19:01:05 <isabela> #startmeeting ux and tor browser sync
19:01:05 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Apr  4 19:01:05 2018 UTC.  The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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19:01:14 <isabela> alright people!
19:01:20 * mcs is here too
19:01:23 <hiro> hello bot and humans
19:01:28 <isabela> i think we should start with the circuit display ticket :)
19:01:39 <antonela> thanks arthur for make a to-do list!
19:01:45 <igt0> !
19:01:48 <isabela> o/
19:01:52 <arthuredelstein> np! Here it is: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/24309#comment:34
19:01:57 <isabela> thanks!
19:02:02 <isabela> let me look at it
19:02:14 <arthuredelstein> bikeshed time :)
19:02:26 <isabela> alright
19:02:35 <isabela> should we answer question by question then?
19:02:39 <isabela> it should be easy i think
19:02:40 <GeKo> well, i think we should be hesitating to change much
19:02:40 <antonela> btw, is looking 🔥
19:02:53 <GeKo> it's not the final thing we are building
19:03:04 <GeKo> there will be iterations after that (i hope)
19:03:11 <isabela> yes that is right
19:03:14 <antonela> yep
19:03:16 <arthuredelstein> agreed
19:03:35 <isabela> cool, with that orientation in mind lets try to answer those questions
19:03:45 <isabela> should the icon for relays be added?
19:04:15 <isabela> hehe
19:04:19 <GeKo> fine with me
19:04:21 <isabela> +1 from me
19:04:23 <arthuredelstein> I lean toward "yes" but I also think GeKo is right that it isn't necessary
19:04:27 <antonela> with/without
19:04:27 <antonela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/attachment/ticket/24309/032718.png
19:04:29 <antonela> ^
19:04:41 <isabela> i think other things in the list might not be necessary but i think this one is a good one
19:05:12 <GeKo> yes, the more i think about it the more i agrere
19:05:18 <GeKo> *agree
19:05:30 <arthuredelstein> i like it but the icon itself has a little asymmetry that bothers me :)
19:05:35 <isabela> haha
19:05:36 <antonela> haha
19:05:37 <GeKo> (about the icon being a good thing at least)
19:05:41 <GeKo> oh man
19:05:48 <antonela> i feel you arthur!
19:05:51 <GeKo> now i know what you mean by "bikeshedding"
19:05:59 <isabela> lol
19:06:00 <GeKo> you are doing that with yourself :)
19:06:04 <arthuredelstein> sorry can't help myself
19:06:08 <GeKo> that's a hard one
19:06:12 <GeKo> hehe
19:06:23 <arthuredelstein> bikesheds are always best in green btw
19:06:41 <antonela> so, lets use the icon, I can provide you a balanced one arthur
19:06:46 <isabela> yeah
19:06:49 <GeKo> yay
19:06:50 <isabela> i think anto can play with it
19:06:53 <arthuredelstein> awesome, thanks!
19:06:54 <antonela> yes
19:06:55 <isabela> ok
19:07:05 <isabela> should we have (i)?
19:07:17 <isabela> i would remove it
19:07:20 <GeKo> i think we should
19:07:31 <isabela> i think the text at the bottom can be enough no?
19:07:44 <GeKo> because there is the risk that folks wont read to the bottom
19:07:59 <GeKo> it's quite a large popup
19:08:13 <GeKo> they might just be confused by the every same guard ip
19:08:20 <GeKo> and start asking things anyway
19:08:23 <mcs> There are two things we are trying to teach people: (1) what is a guard and (2) why would it not change when they get a new circuit
19:08:23 <arthuredelstein> we could still have a hidden tooltip or something if users click or hover over the word guard
19:08:28 <isabela> i could not find an example of a tooltip at the doorhanger tho
19:08:30 <mcs> They are very related though
19:08:52 <antonela> as mcs said in the ticket, i also think they are 2 different links
19:08:53 <antonela> yes
19:09:00 <isabela> yes
19:09:03 <antonela> guard and [i] should link to guards documentation
19:09:23 <isabela> hmm
19:09:40 <antonela> the bottom one should link as you commented isa, to Why is the first IP address in my relay circuit always the same? "
19:09:46 <isabela> i am not sure how far away they are from each other tho
19:10:13 <arthuredelstein> We could include the "Learn More" link next to where it says "Guard"
19:10:43 <GeKo> yes, so what was the rationale for splitting this up to begin with?
19:10:58 <arthuredelstein> Or the "Learn more" link could even be at the top next to the title, "Tor Circuit"
19:11:05 <isabela> arthuredelstein: sorry i would prefer to have the (i) then 'learn more' at the circuit
19:11:13 <arthuredelstein> and then a full explanation of what a Tor circuit is, what a guard is, etc.
19:11:36 <antonela> i like it  Tor Circuit [Learn More]
19:11:54 <isabela> hmm
19:12:01 <GeKo> well it depends on what it should say
19:12:30 <GeKo> having a Learn More link next tor "Tor Circuit" pointing to just some guard related thing
19:12:33 <antonela> actually, looks we need to write docs about guards anyways
19:12:35 <mcs> There is also a tradeoff here between what is useful for new users and long term usabiity for everyone (clutter within the display may get annoying)
19:12:39 <GeKo> does not seem like a good idea to me
19:12:49 <arthuredelstein> I'm just thinking there are lots of things we could explain about Tor circuits, not just guards
19:12:50 <antonela> mcs, you right
19:12:59 <arthuredelstein> For example the concept that an exit node is the IP address a website sees
19:13:05 <isabela> mcs: agree that is why i think leaving guard in purple should be enough
19:13:26 <isabela> mcs: the learn more link at the end should go to a good doc that explain what Guard is and why they may not change
19:13:37 <isabela> mcs: which is a mix of what we have on support and on the manual
19:13:46 <isabela> that is why i think i would update the manual
19:13:48 <isabela> and just link it there
19:13:57 <antonela> guard[i] -> What is a guard node?  // Learn More -> How circuits works?
19:14:03 <antonela> maybe?
19:14:10 <isabela> i would just keep it in purple
19:14:15 <antonela> yes
19:14:19 <isabela> maybe even make the one at the bottle purple too
19:14:23 <isabela> to look the same
19:14:33 <isabela> and know that when we mean it wont change is that first ip that we are talking about
19:14:36 <GeKo> isabela: i think i still have not understood why that text and the Learn More link is basically detached from the GUARD string on the circuit
19:14:37 <antonela> well, the blue is the default blue for buttons
19:14:38 <isabela> and no (i)
19:15:04 <GeKo> should it be next to the Load a New Circuit item because users might encounter that issue when clicking on this button?
19:15:24 <isabela> GeKo: because is more related tot he action of requesting a new circuit
19:15:26 <antonela> GeKo: it was the first idea
19:15:30 <isabela> GeKo: that is what users expect it to change
19:15:30 <antonela> yes
19:15:47 <GeKo> i see
19:15:54 <isabela> GeKo: having it as guard in purple in the menu and repeating it near the button i think is a good way to indicate what we are talking about
19:16:12 <antonela> oh i see what do you mean isa
19:16:13 <antonela> yes
19:16:23 <GeKo> okay, fine with me for trying it out
19:16:26 <antonela> we can have GUARD [I] with the same style
19:16:37 <isabela> remove the [i]
19:16:40 <antonela> yes
19:16:43 <isabela> :)
19:16:47 <isabela> antonela understands me hehe
19:16:54 <arthuredelstein> I might need a drawing :)
19:17:26 <isabela> maybe antonela can provide
19:17:55 <arthuredelstein> or just a summary is fine too. So the word  Guard in both places in purple, with no (i)?
19:18:02 <isabela> yes
19:18:30 <isabela> the goal here is to show the user guard is the first server/relay in the circuit
19:18:32 <antonela> bAk299FhVO6aF2LLS4yGhw
19:18:36 <antonela> https://share.riseup.net/#bAk299FhVO6aF2LLS4yGhw
19:18:37 <isabela> as well as to set the right expectation it wont change
19:18:47 <GeKo> i am all for getting some connection between the string on the display to the text below the button
19:18:48 <isabela> so keep the copy near the button
19:19:02 <isabela> and the learn more will go to the manual / and we should update the manual
19:19:07 <GeKo> because the guard problem is there as well even if users never click on the button
19:19:17 <GeKo> "problem"
19:19:35 <isabela> antonela: can we have it purple as well?
19:19:43 <antonela> https://share.riseup.net/#SJezSQPHcwu13MeuOy95Qw
19:19:44 <antonela> yes
19:19:45 <antonela> lol
19:19:48 <isabela> lol
19:20:05 <isabela> tx
19:20:12 <antonela> (:
19:20:29 <isabela> how do ppl feel about it?
19:20:35 <GeKo> i like it
19:20:43 <igt0> joining the bikesheeding party, those colors are seeing by color blind people?
19:20:52 <arthuredelstein> me too
19:21:01 <isabela> probably not but the capslock will help there
19:21:07 <GeKo> yes
19:21:07 <antonela> igt0 i passed the purple through a test and seems working
19:21:14 <antonela> because color blind people doesnt have problems with purple
19:21:18 <antonela> i learnt :)
19:21:23 <GeKo> (i had the some concern but the CAPS came to the rescue)
19:21:31 <arthuredelstein> the colors don't seem to be essential in any case, provided the contrast is there with the background
19:22:03 <isabela> yep
19:22:22 <isabela> so we answered questions 2 and 3 i guess
19:22:36 <isabela> How should we label the nodes? IP addresses or node types?
19:22:39 <isabela> i am ok with not doing this
19:22:44 <antonela> https://share.riseup.net/#W6XXMR3BKm89lgCEQba5zg
19:22:46 <isabela> keep as it is
19:22:49 <GeKo> +1
19:22:52 <mcs> one danger is that users who want to learn generally about guards won’t click “Learn More” in that bottom section, but hopefully they will figure out to do so.
19:23:12 <antonela> without caps ^
19:23:35 <isabela> mcs: true, we can look into it and learn more for a second interaction
19:23:47 <arthuredelstein> i think the ip address is useful particularly for the exit node. Whether we want it in the middle node is perhaps more debatable
19:23:58 <isabela> i would keep the ips
19:24:03 <isabela> just as it is
19:24:30 <isabela> antonela: about all caps or not - lets look how its in the glossary i think is not all caps
19:24:41 <antonela> cool
19:24:50 <isabela> we also should look what is there for 'relays' or 'nodes'
19:24:53 <antonela> i just shared a mock without caps, using Guard
19:24:57 <isabela> not sure if that matters
19:24:58 <antonela> oh yes
19:25:07 <isabela> antonela: saw the mock
19:25:14 <isabela> :)
19:25:24 <arthuredelstein> ok! leaving ips as it is for now
19:25:28 <antonela> who is the person to point for it? steph?
19:25:29 <GeKo> isabela: keeping the ips means for the guard too, right?
19:25:34 <antonela> i mean relays or nodes
19:25:46 <isabela> antonela: i think is a mix of steph and community team
19:25:48 <isabela> hehe
19:25:49 <antonela> cool
19:25:57 <antonela> do we want to show the guard ip?
19:26:04 <isabela> yep
19:26:07 <isabela> that i think is cool
19:26:14 <arthuredelstein> i think for privacy it's maybe better not to show the guard ip
19:26:15 <GeKo> yes, please
19:26:27 <antonela> what is function of the guard if we are showing the ip?
19:26:34 <antonela> not sure
19:27:09 <isabela> arthuredelstein: why for privacy?
19:27:15 <arthuredelstein> if people share screenshots then they are potentially revealing their guard ip
19:27:16 <isabela> we show now
19:27:20 <GeKo> arthuredelstein: i think the circuit display should show the circuit as good as it can
19:27:20 <isabela> ahh
19:27:49 <GeKo> and users might actually want to know where they enter the network
19:27:50 <isabela> antonela: that might matter for some users, from where they are connecting from
19:27:58 <GeKo> yes
19:27:59 <antonela> no, i know
19:28:04 <antonela> but
19:28:23 * antonela is thinking
19:28:25 <mcs> not to add a lot of complexity, but could we come up with some way to reveal the guard IP? (some kind of toggle)
19:28:48 <arthuredelstein> it could be shown on hover
19:28:55 <arthuredelstein> as a tooltip or similar
19:29:00 <isabela> i think relays names and ips are important info to provide in a convenient way
19:29:09 <isabela> names == guard exit etc
19:29:13 <isabela> not their real names
19:29:14 <isabela> hehe
19:29:20 <isabela> but i will not add names to this convo
19:29:21 <isabela> :)
19:29:27 <isabela> leave it for ip with guard or not :)
19:29:53 <arthuredelstein> another crazy addition could be linking to the relay page on metrics.tpo. But that's maybe a future iteration
19:30:05 <isabela> yep hehe
19:30:11 <isabela> ok people ip + guard?
19:30:39 <GeKo> i am fine with the fancy hover idea from arthur
19:31:01 <isabela> for all of them?
19:31:07 <arma4> my first inclination is yes list ip address for guard, if you're listing it for other relays. people won't share screen shots that much, and telling somebody your guard isn't *so* bad
19:31:28 <arma4> a lot of other people have your guard as their guard too
19:31:30 <GeKo> isabela: showing definitely, yes
19:31:50 <antonela> https://share.riseup.net/#q4n8UNLgfgdI4r36OlDauQ
19:31:51 <GeKo> and arma makes some good points
19:32:14 <arthuredelstein> OK, sounds like we have a consensus
19:32:15 <GeKo> antonela: yes, looks good to me
19:32:17 <mcs> also, in favor of showing IP is that sometimes the country is wrong due to geoloc DB issues (as I understand it)
19:32:26 <GeKo> good one
19:32:34 <mcs> someone might want to check for themselves :)
19:32:47 <arma4> if their screenshot includes a destination website, they're revealing a lot more than their guard ip :)
19:33:31 <isabela> coolio
19:33:40 <isabela> antonela: thanks for sharing the mock too
19:33:54 <antonela> is okey, i think we go so fast when we have this meetings
19:33:55 <antonela> :D
19:33:55 <isabela> Call it "Tor Circuit" or "Tor Path"?
19:34:05 <isabela> i am in favor to stay with 'circuit'
19:34:16 <arma4> in favor of tor path: circuit is weird technical lingo that isn't immediately obvious
19:34:20 <GeKo> does that string get translated?
19:34:30 <arma4> in favor of tor circuit: it's the word that a lot of other people will be using, and having two words could be confusing
19:34:36 <isabela> because ppl use it all over already and if we change terminology like that we need a big effort to make sure it propagates
19:34:47 <arthuredelstein> it will need to be translated -- we don't have exactly that string yet
19:35:18 <arma4> whichever we pick, we will want to work hard to get the translated versions of the word to be good
19:35:39 <isabela> i think ppl has already a way to translate tor circuit
19:35:40 <GeKo> i am for staying with circuit then
19:35:45 <isabela> as its used in other places
19:35:53 <arma4> (the word comes from ATM literature. so i bet in each language there is some agreed upon thing for what an ATM circuit is called.)
19:36:05 <isabela> yep
19:36:31 <arma4> (as in, 'circuit switching' vs 'packet switching')
19:37:10 <arthuredelstein> maybe the wikipedia article names give a good clue for translators: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_switching
19:37:53 <isabela> circuito
19:38:07 <arma4> sounds like the esperanto word
19:38:11 <antonela> lol
19:38:14 <isabela> esperanto will take over
19:38:18 <antonela> for sure not
19:38:25 <isabela> :D
19:38:32 <antonela> hahaha
19:38:33 <GeKo> bikeshed time it seems :)
19:38:39 <isabela> !
19:38:41 <isabela> alright ppl :)
19:38:46 <antonela> okey, the button copy is up to review
19:38:50 <isabela> i think we can move on and stay with circuit?
19:38:56 <arma4> works for me
19:39:03 <antonela> yep
19:39:06 <arthuredelstein> ok!
19:39:12 <isabela> ok last question here!
19:39:13 <isabela> What text for "Reload Circuit" button?
19:39:21 <isabela> i like mcs and brade suggestion
19:39:27 <antonela> yes
19:39:27 <isabela> i think it could work with the button size too
19:39:40 <antonela> both will work with our button area, so we are good to try them
19:39:43 <isabela> let me get the copy
19:40:01 <antonela> "New Circuit for this Site"; "Reload Using a New Circuit"
19:40:02 <isabela> New Circuit for this Site
19:40:06 <isabela> yeah
19:40:14 <isabela> i like the New Circuit for this Site
19:40:27 <GeKo> +1
19:40:33 <antonela> yes
19:40:34 <mcs> I think that is what we have in the Torbutton (toolbar) menu now, isn’t it?
19:40:40 <isabela> yep
19:40:47 <antonela> it is
19:40:51 <mcs> or close
19:40:53 <isabela> New Tor Circuit
19:40:55 <isabela> it says
19:40:56 <isabela> hehe
19:41:16 <isabela> either way
19:41:17 <isabela> i like that
19:41:33 <antonela> the final one -> https://share.riseup.net/#KSdPRsEy3NtjM7HhAe4h0Q
19:42:05 <GeKo> yo, looks good!
19:42:08 <antonela> if is ok, i'll upload it into the ticket
19:42:10 <arthuredelstein> instant mockups are the best
19:42:13 <antonela> :D
19:42:18 <arma4> isabela: to be clear, brade and mcs offered two conflicting suggestions
19:42:33 <mcs> yup, b/c we don’t always agree :)
19:42:40 <GeKo> yes, we picked the better one
19:42:40 <isabela> heheh
19:43:11 <isabela> arma4: we cool?
19:43:19 <arma4> yes
19:43:31 <isabela> antonela: please update the ticket with your mock and say this was the answer we all agreed on hehe
19:43:34 <antonela> done
19:43:35 <isabela> this was easy!
19:43:36 <arthuredelstein> yay, thank you everyone
19:43:47 * arma4 should have said 'sounds like the esperanto wordo'
19:43:49 <isabela> antonela: do you want to share stuff on the other work?
19:43:55 <antonela> yes
19:43:59 <isabela> security control
19:44:04 <GeKo> arthuredelstein: thanks for the summary, it was really helpful to get us focused
19:44:11 <isabela> yes indeed!!
19:44:14 <isabela> thank you
19:44:14 <antonela> yesss
19:44:29 <antonela> security control -> I have notes and mockups and questions
19:44:41 <antonela> https://pad.riseup.net/p/security-slider-anto-notes
19:44:44 <antonela> ^ notes
19:45:29 <antonela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/attachment/ticket/25658/25658.png
19:45:37 <antonela> ^proposal v0 based on GeKo's
19:45:53 <antonela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/attachment/ticket/25658/25658-exploration.png
19:45:57 <antonela> ^ some exploration
19:46:48 <antonela> so, maybe we can use the notes as a guide, feel free to write/delete/comment/whatever
19:47:04 <isabela> so many goodies!
19:48:03 * arma4 reminds people to remember red-green colorblind as a thing
19:48:21 <GeKo> antonela: i am a bit overwhelmed. should we add things to the pad right now?
19:48:27 <GeKo> or should we start a discussion here?
19:48:42 <antonela> i think that maybe i should update the ticket so people have time to review it and read everything ?
19:48:46 <antonela> what do you think?
19:49:04 <GeKo> it depends on what we want to achieve in the remaining meeting time
19:49:29 <GeKo> (but updating the ticket is a good thing anyway)
19:49:40 <arma4> putting an S in the shield makes us look like the S in the noscript circle or the S in the https-everywhere square
19:49:55 <isabela> snake S
19:49:55 <antonela> since we have 10 mins maybe i just put it over the table and we can start to talk about ui
19:50:07 <antonela> arma4: is not working because all our states start with S
19:50:12 <antonela> Safe, Safer, Safety
19:50:12 <antonela> lol
19:50:42 <arma4> yep. +, ., -
19:50:46 <arma4> ., +, ++
19:50:49 <antonela> so, i'll update the ticket with all this and we can work on it asynch
19:50:59 <isabela> i would put our thing to the top tho
19:51:09 <isabela> at the setting page
19:51:12 <arthuredelstein> antonela: is that security slider stretching like a rubberband? it looks cool
19:51:27 <isabela> and called it 'Tor Browser Security Preferences'
19:51:28 <isabela> maybe?
19:52:04 <antonela> yep
19:52:11 <antonela> basically, i think the slider as User Interface doesnt make sense at this point
19:52:29 <isabela> true
19:52:41 <isabela> we can have the icons back in the settings too
19:52:50 <antonela> yes we can
19:52:57 <isabela> so if they check an option the icon is near that option and they see the same icon on the bar
19:53:06 <isabela> repeat repeat repeat
19:53:07 <isabela> :)
19:53:14 <arma4> the slider had two goals originally i think: give users some intuition about what's going on, and try to put users in as few categories as possible, so they can blend with each other
19:53:28 <antonela> yes, i read everything i found about the process
19:53:36 <GeKo> oh, so we think of getting the icon on the toolbar then as i first envisioned?
19:53:46 <GeKo> it seemed to be a contested idea in rome
19:53:52 <antonela> yes
19:54:21 <GeKo> or just the info properties without making it easy to shoot oneself in the foot?
19:54:29 <arthuredelstein> i think a toolbar button would be fine if it opens and highlights the security slider on a new tab under about:preferences for example
19:54:41 <arthuredelstein> when the user clicks on it
19:54:48 <antonela> the problem with the security settings right now is extremely related with the use of the slider
19:55:21 <isabela> arthuredelstein: yes i  like that
19:55:22 <arma4> "drag this thing away from its default. the farther you drag it, the safer you'll be! sorry you have a small screen, so your safety is limited"
19:55:40 <isabela> i think no draging would be good now that we have icons representing states
19:55:56 <isabela> we can have them in order and ppl can select
19:56:24 * isabela looks for photo from rome
19:56:25 <isabela> one sec
19:56:36 <GeKo> arthuredelstein: yes, good idea
19:56:44 <mcs> I think that opening the settings in about:preferences reinforces the idea that it is a global setting (I think I am agreeing with Arthur)
19:56:54 <GeKo> yes
19:57:17 <isabela> oh i dont have that one
19:57:26 <isabela> mcs: yep
19:57:41 <arthuredelstein> that way the toolbar button can also show the current security state at all times, which is a nice thing to have
19:57:42 <isabela> ppl we have 2 min left
19:58:20 <isabela> maybe we follow up via ticket and sync again on this next wed
19:58:24 <isabela> how is that?
19:58:29 <GeKo> +1
19:58:34 <isabela> antonela: is that cool?
19:58:38 <antonela> yes sure
19:58:45 <GeKo> i'll update the proposal picking up arthur's idea
19:58:51 <isabela> great
19:59:08 <isabela> i will add a ticket to the circuit display one (child ticket)
19:59:13 <isabela> to make sure we have the manual updated
19:59:35 <isabela> ok
19:59:39 <isabela> i will end the bot!
19:59:41 <isabela> cool?
19:59:50 <GeKo> and adding the about:preferences entry which is a good idea, too
20:00:17 <GeKo> (to the proposal)
20:00:18 <GeKo> yes
20:00:27 <mcs> good stuff!
20:00:29 <igt0> on mobile, about:preferences would be ideal (since we don't have lot of space in the toolbar)
20:00:45 <antonela> igt0: yes
20:00:47 <GeKo> mcs: he i was about to type exactly that :)
20:01:02 <mcs> I am learning
20:01:06 <mcs> :)
20:01:10 <GeKo> lol
20:01:28 <arthuredelstein> gotta run. thanks again everyone!
20:01:39 <GeKo> igt0: yes, should be easy to have logic showing /hiding the button based on whether we are on mobile or not
20:01:40 <isabela> igt0: great!
20:01:45 <antonela> thankssss! this meetings are the best!
20:01:47 <isabela> arthuredelstein: thanks o/
20:01:58 <isabela> ok killing the bot!
20:02:02 <isabela> #endmeeting