:19 ohh emmapeel that is nice 14:28:25 It should look like very protective clothing :) 14:28:26 the clothing idea is fun but there is nothing there that says encryption 14:28:27 for fingerpriting resistance 14:28:42 for multilayered, maybe something of a dress-up person that has different costumes one on top of the other 14:28:44 alonBR yes, but we can have weird patterns on each layer 14:28:54 that recalls to encryption 14:29:00 * antonela loves this brainstorming 14:29:04 or a bit scarf wrapped around many times closed off with a lock 14:29:08 i love that idea! 14:29:11 the patterns bit 14:29:35 I still like layers of armor or sports equipment instead of clothing 14:30:05 block trackers could also be something like in some cleaning product commercial? where the dirt is kept away? 14:30:10 i dont think we should show people doing a war, we can use metaphors that make it more like a daily thing 14:30:38 <+emmapeel> for multilayered, maybe something of a dress-up person that has different costumes one on top of the other I --- I like that. maybe just a few sets of sun glasses on top of each other. it refers to security this way 14:30:43 antonela: +1 14:30:44 <_oftc_antone "i dont think we should show peop"> Wrapping up in many layers of clothing against the cold wind maybe? 14:31:04 yes yes, exactly toast_[m] 14:31:18 AlonBR yes! 14:31:38 ooh cold wind makes that metaphor more powerful 14:32:15 something like this? https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-happy-young-woman-wearing-multi-layers-of-clothing-to-keep-warm-27104792.html 14:32:28 block trackers could be someone or multiple people under an umbrella in the sun 14:32:31 i love the emmapeel ides about same footprints and the magnifier 14:32:45 someone walking against cold wind, and dressing up layers of clothes as they go 14:32:59 stephw yes! and i think that is where the umbrella idea came from 14:33:14 i dont think the metaphors have to be very specific 14:33:18 haha hiro, i keep picturing this instead: https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia3.s-nbcnews.com%2Fi%2Fnewscms%2F2016_32%2F1149886%2Fjoey-chandler-clothes-today-160810-tease-02_183e8bbb94f24fb88589b02d9c511d03.jpg&f=1 14:33:22 just people enjoying themselves with some protection 14:33:24 (sorry for the link gore) 14:33:28 i think showing a tracker being blocked is more clear than showing people covering themselves 14:33:31 for blocker 14:33:37 Before encryption: 14:33:42 * toast_[m] uploaded an image: image.png (512KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/xiXoYqptYfimtEFoLYoFddUS > 14:33:56 Oops sorry! 14:34:04 dunqan: lol that img 14:34:04 lol dunqan that is cool :) 14:35:11 dunqan LOL long live to joey 14:35:39 stephw yes, agreed! 14:36:23 * isabela needs to step out o/ great brainstorm folks! 14:36:38 okey, we have a solid idea for multilayer encryption, we have fingerprinting one, and also the blockers with the umbrellas, are we good on those? 14:36:42 thanks for coming isa! 14:37:13 grrot 14:37:45 AlonBR, could we have a review on friday? maybe a low-def version of those ideas 14:37:51 so next week we can work on colors :) 14:38:15 sure thing 14:38:23 awesome! 14:38:33 just email me the final Ideas that came up 14:38:46 alonBR yep, will do after this meeting 14:38:52 * antonela goes to see the agenda items 14:38:57 who is next, jakarta! emmapeel? 14:39:05 Thanks for the brainstorm everyone! great ideas all around 14:39:33 ok, so last week we had the AMA in LocLab and people was very excited about memes and security online 14:39:34 thanks very much alon! 14:40:19 i am getting to jakarta 9 days before we start our workshops, and so with Ical we were thinking on doing a meme-a-thon 14:40:22 thanks AlonBR ! Great work and looking forward to seeing the next iteration! 14:40:35 i am not sure what it is but i think you will be happy about this and give me some pointers :D:D 14:40:40 emmapeel: good stufff! which topics we should find memes for? 14:40:43 like tor in general? 14:40:48 privacy? encryption? 14:40:55 more like security online etc 14:41:06 yes, privacy... to explain to people that dont know tor etc 14:41:13 is interesting to see what emerge from local people, since memes works better with things that people can relate like closely 14:41:29 yes, that will be with jakarta hackerspace people 14:41:41 but we can help you on finding things in the internet 14:41:55 also related to this other article of localization lab contributor https://www.localizationlab.org/blog/2019/2/5/1i93a95cm8rdegvtqu3xm9n7gloyqh please look at the pic for VPN! 14:42:13 lol emmapeel is very good 14:42:59 oh my gosh haha 14:43:49 so, if you feel like a format for the meme-a-thon or something, let me know 14:43:54 okey, anything else emmapeel? we will collect fun things for you, where should we put them? sharing on tor-l10n will made the work? 14:43:59 Great article! 14:43:59 i stil have no clear dats, it should happen after the 17th 14:44:15 oki great, thanks for sharing emmapeel 14:44:20 elioqoshi you are up 14:44:25 not much more... been finishing onionshare translations and the release is about to come out 14:44:31 im groot! 14:44:34 * antonela we have 14 minutes left 14:44:40 Okidoki 14:44:51 Just quickly sharing a few non- core things 14:45:32 I had a call with EFF on Thursday where we talked about the next steps in redesigning the HTTPS Everywhere extension 14:46:13 This work will most likely be supported by OTF's Usability Lab and I'm wearing my Ura Design hat for that as well 14:46:26 yes, thats cool elioqoshi, i will review your OTF doc this week and make suggestions 14:46:43 We are working with Glenn Sorrentino, who did an initial UX Audit of HTTPS Everywhere 14:46:58 was there a proposal to replace https everywhere or did i imagine that? 14:46:59 (he also war in the Tor Mexico Meeting where he helped us with OONI Probe UX as well) 14:47:02 * emmapeel liked talking with Glenn in mexico! 14:47:03 maybe i'm thinking of noscript 14:47:18 dunqan, no, just a UX Redesign with a focus on Accessibility as well 14:47:24 gotcha 14:47:43 dunqan, no script needs love too - I'd love to do some inter team OTF work with no script at some point 14:47:47 I'm mentioning this since this will most likely benefit Tor as well 14:48:05 +1 Antonela, I'd like to help after this HTTPS Everywhere work 14:48:18 yeah no-script's a bit intimidating atm 14:48:51 elioqoshi yes, HTTPs-E is an extension that comes with TorBrowser by default and if it is improved by end-user, our TB users will be happy too 14:49:10 dunqan yes, and they got a redesign recently :/ 14:49:23 That's mostly it for HTTPS Everywhere. I am awaiting green light to go ahead but I wanted to loop you in and probably do 1 or 2 UX Team checkins in the next months once we have designs ready 14:49:32 Quick proposals we did at Simply Secure were these: 14:49:40 elioqoshi awesome, feel free to share here 14:50:28 elioqoshi what about Thunderbird and Tor, can we put our devs in contact with those devs or it is on idea level yet? 14:50:39 https://www.figma.com/proto/g61nw7TiEsXKoudsgoJeZ58X/HTTPS-Everywhere?node-id=2%3A106&viewport=-5233%2C330%2C0.627468&scaling=min-zoom 14:50:45 (sorry for non free JS stuff) 14:51:03 Okay, molving over to the Thunderbird topic: 14:51:51 at FOSDEM I met with Ryan, Community Manager at Thunderbird. In the past I have been working with them quite a lot and improved Thunderbird's UX step by step. Some Usability Studies and Style Guide here: https://ura.design/projects/thunderbird 14:52:14 I chatted a bit with Roger to ask him about the state of TorBirdy (the Thunderbird extension which enables Thunderbird to work via Tor) 14:52:32 He suggested to connect all of us with Sukhir, the maintainer of TorBirdy 14:52:43 WHich I did. We are awating next steps forward now 14:53:00 Thunderbird is applying for an OTF Internet Freedom Fund ( I know that everyone loves OTF :P ) 14:53:10 okey, great, yes sukhe is the right person 14:53:16 And if not through this, the Tor work will be part of some other effort at THunderbird 14:53:22 oh great 14:53:33 did you say that to sukhbir? 14:53:39 Thunderbird also hired Kai, who did originally the S/MIME encryption standard 14:53:44 (Fascinating, I guess I've been away for a while, I thought Thunderbird was no longer being developed) 14:53:49 He is going to work on PGP and other stuff on Thunderbird 14:54:08 So good encryption stuff happening on Thunderbird's side 14:54:09 wow, good news 14:54:12 Ooh — is that intended to replace Enigmail? 14:54:27 gus1, well, to have something like Enigmail out of the box at least 14:54:32 Instead of a 3rd party addon 14:54:32 maybe make a better integration gus1 14:54:44 Like Lightning Calendar 14:54:45 I remember there was a huge bug between Thunderbird/Enigmail/GPG Tools that they could not work together to fix 14:54:56 Lovely, that is all great to hear 14:55:07 gus1 actually they scaled from 3 employees last year to 12 now 14:55:14 they even hired another Frontend Designer 14:55:17 Excellent 14:55:22 gus1 im a current user, the out of the box onboarding is very painful, now just *works* 14:55:23 ahhh I heard a rumour they'd ramped up! 14:55:27 So I'm really excited to help them out a bit too 14:55:27 that's good to know 14:55:42 but when is broken, is hard to fix it if you dont have a technical background to do it 14:55:55 antonela: yes! elio emailed me and I have replied. I am not sure what the next steps are but we will see 14:56:05 sukhe i knew you were around :D 14:56:07 awesome! 14:56:09 But yeah, that's it in a nutshell. 14:56:22 antonela: :D 14:56:23 sukhe thanks! Yeah Ryan promised to get back 14:56:42 cool, this room is full of friends, i like it 14:56:46 He had a long travel back after I introduced you 14:57:04 do you know if the thunderbird team going to be iterating or launching a major new version instead elio? 14:57:13 since it's quite old? 14:57:18 elio, nice! I look forward to the developments 14:57:32 On a related note: They asked me to run for Thunderbird Council 14:57:40 Maybe I will, dunno yet :slightly_smiling_face: 14:57:46 pili the vision exercise will happen probably when you are back to india 14:57:53 +1 14:57:56 perfect 14:57:59 dunqan, I think major iterations are the right definition 14:58:03 thanks, sorry for that delay! 14:58:03 I'll send an email out soon anyway to schedule it 14:58:09 okey people 2 minutes to wrap 14:58:11 we should probably do it outside of this meetin g 14:58:16 elioqoshi cool! 14:58:25 eloqoshi nice! 14:58:36 i need to end this meeting, thanks everybody! 14:58:42 #endmeeting