15:59:42 <flexlibris> #startmeeting community team weekly meeting
15:59:42 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Feb 11 15:59:42 2019 UTC.  The chair is flexlibris. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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15:59:44 <wayward> o/
16:00:44 <flexlibris> okay pulling out the pad....
16:00:55 <flexlibris> has everyone got it?
16:01:19 <pili> yup
16:01:26 <wayward> yep!
16:01:30 <flexlibris> let's start on the support/community portals
16:01:59 <flexlibris> i havent had any time to look at the support portal content pull requests. all my attention has been on the community portal. has anyone had time for these?
16:02:26 <antonela> o/
16:03:00 <flexlibris> i'm gonna move them to march but....iirc they were fairly specific use cases that i didnt think had a lot of utility on the support portal
16:03:01 <pili> I actually had a question regarding the support portal, if it's ok to ask now? :)
16:03:04 <flexlibris> sure
16:03:22 <flexlibris> oh also, i just realized that we agreed to talk about community team visioning at this meeting
16:03:26 <flexlibris> and i totally forgot :)
16:03:29 <pili> yup, we can do it at the end :)
16:03:37 <flexlibris> okay we can do this part quickly then
16:03:40 <flexlibris> please ask your question
16:03:45 <pili> so, I was talking to isabela and she said that we should move over the relay operator guide from the wiki to the support portal
16:03:46 <pili> but
16:03:54 <pili> I can see we already have an operators section
16:04:04 <ggus> o/
16:04:15 <pili> AND that the guide in the wiki doesn't really follow a Q&A format like the support portal currently does
16:04:19 <flexlibris> yeah i thought it was all going to go on the community portal
16:04:29 <antonela> me too
16:04:29 <flexlibris> i dont think it really belongs on the support portal, that is for end users
16:04:33 <kushal> It should be a single place to search/read.
16:04:34 <pili> so I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas about the best way to do that
16:04:35 <pili> hmm... :)
16:04:36 <pili> ok
16:04:45 <flexlibris> there is some basic relay guidance there but it all links to the longer guide
16:04:50 <pili> sure
16:04:53 <antonela> i think is content for the community portal, we could link to it from support tho
16:04:58 <flexlibris> yeah
16:05:02 <Phoul> +1
16:05:06 <pili> maybe the links were the other way round then
16:05:07 <antonela> maybe we need a lektor instance for it
16:05:07 <pili> ok
16:05:16 <pili> I'll figure it out ;)
16:05:20 <pili> let's move on :)
16:05:52 <flexlibris> cool
16:06:01 <flexlibris> i will just name the items that i tihnk are outstanding to save time
16:06:24 <ggus> if in the long term we want to have all the manuals (tb and tba) in support.tpo, it make senses to have relay guide there too.
16:06:29 <flexlibris> ggus sent me his training materials and I have to finish mine and send them to the others working on the portals. LFI has been taking over my life.
16:06:59 <flexlibris> okay but then do we also have onion services setup instructions on the support portal too?
16:07:16 <flexlibris> we originally were making some distinction about what level people were at
16:07:23 <flexlibris> support portal being for more basic/intermediate users
16:07:43 <ggus> that depends on the size, if it's like 5 steps or like an article.
16:07:44 <Phoul> I think it mights sense to keep a separation between end-user programs like the Tor Browser or the mobile Tor Browser, and running infra like relays and onion services.
16:08:07 <Phoul> makes sense*
16:08:12 <flexlibris> yeah i agree with Phoul
16:08:24 <flexlibris> i'm not sure what you mean ggus, do you mean shorter, bulleted lists SHOULD go on the support portal?
16:09:11 <ggus> no, the opposite. the glossary is in support portal, for example
16:09:18 <kushal> Phoul, agreed
16:09:27 <ggus> my idea is to have long article in support
16:09:27 <antonela> yes, but i think the glossary needs their own section
16:09:33 <antonela> is lost at the support portal now
16:09:35 <ggus> not only small Q&A
16:09:38 <flexlibris> yeah and the glossary is for basic/intermediate users
16:09:57 <flexlibris> long articles for what content ggus?
16:10:19 <ggus> basically, How to's
16:10:22 <antonela> why if we briefly introduce it into support and then we link to relayoperators.tpo.org or something like it
16:10:33 <flexlibris> yeah i like that better antonela
16:10:59 <ggus> i don't know, i prefer to give people one link and they will find the right resource
16:11:12 <flexlibris> that's why we link to it
16:11:18 <ggus> i'd prefer in community
16:11:23 <flexlibris> i think that keeping basic user info on one page and more involved stuff on another page is better
16:11:32 <flexlibris> and keeping the basic user stuff short, no long articles
16:12:03 <flexlibris> anyway i suggest we debate this at the portals meeting on friday
16:12:07 <pili> yup
16:12:25 <flexlibris> emmapeel: can you come to that meeting on Friday and talk about localization needs/plans for the community portal content?
16:13:23 <ggus> emma couldn't make this meeting
16:13:30 <flexlibris> ah okay
16:13:36 <flexlibris> i will email her or maybe she will see the highlight
16:13:52 <flexlibris> okay so moving on to outreach
16:14:05 <flexlibris> anything to update about under this heading?
16:14:25 <cy63113> I?ll run 2 activities this week
16:14:32 <flexlibris> cool!
16:14:41 <cy63113> At Campus Party, a huge event here in SP
16:14:51 <cy63113> I still don't have my activities url
16:15:11 * antonela really liked how the Solid project is calling the relays "Community Servers", i know we are not storing anything on the relays computers but sounds more friendly not?
16:15:23 <cy63113> but one is DEsmystifying deep web and another is Do you have a moment to hear the word of Tor?
16:15:42 <antonela> nice cy63113!
16:15:45 <cy63113> :)
16:15:52 <flexlibris> the gospel of Tor
16:15:57 <cy63113> hahahahhahahahha
16:16:12 <cy63113> that's it for now
16:16:22 <flexlibris> cool good stuff thanks Cy!
16:16:28 <cy63113> :)
16:16:32 <flexlibris> volunteer updates?
16:16:47 <Phoul> antonela: My worry with wording like that is I think "community server" would apply to relays, onions, auths, etc.. not just relays; in the Tor context.
16:17:14 <flexlibris> seems like no updates there...
16:17:23 <antonela> phoul, you right, i just found that label very friendly
16:17:29 <flexlibris> i don't have much to say about LFI, I'm still doing the same stuff I was doing last week :)
16:17:37 <flexlibris> Phoul do you have anything to share about relay advocacy tasks?
16:17:41 <Phoul> antonela: agreed :)
16:17:45 <Phoul> flexlibris: yup!
16:17:48 <Phoul> I will be quick
16:18:04 <flexlibris> cool
16:19:13 <Phoul> This week I should hear about a date for the RRC / ISACA / SkullSpace cryptoparty & operator meetup, I've been working on content for this. This week I'm also meeting with the local IX group to discuss pushing ISPs to run more relays and to get more contacts in that space. I've also been working on the blog post to explain 100% bandwidth usage vs a "useful contribution to the network", this should be
16:19:19 <Phoul> ready for sharing mid this week. I've also been assisting a number of operators with NAT issues the last week.
16:20:30 <flexlibris> good stuff phoul
16:21:40 <flexlibris> any other updates folks? if not, we will talk about the community team vision
16:21:57 <kushal> We have Delhi and Bangalore events this week.
16:22:40 <kushal> ggus, do you want to share something from today's event?
16:22:44 <flexlibris> oh yeah, anything you want to say about those?
16:23:21 <kushal> flexlibris, ggus is the only person in Delhi, I will join in Bangalore
16:23:49 <kushal> End of update.
16:24:00 <ggus> tor training month in india started today with a workshop for journalists
16:24:05 <flexlibris> oh awesome
16:24:10 <ggus> my connection is very lagged and it's terrible to write
16:24:22 <flexlibris> but so far so good?
16:24:43 <ggus> all women workshop, it's pretty nic
16:24:47 <ggus> nice
16:24:53 <ggus> it was
16:25:25 <ggus> tomorrow i'll meet pari and we have two training activities
16:25:46 <flexlibris> awesome
16:25:48 <ggus> reconnecting brb
16:26:00 <flexlibris> anyone else have anything to share before we move on to the visioning stuff?
16:27:15 <flexlibris> okay seems not
16:27:17 <flexlibris> pili hey
16:27:17 <ggus> from brazil: cryptorave opened today their crowdfunding campaign.
16:27:27 <pili> hey :)
16:27:34 <flexlibris> let's talk about the future
16:27:59 * kat5 arrives, with apologies for spacing..
16:28:10 <pili> kat5: just in time for the vision exercise :D
16:28:34 <pili> so I just wanted to ask all of you first: why do we need a community team at the Tor Project? :)
16:29:08 <wayward> I think we need to make people feel welcome, so that they feel empowered to use Tor
16:29:12 <antonela> because is the only way to reach our end-users
16:29:59 <kat5> To keep our community, in all of its guises, healthy and welcoming.
16:30:03 <flexlibris> we want to offer resources and support to our community members who do outreach
16:30:04 <Phoul> Its important to provide support to users and operators, and to facilitate a sense of community within Tor.
16:30:12 <ggus> to reach communities that wouldn't have haerad about us, becausethey are non technical users
16:30:26 <flexlibris> to show the world a more human face of Tor
16:30:50 <flexlibris> to support the UX team's work
16:31:02 <kat5> To encourage people to join our community, whether that's users, operators, volunteers, advocates...
16:31:27 <antonela> sometimes when I explain what is the main difference when moving from a corporative environment to an open one I say: I switched the marketing team from the community team, and it feels so real, good and rewarding
16:32:03 <flexlibris> :D
16:32:05 <Phoul> Marketing without the cringe ;)
16:32:26 <antonela> yee
16:32:52 <pili> that was actually part of my own brainstorming process for this session :D what department in a corporate environment would the community team translate to? :)
16:32:53 <wayward> awwww
16:33:00 <pili> probably support also :)
16:33:15 <kat5> But it's more than that, I think. We don't just want to get people to become users or whatever. We also want to support them once they join us.
16:33:24 <pili> +1
16:33:28 <wayward> +1
16:33:31 <antonela> kat5 yes
16:33:50 <Phoul> +1
16:34:21 <kat5> Like, we care about them being able to accomplish their goals for their own sake. Not just so they buy the next product.
16:34:34 <pili> what would you say are our biggest challenges in the community team? and what problems are we trying to solve? (if any)
16:35:03 <pili> but also for everyone's sake in a way, because the more users there are, the more anonymous each user is
16:35:23 <kat5> Yep.
16:36:13 <pili> any more thoughts about the need for the community team? :) shall we move on to challenges and problems?
16:36:21 <flexlibris> move on to challenges imo
16:37:22 <kat5> Challenges: Lack of funding. We should be sending more people to more cons. We need a dedicated tech writing person. A dedicated volunteer coordinator.
16:37:23 <pili> maby
16:37:26 <kat5> ...
16:37:34 <wayward> I think one challenge is volunteer retention
16:37:40 <wayward> and +1 to what Kat said :p
16:37:47 <flexlibris> +1 to kat5 and wayward
16:37:50 <Phoul> +1x2
16:37:58 <flexlibris> the single greatest challenge for me is being the team lead when i have another full time job
16:38:16 <kat5> What Phoul has done as a relay advocate is a great model for other roles for sustaining community engagement.
16:38:17 <flexlibris> our team needs an actual funded team lead who can do things like this visioning exercise for one :)
16:38:36 <Phoul> Challenge: Growing the capacity of the Tor network to allow for wider adoption of the network, and to allow our users to continue using Tor without experiencing delays.
16:38:55 <flexlibris> and set goals for the team longterm, provide support for team members, do other work as needed for the team. with a full time team lead we could make real progress.
16:39:20 <wayward> another challenge I've run into has been getting users to the right sources - the information they need exists, but they often have trouble finding it
16:39:51 <kat5> flexlibris: +1 (Though to be clear, no knocks against your efforts!)
16:39:59 <flexlibris> thanks kat, none taken!
16:41:03 <antonela> +n to everything said, funded team lead, funded volunteer coordinator
16:41:29 <antonela> maybe a funded frontdesk corodinator
16:41:34 <pili> +1
16:41:35 <flexlibris> yes
16:41:36 <Phoul> +1
16:41:53 <Phoul> Was just typing out that another challenge is 1 on 1 end-user support :)
16:41:56 <flexlibris> full time support person who manages the support portal, answers questions at the desk, and then turns those answers into more support portal content
16:41:57 <wayward> ohhhhh definitely
16:42:08 <antonela> yess
16:42:38 <flexlibris> that person could take on what wayward has been doing with user issues, but since their whole job would be support they could be more active in getting people to the right places/creating the right places for them to go
16:42:53 <antonela> like a chat thing phoul? expensive tho but necessary. Not all endusers can arrive to irc
16:42:54 <wayward> yesssss
16:43:01 <antonela> yess
16:43:25 <Phoul> antonela: I was thinking RT in that case, but a chat system would also be an option. Wayyy back we (the tor support team) created a web chat system called PUPS that we used for a little while for live support.
16:44:14 <antonela> nice, we could consider it for the support portal at some point
16:45:12 <pili> so, given all these challenges, where do we want the community team to be in 2 years time? This may be an "easy" question in that we just address all our challenges, but maybe there are some other things we see in our future... ;)
16:45:49 <pili> (also, feel free to keep throwing out challenges in the meantime)
16:46:05 <wayward> I would love to be checking in with local communities we've met, and meeting new people every time we see them who are amped about getting involved with Tor :)
16:46:18 <ggus> i think there's a counter narrative that we need to make all time about how tor is not a bad thing; this is a challenge. looks likes we are always on the defensive, when it should be the oppoite. bside that i was thinking more about the structure that we want to build: volunteer based, staff based..
16:46:21 <flexlibris> in two years time i'd like for our full-time community team lead to be entering their second year :)
16:46:26 <wayward> which I guess already happens!
16:46:34 <kushal> ggus, that is very important point
16:46:45 <pili> flexlibris: :D
16:47:51 <kushal> Do we know any college syllabus which includes Tor Project?
16:48:12 <Phoul> kushal: We may soon, I'm working with a local college on adding running a relay to their Linux sysadmin program.
16:49:16 <wayward> nice!!
16:49:54 <Phoul> For the future, I'd like to see the community team continue to grow in both volunteers and paid staff. I'd like to see ISPs around the world donating their spare capacity to the Tor network. I'd like to see Tor branching out to different types of events, especially for relay operator recruitment (like ISP summits, NANOG, etc..).
16:50:34 <pili> Phoul: I like that idea about the different types of events
16:50:35 <flexlibris> yep
16:50:42 <pili> we don't always just want to be preaching to the choir
16:51:11 <Phoul> Agreed :)
16:51:25 <cy63113> i'd to like to see non tech people using Tor, just like they use chrome or ff
16:51:34 <wayward> +1 !!
16:53:00 <kushal> I would love to find ways to engage more young crowd.
16:53:19 <Phoul> kushal: +1
16:53:23 <kushal> As they will grow into different job, and lives, Tor will be spread along with them.
16:53:23 <Phoul> (and cy63113)
16:53:32 <pili> kushal: emmapeel shared a very good article about memes and vpns in zimbabwe
16:53:36 <pili> let me see if I can find it
16:53:38 <ggus> in 2 years: to more human rights defenders organizations in global south to recognize tor as a tool that can protect their work and their lifes (and not something that they should be scared). at the moment many don't know the difference between tor and vpn, and what's tor in general.
16:53:41 <kushal> pili, yup, I read it.
16:54:05 <pili> https://www.localizationlab.org/blog/2019/2/5/1i93a95cm8rdegvtqu3xm9n7gloyqh  for everyone else
16:54:09 <pili> icymi
16:55:47 <pili> ok, we can continue for a bit longer or we can try to wrap it up, anyone want to throw out any more ideas on anything we've discussed so far? :)
16:55:52 <Phoul> Finding a way to approach younger learning institutions would be helpful. This has been something I've struggled with personally, a lot of schools (at least in Canada) do not want people in to talk about Tor, because then their students can evade the school firewall.
16:56:22 <Phoul> But I think it would be super awesome to perform outreach to younger communities. Privacy is for all ages.
16:57:07 <Phoul> That attitude doesnt seem to change until College / uni years.
16:57:53 <flexlibris> i just noticed that it's one minute to the hour
16:57:59 <flexlibris> and i think another team meets in here right after we do
16:57:59 <pili> yup :)
16:58:00 <kushal> flexlibris, :)
16:58:01 <flexlibris> so we should wrap up
16:58:05 <pili> ok, let's wrap this up then
16:58:09 <flexlibris> do we want to continue this next week pili?
16:58:10 <flexlibris> we can
16:58:13 <pili> yup
16:58:34 <pili> I'll send an email out to summarise what was discussed
16:58:35 <pili> to the community mailing list
16:58:37 <pili> and maybe we can continue that discussion there also
16:58:49 <flexlibris> sounds great
16:59:00 <flexlibris> thank you for leading us in this conversation pili!
16:59:05 <flexlibris> i am closing the bot
16:59:07 <flexlibris> #endmeeting