13:58:46 <antonela> #startmeeting ux team
13:58:46 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Nov 20 13:58:46 2018 UTC.  The chair is antonela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:58:46 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:58:55 <antonela> let's do it!
13:58:59 <antonela> hello people
13:59:34 <dunqan> 👋 hello!
13:59:39 <antonela> as usual the pad is here https://storm.torproject.org/shared/UkUguHlAlZOmv_9mzyy4edxMc-cT6SeXnqGdrsPKtdG
13:59:47 <antonela> hello dunqan!
14:01:40 <antonela> please, add you updates to the pad, keep the roadmap items updated and make sure that if you have any topic to discuss, it is listed under the agenda
14:02:27 <pili> hi
14:02:38 <antonela> hi pili!
14:04:01 <_hc> hello
14:04:28 <antonela> hi _hc!
14:04:57 <antonela> nyinz is not here today
14:05:03 <antonela> hiro emmapeel
14:06:07 <emmapeel> yo
14:08:05 <n8fr8too> greetings
14:08:25 <flexlibris> yo
14:08:37 <antonela> holaaa
14:08:42 <flexlibris> holaaaaa
14:08:42 <antonela> okey, lets start?
14:08:44 <antonela> haha
14:08:51 <antonela> hi nathan!
14:09:07 <No60003> Hi guys!
14:09:14 <No60003> This is Fabby
14:09:18 <antonela> hola fabby!
14:09:29 <emmapeel> yeah the guardian on da house
14:09:47 <antonela> i invited Guardian Project folks to this UX meeting so we can use some of this meeting time to talk a bit about the new TBA and Orbot integration
14:10:17 <antonela> also, since they did an awesome work on orbot and orfox before i'm sure they have suggestions to share :)
14:10:21 <antonela> so, thanks for coming !
14:10:42 * Samdney lurks
14:10:57 <antonela> the relevant ticket is #28329
14:11:28 <antonela> we are on the initial stage to figure out what is the best flow for tba users to get connected to tor
14:12:08 <antonela> as i told fabby via email i don't want to discuss UI yet but collect what you people think about to approach this user flow on one or another way
14:12:28 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> Hola!
14:13:11 <antonela> ideally i'd like to deliver (aka the scope) the best flow we could image and also a suggestion about how we can implement it progressively
14:13:14 <antonela> hola elio!
14:13:17 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> (was wondering for a sec what TBA meant apart 'to be announced')
14:13:29 <antonela> lol TBA - Tor Browser Android
14:14:22 <dunqan> aha I wasn't sure either, seems obvious now!
14:14:31 <antonela> one thing that i have been talking with hellais is which minimum data ooni needs to make a diagnosis about the network our users are connected to
14:14:39 <antonela> sorry sorry
14:15:52 <antonela> seems like having country+ASN OR the user IP could help ooni to make this diagnosis
14:16:09 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> Definitely
14:17:20 <antonela> why im hesitant to ask users about their location? I don't know, i feel like we need to be extra clear that the location is going to be used to make a diagnosis and things start to become complex to explain for end users
14:19:22 <n8fr8too> one approach we have taken is using the language/locale/country info
14:19:34 <n8fr8too> this doesn't require a special permission.
14:19:57 <antonela> oh that is interesting
14:20:08 <n8fr8too> We could say "Looks like you are in Ethiopia? Want us to set Tor up for you appropriately?"
14:20:13 <antonela> so we could know the location without asking for that specific permission
14:20:13 <n8fr8too> we did this for Iran and bridges already
14:20:34 <n8fr8too> yeah, it isn't perfect, as someone can be traveling, not living in their country, etc, but for most users, it is fine
14:21:20 <antonela> thats great tho
14:21:49 <antonela> if you are looking to this userflow i made https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/attachment/ticket/28329/userflow.png
14:22:08 <antonela> the ideal flow could be 0 / 1.a - YES / 2.a / 3 / 3.2 / 4
14:22:55 <antonela> the problem we found running user testing is that most of the time, non technical users, don't know if they need a bridge, and they try options until something works
14:23:01 <n8fr8too> yup
14:23:30 <antonela> *maybe* we could do that trials under the hood and avoid frustrating the user
14:23:42 <n8fr8too> with Orbot, for phones set to Farsi, we automatically enabled bridges, configured to use special bridges setup just for them
14:24:30 <n8fr8too> i *think* it was a success... at least it simplified their experience, and ensured they reached unsaturated bridges
14:24:41 <antonela> that is smart, but hard to scale. I could imagine that we cannot enabled bridges freely just because there are not enough bridges to be used
14:24:55 <antonela> yes you right
14:25:27 <n8fr8too> the other idea we had was to try and connect, and if we got stuck at 10-15% connecting for more than a certain time interval, then switch to bridges
14:25:46 <antonela> how risky it is for users?
14:25:49 <n8fr8too> this has some risk in that the user then is "exposed" as using tor
14:26:00 <n8fr8too> depends on the place!
14:26:00 <antonela> yes that is my question
14:26:15 <antonela> let's say im in egypt and i'm get stuck in 10-15%
14:26:47 <antonela> that is a risk for users
14:26:56 <slacktopus> <hellais> The language/locale trick is neat, though I fear it will not work as well for languages like Arabic or Spanish
14:27:18 <n8fr8too> but we have country code too
14:27:24 <n8fr8too> we know MX/ES vs ES/ES
14:27:38 <n8fr8too> also time zone!
14:28:13 <n8fr8too> anyhow, i think OONI is the best resource to make the choice of whether the user should always have a bridge or not
14:28:24 <antonela> yep, but timezone gives you more possibilities
14:28:27 <hiro> here sorry
14:28:36 <n8fr8too> sadly we don't have enough bridge capacity to support all the users who might need bridges in places where using tor would be a risk
14:28:40 <hiro> totally forgot it's 1 hour earlier
14:28:48 <antonela> yes! but we need to give OONI the right data
14:28:53 <antonela> hey hiro, no worries
14:29:10 <antonela> n8fr8too yep
14:29:14 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> (there is a power outage here so am on mobile now, but not much of use for the meeting)
14:29:58 <slacktopus> <hellais> I fear you maybe be creating a new problem to solve though , figuring out the country based on time zone & language code and handling misconfigurations of these
14:30:29 <antonela> another thing i'd like to discuss with sysrqb is about having all orbot settings available at tba or not
14:32:27 <antonela> then I don't think we will bring VPN mode to TBA
14:33:00 <n8fr8too> yes please don't! the idea was for TBA to just be Tor for the browser, and still give room for Orbot to be Orbot
14:33:15 <antonela> yep, i think the same from a product perspective
14:33:29 <sysrqb> .
14:33:36 <antonela> hehe hi sysrqb
14:33:37 * sysrqb reads backlog
14:33:57 <antonela> and n8fr8too as we talked before, is a market that orbot can explore by himself
14:34:07 <slacktopus> <hellais> https://developer.android.com/reference/android/telephony/TelephonyManager#getNetworkCountryIso()
14:34:14 <slacktopus> <hellais> This seems interesting
14:34:15 <n8fr8too> he is ready to explore!
14:34:18 <antonela> :)
14:34:44 <slacktopus> <hellais> Though it will not work on Android devices without a sim card
14:34:49 <n8fr8too> i feel like that requires some kind of permission
14:35:25 <n8fr8too> the idea we had with this "autodetect location without GPS" was as a opportunistic nice to have feature, that would work most of the time. by saying "hey we think you are here, and might need a special Tor config. Okay?"
14:35:40 <n8fr8too> we allow them to say "No I am actually not there right now" or correct us somehow as well
14:35:50 <n8fr8too> as opposed to the "Do you need a bridge?" prompt being the first question
14:36:00 <antonela> exactly
14:36:45 <antonela> i want TBA to be proactive on suggesting ways to connect instead of expect users knowledge to pick the right config
14:38:26 <pili> +1
14:39:05 <No60003> That's the best approach, most of the users don't even know what a bridge is.
14:39:12 <antonela> yep
14:39:17 <_hc> I think TelephonyManager requires android.permission.READ_PHONE_STATE
14:39:33 <_hc> yeah, it should definitely offer things to try where the user just has to say yes or no
14:39:47 <sysrqb> Yes, TBA+Orbot should only provide minimum functionality, similar to on desktop - we don't need or want the VPN mode for this
14:39:56 <sysrqb> and I'm considering dropping the hidden services stuff, too
14:40:10 <antonela> sysrqb: yesss
14:40:15 <sysrqb> we just wanted a solution that got us up and running as soon as possible
14:40:33 <n8fr8too> though keeping a way to support client authentication / tokens for onion services would be great
14:40:43 <n8fr8too> we already have that capability
14:40:57 <antonela> sysrqb: yep, but if we can think about the ideal flow, then we can implement it progressively
14:40:58 <sysrqb> ah, that is good, yeah
14:41:07 <sysrqb> antonela: yep
14:41:28 <antonela> and by progressively i mean this section is not going to be automagically now, we need to ask users input *for now*
14:41:54 <antonela> but at least we have a flow that we agreed that we can build and we are all the parts in the same page
14:42:28 <sysrqb> and we're implementing this within TBA (Firefox Fennec), so we can swap Orbot for TOPL (Tor Onion Proxy Library) later
14:42:44 <sysrqb> yep
14:43:10 <antonela> okay! this conversation was insightful ! thanks folks for joining us! i hope we can have more spaces like this to share ideas :)
14:43:43 <antonela> next steps for me is sync with sysrqb about how we can do it now and how we can planify it for the future
14:44:22 <antonela> n8fr8too, _hc, No60003 please keep that ticket in your notes so you can jump if you have any comment
14:44:25 <n8fr8too> No60003 got concerned that you were just taking over all Orbot functions completely (which I knew you weren't), so yes communications are good!
14:45:14 <sysrqb> :) agreed
14:45:47 <antonela> cool
14:46:30 <antonela> emmapeel: do you want to talk about content in any way? just to open the discussion, we can go deep next week
14:46:45 <n8fr8too> we are adding in cool dance moves into Orbot, configurable skins, and loot crates!
14:46:51 <n8fr8too> so there is that...
14:46:51 <antonela> yeee
14:46:59 <emmapeel> well i wanted to mention that there is need for some cntent writing
14:47:20 <emmapeel> but is ok we had lots of talking today
14:47:45 <emmapeel> also i wanted peple to hink about merging some points of information and keep them updated
14:48:01 <antonela> do you mean faqs? or what?
14:48:17 <emmapeel> i think we are spread too thin over many different unmaintaned webpages regarding explaining things to the users
14:48:45 <emmapeel> some stuff is on the wiki, sme stuff is on tpo/doc, some stuff is is support.tpo, some stuff in tb-manual.tpo....
14:48:55 <antonela> yes, ideally all the things that can help end users should go to support.tpo
14:49:10 <antonela> the wiki is good for edit but is hard for localization
14:49:38 <emmapeel> yes, i think the wiki is cool to write the texts, but when they are more or less 'finished', complete, they should move to support
14:49:56 <antonela> emmapeel: agreed
14:50:00 <pili> maybe we need to figure out a workflow for this that doesn't involve the wiki
14:50:04 <emmapeel> and then, once they are moved, we have to be able to keep them maintained and forward the previous resource to them
14:50:12 <antonela> do you want to list that duplicated content in a ticket or something so we can work with wayward and the community team to merge it if is ready?
14:50:17 <pili> e.g through trac tickets
14:50:34 <emmapeel> there are some tickets, we have been working on merging the bridges page (well traumschule did most of the work)
14:50:50 <antonela> yes i saw it
14:51:04 * emmapeel looks
14:52:28 <emmapeel> https://github.com/torproject/manual/pull/7 for example here this one
14:53:07 <emmapeel> one thing i have done today is to ask weasel to build more branches from the manual, so we can push to our repo and the new version is going to appear at https://lektor-staging.torproject.org/tor-browser-manual/
14:53:23 <emmapeel> so i hope this will make the content easier to review for all stakeholders
14:53:26 <antonela> okey we are having discussions in github too
14:53:28 <hiro> emmapeel the staging is there already
14:53:32 <hiro> what do you mean?
14:53:42 <hiro> like more staging?
14:53:48 <emmapeel> hiro: that now all branches pushed to the repo will make a build
14:53:58 <emmapeel> yeah more staging for branches that are in work
14:54:03 <hiro> uhm
14:54:07 <hiro> why do we need that?
14:54:18 <hiro> I know not everybody can create branches
14:54:28 <hiro> but I do not want to end up with lots of builds either
14:54:30 <emmapeel> i think it is better to give stephw or sstevenson a link so they can review
14:54:40 <hiro> and staging wasn't enough?
14:54:45 <emmapeel> well there should not be so many
14:55:01 <hiro> yeah but then one forget to delete the branch and it stays there
14:55:18 <hiro> also I think to delete a branch we need to give RW+ access to the repo
14:55:22 <hiro> which by default we don't have
14:55:25 <emmapeel> yeah but if the changes are not finished they also stay there in staging
14:55:35 <hiro> I think we should just work with staging to be honest
14:55:49 <emmapeel> ok
14:56:25 <hiro> but if you feel strongly about this and you think it will make your job easier and weasel is cool with it
14:56:30 <hiro> I can get onboard
14:56:48 <emmapeel> well it was an idea because i felt i was not getting reviews for the content
14:56:58 <emmapeel> i can think about it and if i dont find a solution i ping you again
14:57:20 <emmapeel> i mean.. people was answering but they were not really able to see the images, for example
14:57:39 <hiro> what about having CI from github?
14:57:46 <hiro> and building the website there?
14:57:49 <hiro> via travis?
14:57:50 <emmapeel> that would also be good for me yeah
14:57:54 <antonela> that is great
14:58:09 <antonela> are we going with gh so?
14:58:21 <hiro> I think we can use that to have previews
14:58:32 <emmapeel> then it will be better, because i will not need to push myself or give push access to anybody, people can push to their own repo (thinking again on traumschule's case because he is doing a lot of contributions to the content)
14:58:41 <hiro> yep
14:58:48 <antonela> hiro could you explore that?
14:58:49 <emmapeel> also i think is easier to make reviews
14:58:54 <antonela> i mean try if it is doable
14:58:55 <emmapeel> in github
14:59:05 <antonela> yes emmapeel it is
14:59:11 <antonela> okey people we are on time!
14:59:24 <antonela> hiro will let you know about the CI and if we can use it?
15:00:07 <antonela> thanks Guardian folks for joining us today! and thanks Tor folks as always :)
15:00:09 <hiro> yep I'll do that
15:00:13 <antonela> super
15:00:16 <antonela> we groot?
15:00:21 <hiro> groot
15:00:23 <pili> groot
15:00:26 <antonela> #endmeeting