16:58:53 <nickm> #startmeeting network team, 17 Sep
16:58:53 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Sep 17 16:58:53 2018 UTC.  The chair is nickm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:58:53 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:58:56 <nickm> Hi everybody!
16:59:03 <nickm> The pad is at https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-netteam-2018.1-keep
16:59:14 <asn> o/
16:59:48 <nickm> how are folks doing this week?
16:59:52 <ahf> hey
17:00:26 <catalyst> hi
17:01:41 <nickm> isabela: you around today?
17:02:13 <mikeperry> (my browser is having a hard time loading the pad. sorry for the late update)
17:02:15 <nickm> As usual we start with the roadmap.
17:02:28 <isabela> oi
17:02:29 <isabela> yes
17:02:53 <nickm> We've got stome stuff to move around soon , but now that we're in freeze, anything left-over is probably going into 0.3.6
17:03:19 <nickm> One thing I've noticed about previous releases: We are reliably having our stable release come out a month later than planned
17:03:52 <nickm> I'm not sure whether that means that we should allow an extra month in the future, or whether it means that we don't get really serious about stabilizing until we are running past the original deadline
17:03:55 <ahf> and we want to avoid that here ?
17:03:58 <ahf> ok
17:04:08 <nickm> any thoughts here?
17:04:50 <ahf> isn't it a new thing that we in our roadmap have from now to 15/10 that we work on bugfixes?
17:04:59 <ahf> 15. october*
17:05:29 <nickm> no, we've had delay between freeze and merge-window before
17:05:53 <ahf> ok
17:06:09 <nickm> In theory we're planning to call 0.3.5 stable on 15 Dec.  It certainly feels like "plenty of time"
17:07:15 <nickm> Probably the most important bugs are not those that we know about right now, but the ones we discover over the first couple of alphas
17:07:34 <nickm> let's try to keep our schedule in mind here
17:07:35 <isabela> nickm: so in short, we are not late yet, but this has been the trend so far so we should reflect on that
17:07:42 <nickm> yup
17:08:07 <isabela> and yes, we are on 035 bugfix period
17:08:12 <isabela> :)
17:08:13 <nickm> maybe we should triage bugs more aggressively while we're stabilizing
17:08:27 <dgoulet> oh dear... sorry, realized I wasn't in the channel :(
17:08:33 <isabela> !
17:08:35 <nickm> hi dgoulet !
17:08:41 <nickm> we've been talking about 035
17:08:55 <isabela> maybe someone can share the backlog w/ u
17:08:58 <nickm> isabela: should we revise the roadmap today, or do it over the course of the week?
17:09:13 <asn> i share with dgoulet
17:09:19 <nickm> http://meetbot.debian.net/tor-meeting/2018/tor-meeting.2018-09-17-16.58.log.txt
17:09:25 <isabela> so! i will be w/ gaba over the course of the week preparing her for the roadmap session in mexico and other things
17:09:35 <asn> wow it's dynamic
17:09:42 <asn> dgoulet: ^
17:10:25 <isabela> i think the team should at least think about this roadmap and the list we did in seattle for 2019 - i will try to put some of that info together and remind ppl about pending proposal
17:10:35 <nickm> sounds good
17:10:47 <isabela> because in a week you all will be in mexico working on roadmap
17:10:48 <isabela> btw
17:11:00 <isabela> this time in mexico maybe would be good to roadmap from mexico till team hackfest
17:11:20 <dgoulet> yes ++ ^ our roadmap past October is virtually empty :S
17:11:44 <nickm> we still have an opportunity to finsish sponsor8 stuff by end-of-year.  The main missing pieces are the rest of the bootstrap-reporting improvements, and improvements on the mobile API if anybody asks for them
17:11:44 <ahf> when do we aim for our next team hackfest ? in Q1 2019?
17:11:58 <isabela> normally we roadmap dev meeting to dev meeting but this time we will have 10 months between then not 6 (it looks like)
17:12:30 <isabela> s/then/them
17:12:45 <nickm> Let's try to roadmap at least 6 months ahead in mexico, recognizing that plans become fuzzier as the recede into the distance? :)
17:12:51 <isabela> yep
17:13:05 <isabela> sounds good, and whenever the hackfest happens you all can review the plan
17:13:17 <isabela> roadmap again
17:13:24 <nickm> ok
17:13:44 * isabela brb need to move laundry to dryer
17:13:46 <nickm> BTW, folks, this doesn't mean that you must (or necessarily should) stop doing all hacking between now and october 15...
17:13:59 <nickm> but we _should_ be taking the chance to make things less buggy
17:14:07 <ahf> ok
17:14:39 <ahf> will the branches be made early? so big chances that can go in for 0.3.6 can be merged already, or?
17:15:05 <nickm> It's good to get stuff done ahead of time if it's big, yeah...
17:15:16 <nickm> but it's also important to make sure that what is already merged is fixed too.
17:15:53 <nickm> we'll need to balance our time there; if anybody isn't sure what balance to strike, maybe bring it up with the team, or ask me/isa/gaba?
17:15:59 <dgoulet> nickm: wait this means you'll branch master to 036 *not* on October 15th? in other words, maint-0.3.5 will appear before Oct 15th?
17:16:21 <ahf> this is big, it's ~1500 LOC's+
17:16:22 <nickm> Oh, that's not what I meant
17:16:42 <nickm> No, I'm not planning to merge any 0.3.6 stuff until the merge window is open
17:16:47 <ahf> ok, cool
17:16:52 <dgoulet> ok
17:17:15 <nickm> next topic is reviews. Everybody has 1 or 2, it seems.
17:17:35 <nickm> A lot of this code is mine -- I'm happy to talk anybody through a patch if it turns out to be nontrivial or hard to test
17:17:46 <nickm> anybody have questions/issues with their reviews?
17:18:12 <asn> ehm
17:18:15 <asn> just wanted to say to teor4
17:18:30 <asn> that we wiped off his 036 reviews from the sheet, beccause we all supposed to focus on 035 stuff for now
17:18:37 <nickm> *their
17:18:44 <asn> yes sorry
17:19:03 <asn> and that when we finish off with the big 035 pile, we will reinstall their old reviews, if that makes sense.
17:19:04 * isabela back
17:19:11 <asn> EOF
17:19:14 <nickm> yeah, there's no harm in reviewing 036 stuff ahead of schedule, but 035 should get priority here
17:19:38 <nickm> I see mikeperry and ahf are both reviewing the same ticket. That's intentional, I bet?
17:19:58 <asn> no
17:20:07 <nickm> oh
17:20:08 <asn> dgoulet: ^
17:20:17 <asn> i think that's not mike's ticket
17:20:18 <asn> we will fix that
17:20:19 <dgoulet> oh nope... that is a mistake
17:20:34 <asn> good catch
17:20:44 <dgoulet> as soon as trac responds, I'll fix :)
17:21:35 <nickm> Next item is rotations: I see catalyst on bug triage, mikeperry on community guide, teor on scheduling design meetings, and asn on CI+coverity
17:21:44 <nickm> Does that work for everybody?
17:21:55 <asn> ack
17:22:12 <nickm> i'm happy to take over somebody's rotation this week if I need to -- I have less stuff going on than ususal
17:22:53 <nickm> So, on to discussion?
17:23:34 <nickm> The first issue is whether anything is blocking 0.3.5.1-alpha.  I talked with teor and I think we agree that we can release 0351 alpha if the issue mentioned only affects nss...
17:23:40 <nickm> ..and if we provide workaround instructions
17:24:06 <nickm> I'd like to get 0351-alpha out today or tomorrow if we can, so it can get into the planned TB alpha
17:24:39 <dgoulet> nickm: I put a note in the pad that our consensus now does NOT have LinkAuth=1
17:24:42 <nickm> Should we block the alpha release for anything, or stick with that plan?
17:24:44 <dgoulet> (thanks to the dirauth updating last week :)
17:24:49 <nickm> yeah
17:25:06 <catalyst> what level of support are we claiming for NSS?
17:25:18 <nickm> "alpha"
17:25:33 <nickm> "There are probably bugs here"
17:25:46 <nickm> We're excluding NSS from our LTS guarantees, too
17:25:57 <catalyst> will we still consider it "alpha" when 0.3.5 reaches release?
17:26:04 <nickm> I don't know yet.
17:26:23 <catalyst> i agree with excluding NSS from LTS guarantees
17:26:24 <nickm> I think it depends on how reliable it is in practice
17:26:52 <nickm> and how hard the problems are to fix
17:27:07 <nickm> I know I'm being kinda vague. Any ideas for more specificity?
17:28:29 <dgoulet> I'm unable to load the 035 ticket at the moment (Trac...) but iirc, no show stopper for the alpha imo ... but this means we've decided that the "80% bootstrap and PT bootstrap states" are going in 036 ?
17:28:40 <nickm> dgoulet: the remaining parts of it, yeah
17:28:46 <dgoulet> ack
17:28:57 <catalyst> i'm a little concerned that we could end up diverting a lot of effort away from other things if we're trying to fix NSS things to make them release-ready
17:29:09 <nickm> catalyst did #27169 , which makes a bunch of stuff better, but it's not complete
17:29:43 <nickm> catalyst: I agree. If it turns into a morass, we shouldn't let everything block on it
17:29:55 <dgoulet> most important thing I have in mind can go post-freeze (if my memory serves me well) so I say "green light" on alpha :)
17:30:11 <nickm> (rather, #27169 is complete, but the rest of the 80% bootstrap thing isn't)
17:31:40 <nickm> The next topic is really essential: we need to figure out our schedule for Mexico City on the team day
17:31:51 <catalyst> some stuff is a child of #27169 that might not need to be
17:32:33 <nickm> The roadmapping is absolutely must-do; the rest of the stuff is more negotiable
17:33:05 <nickm> Does anybody besides me want to manage the schedule for that day?  If not I'll do it
17:33:21 <nickm> catalyst: Let's come to that when we get to the next discussion topic :)
17:33:30 <isabela> i have suggestions!
17:33:36 <nickm> isabela: yes please
17:34:03 <isabela> i am meeting gaba this week to onboard her and prep her for this meeting
17:34:42 <isabela> so my suggestions are for the team to review routines i feel some can still use better definition like community hero
17:35:41 <isabela> also since the 'rome system' that we adopted is doing well, maybe we should try to implement a points system like for measuring capacity, so folks knows when they should not take another task
17:35:45 <isabela> etc
17:36:04 <nickm> I've added "retrospective" to the list
17:36:27 <isabela> can we decide these meetings now and give some time estimation for them?
17:36:45 <isabela> mexico is in one week and flexlibris needs this to better organize the logistics of that day
17:37:06 <nickm> i suggest: let's write out the ones we have ideas for , estimate time, and be open to sandwiching something else in if we have a must-do idea?
17:37:16 <isabela> i think we can conbine: Revisiting our weekly routines with  Retrospective
17:38:32 <nickm> I've put in my thoughts here
17:38:34 <isabela> if anyone has preference of when in the day like morning or afternoon any of these should happen please add to the pad, i will update the wiki and send a note to network team list for ppl to review
17:39:10 <nickm> We have Alex Chrichton for much of the 29th and the 30th, so we should make sure we do some of our rust stuff to honor his time and get his help
17:39:23 <nickm> I've tried to estimate times for the meetings
17:39:30 <flexlibris> :D
17:39:32 <isabela> cool
17:39:33 <nickm> anybody think my estimates are way off?
17:40:08 <isabela> yeah they are ok but like
17:40:20 <isabela> you saying rust stuff can be on 29 and 30 not at the team day
17:40:36 <isabela> cuz this full list might be a lot for 1 day :)
17:40:41 <isabela> maybe not
17:40:46 <nickm> hang on -- what day is team day??
17:40:48 <isabela> maybe ppl brains will survive
17:41:19 <isabela> 28
17:41:20 <isabela> ?
17:41:30 <nickm> the wiki says 29
17:41:33 <GeKo> 29
17:41:37 <nickm> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2018MexicoCity/DailyAgenda
17:41:39 <isabela> ahh
17:41:48 <isabela> yes, trust the wiki not me
17:41:50 <isabela> :)
17:42:48 <nickm> I've put stuff in a rough order on the pad
17:42:56 <isabela> ty nickm !
17:42:59 <nickm> any other sessions to suggest or revisions?  If not let's take that as a draft and move on
17:43:10 <nickm> last request is for everybody to help move tickets out of 035
17:43:49 <nickm> Especially if it's stuff that's assigned to you
17:43:56 <nickm> feel free to revise or un-parent as needed
17:44:16 <nickm> but if it's not in-scope for 0.3.5 any more, it should go into the 036 milestone or the unspecified milestone for now
17:44:34 <ahf> ok
17:44:54 <nickm> any questions about that?
17:45:27 <dgoulet> nope
17:45:38 <nickm> ok cool!
17:45:47 <nickm> do we have anything else for today?
17:46:23 <dgoulet> we need to find a Trac admin somewhere and reboot the hamster.... I can't go over any 035 tickets right now to see if we are missing anything pre-alpha :S
17:46:32 <dgoulet> (general comment ^ :P)
17:46:36 <nickm> yeah
17:46:38 <ahf> yeah, just service unavailable for tickets. wiki seems to work
17:47:31 <isabela> dgoulet: did you pinged hiro ?
17:47:45 <nickm> ok -- then I think we're out of topics. Please remember to read everybody's updates, and have a great week. There's a lot to do between now and mexico, but I'm looking forward to seeing (most of) you there!
17:48:03 <ahf> likewise
17:48:04 <ahf> o/
17:48:37 <nickm> peace all
17:48:38 <nickm> #endmeeting