19:00:23 #startmeeting TB + UX weekly sync o/ 19:00:23 Meeting started Wed Apr 11 19:00:23 2018 UTC. The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:00:23 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:00:31 today we have a movie! 19:00:34 pospeselr: it turns out we are talking about items which you got signed up for on the roadmap :) 19:00:50 nice 19:00:57 we will start with my little agenda, lets check out the circuit display for android work antonela did 19:01:00 #25764 19:01:03 * antonela thought it was proper selr like proper lol 19:01:34 yes! i worked this week on Andorid, thanks igt0 for the help! 19:01:44 yay! 19:02:09 there is a nice screencast there too 19:02:22 i created a TBA child ticket on each main ticket, so we can have a mobile thread too 19:02:44 * isabela gives ppl a min to consume info 19:03:05 vid looks super 19:03:53 (: 19:03:54 nice, so the screenshot...that's for an onion service connection 19:04:02 not a connection to badssl.com, right? :) 19:04:08 hehehe 19:04:27 yes 19:04:29 looks great, though 19:04:29 ignore the copy 19:04:45 nono, i 1) updated the mobile app UI to Photon 2) created a demo version to see if this dialog box is good for our uses 19:04:50 yes, that 19:04:55 neat! 19:05:02 i'll create each case like we did for desktop 19:05:09 cool 19:05:26 but this dialog box will solve 2 things: padlock security indicator + new circuits home 19:05:31 specifically the three "relay" hops are not...right :) 19:05:39 you right :) 19:05:42 Will people know that “NEW CIRCUIT FOR THIS SITE” is clickable? On my old Android, device tappable items are usually shown in a distinctive color. 19:05:43 hehhe 19:05:51 old Android device 19:06:00 mcs: good point 19:06:11 hrm, yeah, maybe mak iit more button-y 19:06:16 *make 19:06:32 on my favor, we are working on the onion icon at #25763 and I want to stop using onions until we have the definitive one, just to dont create more noise 19:07:02 mcs: we can make it a button, but i'm following Material Design directions with the colored link 19:07:21 Following conventions is the right thing. 19:07:23 I think. 19:07:24 anw, yes we can test/try a button instead a link, for sure 19:07:54 i wonder if we can add a separator line (or something) between the circuit graphic and the link 19:08:07 something that makes it look different 19:08:14 mmm, could be 19:08:24 wondering if the link is the only call to action we should have there 19:08:53 true 19:08:54 i think link gives the impression will take you to the web 19:08:56 like, what happen with our Learn more links? 19:08:59 button means something related to the app 19:09:10 good point 19:09:37 and yes 19:09:41 we should add the copy there too 19:09:44 the learn more copy 19:09:45 :) 19:09:54 yep 19:09:59 * antonela is taking notes 19:10:04 we will have a kind of separator line on the new desktop version. Background color is light gray 19:10:09 antonela: smash it like a hamburguer and you can fit more :P 19:10:15 * isabela kidding 19:10:18 hahaha 19:10:32 arthur, yes! we can try it on the dialog too 19:10:53 antonela and I spoke about it however we also need to decide if the tablet circuit display will look similar as the mobile one. 19:11:05 cool 19:11:17 yes, this is something cool to talk about ha 19:11:24 igt0: what speaks against that? 19:11:39 GeKo, there are tablets with huge screen size 19:11:46 7inches and 9 inches 19:11:55 [on Material Design docs] 19:12:29 so the circuit display modal floating in the middle of a 9 inches tablet would have a funny look and feel. 19:12:47 i see 19:12:51 :/ 19:12:58 it could be a door hanger in that case 19:13:01 just like on desktop 19:13:05 yeah 19:13:07 yep 19:13:08 or something similar 19:13:10 i wonder how it behaves now 19:13:32 is it doorhanger for these tablets with big screens? 19:13:36 * isabela doesnt have one 19:14:08 ok 19:14:17 we can investigate it for antonela next iteration 19:14:20 i need to resurrect any android tablet i have here 19:14:21 anything else on this? 19:14:21 yes 19:14:27 on my 7” tablet with Firefox beta (60?) it is more like a doorhanger (right below the URL bar) 19:14:38 ah 19:14:39 cool 19:14:39 mcs, centered or left aligned? 19:14:43 can you take an screenshot? 19:14:57 on my Nexus 6pit hangs off the SSL lock *like* a door hanger 19:15:03 gotcha 19:15:09 ok 19:15:13 ill work on tables for next week, yes 19:15:16 I will figure out how to make a screenshot :) But it is nearly left aligned (just a few pixels in from LHS of screen) 19:15:18 well, sorta 19:15:23 yeah same as mcs 19:15:25 ppl add screenshots to the ticket or send to antonela :) 19:15:28 mcs: is fine, thanks a lot! 19:15:33 mcs, portrait and landscape? 19:15:51 landscape is my deal breaker ha 19:16:16 :) 19:16:20 because a dialog box on potrait mode is good, but on landscapes /o\ 19:16:22 yes, although tall may not work well in landscape (which is what antonela is saying I think) 19:16:29 yes 19:16:48 exactly, cool! 19:16:51 ok 19:16:57 send this stuff to antonela 19:17:02 and antonela will play more with it 19:17:11 yep, will work on it next week :) 19:17:18 ok 19:17:19 if it doesn't fit on landscape, we could draw the circuit horizontally instead of vertically 19:17:30 then the text would hang down diagonally from each node 19:18:01 more css fun :P 19:18:04 hehehe 19:18:06 oh yes 19:18:06 hell 19:18:07 mmm, that could work 19:18:43 alright folks :) i will move on to the next item if its ok 19:18:50 should the node text be on the other side of the node diagrams for left <- right languages? 19:18:52 and antonela will play more with this and present options 19:19:06 pospeselr: yes, that's what we do on the current Tor Browser 19:19:06 or is that not how that works 19:19:12 pospeselr: good question, *drinks water*, yes 19:19:13 alright awesome 19:19:16 should be in the new version too 19:19:24 but I haven't tested it yet 19:20:59 what's next? 19:21:10 #25658 i think 19:21:10 ok 19:21:23 i had another update 19:21:28 #23247 i think 19:21:30 the .onion states are nwo updated 19:21:34 *now 19:21:59 yes! 19:22:01 GeKo: this is in the roadmap for summer? 19:22:10 * isabela looks 19:22:13 this month 19:22:23 and pospeselr is already watching :) 19:22:31 oh 19:22:33 oh 19:22:34 ok 19:22:40 pospeselr: well here it go :) 19:22:45 lol 19:22:45 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bPrNLIl7Qy-sA7aTfElu80Xk2eXzTfH_5BGTOUDK8XU/edit#heading=h.bitrsfdc06r 19:22:50 this is what matters 19:22:52 i would say 19:23:41 I'll provide all the icons you need, most of them are part of Photon 19:23:42 https://design.firefox.com/icons/viewer/ 19:24:14 but the onion one is under discussion 19:24:21 pospeselr: let me us know if you have any questions 19:24:31 this was a result of many people brains :) 19:24:36 isabela: see mcs's comment on the ticket 19:24:53 i think the last case for https embeds onion is wrong 19:25:17 (i should have said "think, too" as tjr pointed it out as well) 19:25:54 i dont understand 19:25:59 i updated it already 19:26:26 the first case in page two shows an onion 19:26:30 but it should be a padlock 19:26:39 onion over http? 19:26:49 A HTTPS Site embeds onion: 19:27:00 and there the HTTPS Site with HTTPS Self-Signed Onion Subresources case 19:27:03 its a padlock 19:27:07 i changed it 19:27:10 i have a .onion here 19:27:14 eita 19:27:19 ah, okay, carry on then 19:27:28 hehehe 19:27:38 :) 19:27:50 ok pospeselr ping us if you need anything or has any questions! 19:27:55 it's still an onion though after reloading, weird 19:28:08 does others sees an onion? 19:28:13 yes, I see an onion 19:28:16 GeKo: is the google devil 19:28:18 eita 19:28:23 no, i am the google hater 19:28:27 heh 19:28:46 haha 19:29:07 https://share.riseup.net/#fzdtrYG0BG0Y88n1mOm1hQ 19:29:39 nsa is intercepting and showing yall different things to interrupt our meeting 19:29:43 :) 19:29:48 anw! 19:30:10 that image does not show the case in question :) 19:30:16 if there is any other thing please ping us :) but otherwise pospeselr should be good 19:30:39 hmm 19:30:55 oh! 19:30:59 my bad! 19:31:02 yes! 19:31:09 no worries :) 19:31:27 :) 19:31:48 should it be with the little yellow thing like default is? 19:32:39 no, i think just green 19:32:47 ah 19:32:55 k 19:32:58 easy 19:33:00 it should not be treated worse as http onion subresources i think 19:33:12 true 19:33:17 yes, that's better, thanks 19:33:22 ty! 19:33:23 alright ppl 19:33:27 lets move on :) 19:33:45 https://bugs.torproject.org/25658 19:33:47 it is 19:34:15 lets talk about this idea 19:34:31 antonela: want to say something? 19:34:47 yes! we quickly introduced it last week, and then i updated the ticket because is better for all us to have tickets updated before the meeting 19:34:49 so 19:35:00 we had some comments (thanks mcs!!!) 19:35:47 :) 19:35:47 I created this UI based on GeKo's proposal 19:36:03 we are still exploring options, so nothing is solid on the rock 19:36:21 we talked about this idea in Rome and I put it together on those mocks 19:36:55 i personally think that the security setting is a super cool feature for our browser and it deserves a place at the top nav 19:37:52 about to have a visual feedback on the set level, i proposed some colors, comments proposed numbers, labels 19:38:05 Maybe we can think together about it 19:38:25 i think we should not reuse the tracking protection icon 19:38:28 i have feedback on the copy 19:38:34 we dont have mobile mocks yet, because i'd like to define the core UI first 19:38:55 GeKo, cool, it is something i mentioned at the ticket and I'm not sure 19:39:03 the title of this is 'Security' and the our section is 'Security Preferences' - I would change our section title to 'Tor Browser Preferences' 19:39:09 we are inside security already 19:39:11 because i think we should be adamant about not mixing security and privacy properties 19:39:16 I agree about not reusing the icon. 19:39:19 the latter all our users should get 19:39:20 good point 19:39:35 the former is up to individual thread models 19:39:42 I think in the Security section of about:preferences we could remove the other Firefox settings, because they are dangerous to change anyway. 19:39:47 and mixing both makes the analysis harder 19:39:57 onion with a lock? :) 19:39:57 arthuredelstein: +! 19:40:01 ops 1 19:40:01 :) 19:40:20 I guess none of this is onion-related tho 19:40:28 mcs: not sure if using onions for this 19:40:32 well at least collapse them 19:40:42 exactly, BUT a lock is something to explore 19:40:52 i would not remove them outright 19:40:58 i think 3 onions where on each level an onion is colored the rest is gray, also growing from little to big 19:41:01 hehe 19:41:02 too crazy? 19:41:32 mmm 19:41:40 fancy 19:42:16 we are solid that 1) we have an icon indicator at top nav 2) the settings will be at about:preferences 19:42:42 yes /me thinks 19:42:59 I think that is a good approach. 19:43:22 +1 19:43:26 fyi, for the Tracking Protection Icon OPT 1, the red orange and green dots are basically the same when zoomed out to the size they would appear in the chrome (for those of us with defective eyeballs) 19:43:27 cool, I wanted to explore more options for the iconography, so cool that you dont agree on reusing the former one 19:43:28 :D 19:43:48 heh 19:44:05 antonela: <3 tx 19:44:15 pospeselr: yep, people complained about colors, but we are not going to have just colors there, i'm aware that we need a lable 19:44:19 sorry, label 19:44:29 i like arthuredelstein proposal to remove FF part 19:44:37 yes, a comment on it 19:44:50 in general there's a lot of ui in about:preferences that we should consider hiding for user safety 19:45:03 and increae usability 19:45:04 the settings section is something we should discuss deeper, like are we going to have our own section? Tor Browser Settings 19:45:09 or a different one 19:45:10 it's overwhelming 19:45:34 sysrqb: yes! 19:45:39 (the number of options on about:preferences now) 19:45:40 arthuredelstein: yes 19:45:48 sysrqb: yes 19:45:55 i think we don't need our own section 19:46:15 obv not a designer, but one way to do it without colour (or labels) is to take that shield icon and modify the fill: 19:46:15 Default : same icon with the middle bit removed 19:46:15 Safer: same icon with the 'half shield' in the middle 19:46:15 Safest: mirror over the middle "hafl shield' to fill the interior space 19:46:16 if we hide #security options that ar already there then this should fit neatly 19:46:27 pospeselr: I LIKE IT 19:46:37 maybe we should have our own section and hide FF section but our section offer a way to unhide FF’s Privacy & Security section? 19:46:40 GeKo: i agree 19:46:44 we should take over! 19:46:46 is our browser now :P 19:46:54 lol 19:47:20 brade: we could do that! 19:47:36 hide it under an 'advanced' button or something 19:47:38 people love those 19:47:42 oh yes 19:47:43 brade: yes that works too 19:47:44 yes 19:47:45 ha 19:48:07 wait, hide the default under advanced? or hide ours? 19:48:16 hide the default things people shouldn't be touching 19:48:17 default 19:48:20 YES 19:48:30 oh our minds are so aligned 19:48:41 I say if you click "advanced" it just launches Internet Explorer 19:48:43 makes things easier :) 19:48:47 lol 19:48:48 lol 19:48:48 lol 19:48:59 hmm gonna be tricky on linux 19:49:00 easter egg 19:49:08 but we could package wine and launch a wine emulated gecko browser 19:49:16 ohmy 19:49:16 aiaiai 19:49:54 so, i'll create new options for the indicators, we can continue discussing settings at the ticket 19:50:01 k 19:50:09 we are 9min to the hr 19:50:19 want to introduce whats coming up for next week? 19:50:34 yes 19:50:35 I also like pospeselr’s fill idea for the icons. 19:50:41 +1 19:50:46 i'll render it 19:51:08 woo 19:51:30 I started to work on about:tor/onboarding task, i upated the ticket #25695 and you can review it during this week, so we can talk about it next meeting 19:51:31 :) 19:51:36 \o/ 19:51:42 i tell you! this project will be so much fun 19:51:48 it is 19:52:12 Quickly: does anyone know how Firefox’s onboarding is implemented? Is it all local (as opposed to talking to a server)? 19:52:20 antonela: knows! 19:52:43 no movie attachment this time? ;) 19:52:45 disclaimer: you will not find fancy mocks at this time, we are discussing how the flow should be, after that I'll create hd mocks 19:52:54 aha! 19:52:55 GeKo: you getting spoiled :P 19:52:57 mcs: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/25695#comment:3 19:53:06 someone commented there and was so useful for me 19:53:20 not sure if this answer your question 19:53:21 I saw that but did not look at the code :) 19:53:25 GeKo: aha! 19:53:37 isabela: you are raising the bar! from now on only ux improvments with movies!11! 19:53:48 gifs or die 19:53:52 * mcs is starting to think about popcorn now 19:53:53 hahaha 19:54:33 alright, folks 19:54:47 we have 5 min - if anyone wants to give first impressions on the flow 19:55:31 anything here you think is not possible to have so far? 19:55:36 know those states 19:55:37 having two onboardings A and B seems complex 19:55:57 oh 19:56:00 agreed 19:56:04 i think B here is more a new version of it 19:56:08 for the new features 19:56:11 one for first time installers and another for updates? 19:56:25 okay, we can think about it 19:56:38 it makes perfect sense, just seems like a lot :) 19:56:42 Is the idea of the “1st time update” (B) flow that we would show what is new (i.e., expose new features)? 19:56:52 yes, exactly 19:57:01 we need to present something nicer than change log page 19:57:04 after udpate :) 19:57:07 yep 19:57:15 Would we do that for each release? Each time we add major features? Something to think about I suppose. 19:58:13 for major UI changes, we may want more of a walk-through post-update 19:58:14 mcs: yes, i've been thinking 1. we would haave something on the landing page for every release with a link to change log and 2. onboard would be updated if a new feature is added 19:58:16 mcs: i think major features/updates needs a highlight at the first view 19:58:20 so that maybe good for another on-boarding 19:58:33 yeah :) 19:58:34 We should also think about how users will get introduced to the onboarding. First time we might want to really be “in your face” so we can teach people important things. 19:58:35 maybe we change it 19:58:47 from onboarding B to 'feature discovery' 19:58:54 and is called when we do have one to show 19:58:55 sysrqb: something like https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/59.0.2/tracking-protection/start/ 19:59:10 yup 19:59:15 cool 19:59:29 I think that Mozilla does a poor job with their onboarding; the page is so cluttered that you don’t see it 19:59:42 isabela: +1 19:59:45 does this have any fingerprinting concerns? iirc we removed/play to remove the tor browser update version history 19:59:46 brade: Do you mean b/c their start page is so cluttered? 19:59:55 yes 20:00:01 plan to remove* 20:00:26 as long as this is all local i think we are finw 20:00:28 *fine 20:00:40 ^ 20:00:53 (exactly what i was about to say) 20:01:00 :) 20:01:01 how hard could be for devs having this like of onboarding instead of cards? 20:01:02 https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/59.0.2/tracking-protection/start/ 20:01:13 like > kind 20:01:29 i mean, at first glance, i dont need points estimations 20:01:51 because if you think is something doable, we can think in a version with steps 20:02:13 On my Firefox, that onboarding hangs on step 3 :( 20:02:41 antonela: I can’t load that page 20:03:03 arthur: :heartbreaks: 20:03:05 arthuredelstein: same 20:03:23 brade: 20:03:24 https://www.dropbox.com/s/7et2bfr3413jjl1/Captura%20de%20pantalla%202018-04-11%20a%20la%28s%29%2010.06.16%20AM.png?dl=0 20:03:32 https://www.dropbox.com/s/ptgv50kfxf217c9/Captura%20de%20pantalla%202018-04-11%20a%20la%28s%29%2010.06.21%20AM.png?dl=0 20:03:39 https://www.dropbox.com/s/722bp5clndezaw5/Captura%20de%20pantalla%202018-04-11%20a%20la%28s%29%2010.06.26%20AM.png?dl=0 20:03:53 yeah, it's broken in tor browser :/ 20:03:58 :( 20:04:04 oh 20:04:12 thx 20:04:13 I think the reason it isn’t working for brade (and me too) is because we have disabled the stuff that allows remote control via a website :) 20:04:22 (also disabled in Tor Browser) 20:04:29 ah 20:04:37 So the doorhangers don’t appear. 20:04:54 buggy from scratch :/ 20:05:15 anw, we can think on both options for each kind of user story 20:05:33 yep 20:05:45 we will play more with it next week too 20:05:53 sounds good 20:05:53 If we wanted to show these doorhangers it could presumably all be done locally, so that sort of problem wouldn't be an issue. 20:05:54 * isabela is loving these syncs 20:06:18 arthuredelstein: A simple matter of programming :) 20:06:27 :) 20:06:38 arthuredelstein: good idea 20:06:53 Someone should look at the tech used in Firefox in parallel with Antonela’s work. 20:06:54 :) 20:07:01 mcs: +1 20:07:09 mcs: yes, please 20:07:19 so we create something that then we can build :) 20:07:25 hehehe 20:07:31 that would be helpful :P 20:07:37 haha 20:07:54 alright ppl 20:07:56 we cool? 20:08:15