14:59:50 <karsten> #startmeeting metrics team
14:59:50 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Dec 15 14:59:50 2016 UTC.  The chair is karsten. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:59:50 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:06 <karsten> hi! I saw iwakeh, RaBe, linda, and hiro.
15:00:14 <karsten> agenda pad is here: https://pad.riseup.net/p/3M7VyrTVgjlF
15:00:30 <karsten> I guess we already have a lot of topics. should we add more?
15:00:46 <linda> Hmm
15:00:48 <linda> one sec
15:00:53 <karsten> sure!
15:01:58 <lukechilds> I posted here earlier and was asked to come back for this meeting
15:02:01 <linda> I don't see anything to add.
15:02:07 <lukechilds> I wrote a web app for using tor like atlas
15:02:10 <karsten> ah, hi lukechilds. tor explorer, right?
15:02:13 <lukechilds> demo here: https://tor-explorer-10kapart2016.azurewebsites.net/
15:02:15 <lukechilds> yep
15:02:33 <linda> I'm trying to consolidate all the information. @_@
15:02:47 <karsten> added to the agenda, lukechilds!
15:02:54 <lukechilds> thanks :)
15:02:54 <hiro> karsten: should we add this https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/20928 ?
15:03:12 <linda> I haven't been able to catch up with everyone's comments yet (I was running user interviews this morning, and my usual work day starts right at metrics time so I am disoriented)
15:03:21 <linda> but maybe I should lead the discussion and you guys can remind me of your comments.
15:03:28 <linda> I have nothing to add to the agenda.
15:03:41 <karsten> hiro: added.
15:04:03 <karsten> linda: my plan was to go through the comments we have.
15:04:15 <karsten> linda: starting with yours, then mine, then whatever else we come up with.
15:04:16 <linda> Oh, okay!
15:04:22 <linda> karsten: that sounds good.
15:04:27 <karsten> okay!
15:04:32 <karsten> * UX (linda)
15:04:39 <karsten> - design discussion
15:04:57 <linda> Rafe, did you get a chanc to go through my pdf? I mentioned things that I liked.
15:05:04 <linda> I'll focus on things we need to talk about here.
15:05:24 <RaBe> yes, i have seen your pdf, thanks! i really like this kind of feedback :D
15:05:34 <linda> - should we have the icons up at the horizontal navigation bar? Those icons seem distracting, now that we have 6 other icons on the main page.
15:05:38 <linda> RaBe:  :)
15:05:53 * karsten likes those icons.
15:06:00 <RaBe> i'd vote to keep the icons (sorry linda). i think we have a very text based page, with nearly no graphical stuff
15:06:03 <RaBe> so every icon counts
15:06:13 <linda> okay! :)
15:06:36 <linda> I wasn't feeling THAT strongly on this, since those icons are not overpowering and don't distract from the main 6 in the front.
15:06:41 * iwakeh likes the icons too. Will they be visible in high-sec mode?
15:06:51 <karsten> iwakeh: probably not.
15:06:52 <linda> And I realize that they would be the only icons on non-icon pages (like about, news, etc.)
15:07:23 <linda> I think that we all now agree that icons are good?
15:07:24 <RaBe> if we want to keep icons in high sec mode, we have to replace them by PNG images
15:07:30 <linda> iwakeh: do you have an opinion on this?
15:07:33 <RaBe> (even for all other modes)
15:07:33 <karsten> :(
15:07:52 <iwakeh> Is png problematic ?
15:08:06 <RaBe> it's just not so scalable like font vector icons
15:08:16 <iwakeh> ok.
15:08:26 <RaBe> also, we're limited to the icons i implement now, not all font awesome icons...
15:08:38 <karsten> I'd say let's start with icons and consider changing this later if we have to.
15:08:45 <linda> karsten: +1
15:08:55 <linda> and I now support them again
15:09:00 <karsten> haha
15:09:05 * iwakeh thinking ...
15:09:05 <RaBe> :D
15:09:14 <linda> the next thing that I was concerned about was the navigation bar highlighting
15:09:25 <linda> it's on page 3 of my comments
15:09:26 <linda> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B36YkvDtVNK_YkcyZVZWZk5PeHM/view
15:09:50 <RaBe> i already added a highlighting there, some minutes ago
15:10:01 <karsten> so fast.
15:10:05 <linda> ! <3
15:10:06 <linda> okay
15:10:08 <hiro> Rabe: would it be a bit overkill to make different pngs for different resolutions? Where each png is okish for the media-query range it is used? Might be too much work...
15:10:09 <iwakeh> RaBe: it looks fine, now.
15:10:29 <karsten> linda: going back to page 1 in your doc,
15:10:33 <karsten> what about font sizes?
15:10:37 <linda> hmm
15:10:47 <linda> I guess I skipped that one because I didn't think that was too big of a deal
15:10:48 <RaBe> hiro: no there'd be no overkill, i'd do one high res spritemap and just use different sizes of the image...
15:11:10 <linda> I think it could use adjustments but I am not a trained graphics person so I don
15:11:25 <RaBe> on my oldschool not-retina display the text is pretty big... (no, it's already a flat screen!)
15:11:32 <iwakeh> it scales fine.
15:11:36 <linda> 't know what would be the right size. although I have guidelines like how we should have about 3 sizes and be consistent with it, etc.
15:11:50 <linda> hmm, I just meant that the text is too small with respect to the other size of text.
15:11:56 <linda> Not that it doesn't scale or anything.
15:12:11 <linda> I'm fine with letting it go though.
15:12:25 <RaBe> for now, it's the standard bootstrap text size for floating text. we could increase it for the "buttons" on the home page?
15:12:49 <linda> RaBe: maybe not. Since I think that keeping the sizes to a minimum is also good.
15:12:58 <RaBe> ok :)
15:13:03 <linda> okay, I'll go in order now
15:13:04 <iwakeh> Those sizes would be easy to tweak later?
15:13:19 <RaBe> sure
15:13:24 <karsten> hiro: let's keep those pngs with different sizes in mind if we want to switch to pngs later.
15:13:36 <linda> karsten: +1
15:13:59 <karsten> linda: okay, please pick the items that you think are most relevant to discuss. I just thought you had overlooked that one.
15:14:08 <linda> karsten: hehe okay
15:14:25 <linda> i want to get rid fo the "overview" submenu in the metrics dropdown
15:14:30 <karsten> +1
15:14:43 <RaBe> +1 (just added it because we talked about it...)
15:14:55 <karsten> right.
15:15:00 <linda> RaBe: I realize this. sorry! :( some things are just more clear when we see it..
15:15:05 <linda> RaBe: thanks for being patient with us
15:15:10 <karsten> +1 :)
15:15:21 <RaBe> :D
15:15:40 <linda> I also want to get rid of the side submenus on pages like about (pg 4 in comments) now that we have the submenus for each page..
15:15:57 <linda> (which is also something we explicitly told RaBe to put in... lol..)
15:16:09 <karsten> yeah, navigation is a difficult topic.
15:16:15 <linda> (>﹏<)
15:16:19 <RaBe> i kind of like the sidebar menus, but for optical reasons...
15:16:23 <karsten> it also depends a bit on the content and how we distribute it over pages.
15:17:02 <iwakeh> Both menus are gone when scrolling down.
15:17:12 <linda> iwakeh: that was my point.
15:17:25 <linda> iwakeh: it just seems redundant and equal amount of work to use.
15:17:38 <karsten> I wonder if we should postpone this (important!) discussion by a week, when we have a better idea of the content.
15:17:49 <iwakeh> fine with me.
15:17:57 <linda> sure.
15:18:04 <RaBe> i don't like text that uses 100% of the page width... perhaps we could use boxes instead with other information, like "contact" on the about page...
15:18:36 <linda> RaBe: I don't see what you mean.
15:18:38 <karsten> or, maybe we can discuss just to lay out options?
15:18:45 <karsten> not with the attempt to decide something today?
15:18:52 <karsten> because I feel we cannot make such a decision yet.
15:18:55 <linda> RaBe: **I dont't understand, but I think I agree with you
15:18:59 <iwakeh> RaBe: is it difficult to make the menu (right one) float with the scrolling?
15:19:20 <karsten> .oO( javascript? )
15:19:24 <RaBe> it would work for the users that have JS enabled...
15:19:46 <karsten> which would be fine as long as non-js users still have it at the top.
15:19:56 <iwakeh> hmm.
15:20:02 <iwakeh> yes.
15:20:04 <linda> if it floated with it, I see the value in it.
15:20:10 <linda> but only if the page is very long.
15:20:18 <RaBe> let's say, i'll add some JS if we decide to keep the side menu :)
15:20:25 <linda> :)
15:20:27 <karsten> hehe
15:20:28 <iwakeh> fine :-)
15:20:40 <linda> I think that depending on the length of the content, we might want to add it.
15:20:50 <linda> for instance, I feel like the research page didn't have it and iddn't need it.
15:20:56 <karsten> right.
15:20:58 <linda> The about page might not if we get rid of the terms and faq.
15:21:05 <iwakeh> There is not all content yet.
15:21:07 <linda> but I am okay with the side bar as an idea.
15:21:14 <linda> depending on if it is necessary.
15:21:23 <linda> okay, I only have one more main point.
15:21:32 <linda> it's how to layout the tools (tools + sources) section.
15:21:50 <linda> (page 6 in comments) I really like how this looks. and I would love to keep it looking this way..
15:21:51 <RaBe> I'd really like to keep at least some of the big icons...
15:21:56 <linda> RaBe: +1
15:22:19 <linda> I would love it if we just pared down the list and had icons for all of them, with placeholder onions if need be.
15:22:43 <karsten> well,
15:22:54 <karsten> I think we cannot make the list much shorter.
15:22:57 <linda> I actually don't think metrics should be the place to host all this information, but it should be Tor.
15:23:05 <karsten> oh.
15:23:09 <linda> But that's a can of worms.
15:23:11 <iwakeh> oh, it's metrics related.
15:23:18 <iwakeh> the content.
15:23:23 <karsten> yeah.
15:23:28 <iwakeh> I'd favor smaller icons.
15:23:29 <karsten> with veeery few exceptions.
15:23:33 <RaBe> i just checked the doc: 22 items, that'd be 6 "icon lines"
15:23:47 <linda> Hmm.
15:23:51 <karsten> so, ideally it would be really simple to add something.
15:24:02 <karsten> like lukechilds' tor explorer that just came up a few weeks/months ago.
15:24:08 <linda> How about we have icons for the services that are (what metrics uses | tor-official ones) and a list for the rest?
15:24:12 <karsten> we should be able to add that to metrics really quickly.
15:24:23 <iwakeh> Could there be a switch (other than text-browsing) to get a list instead of icons?
15:24:31 <karsten> needing an icon would delay that. though of course it might go in without icon or the placeholder.
15:24:42 <karsten> linda: sounds plausible.
15:25:00 <linda> My compromise was to have 3 sections:
15:25:09 <linda> 1) things that metrics uses to take measurements (sources)
15:25:09 <karsten> iwakeh: like on a shopping site, gallery or list display? :)
15:25:17 <iwakeh> yes :-)
15:25:22 <RaBe> iwakeh: i could add that
15:25:23 <linda> 2) things that are officially tor
15:25:26 <linda> 3) rest
15:25:31 <linda> and 1) and 2) would have icons
15:25:38 <karsten> linda: I have a few thoughts on the pad for structuring content.. :)
15:25:54 <karsten> linda: I could imagine having icons for some but not all entries.
15:25:55 <linda> karsten: doesn't see it? ...
15:25:58 <iwakeh> RaBe: would be cool.  There'd be others who don't want those (nice) icons there.
15:26:13 <karsten> linda: lines 33 and below.
15:26:42 <karsten> linda: but, that's part of the content discussion.
15:26:47 <linda> karsten: oh!
15:26:52 * linda likes those too
15:27:10 <RaBe> so, i'll add 1) a smaller icon view 2) a list view 3) a switch to toggle the big icons to list view?
15:27:34 <linda> RaBe: this sounds unnecessarily complicated.
15:27:45 <linda> I would favor a list view if we have "too many" for icons.
15:27:54 <karsten> can we put this on hold until, say, monday?
15:27:55 <linda> If we aren't going to take any off, I think a list might be better. :(
15:28:07 <linda> karsten: any reason on monday?
15:28:17 <iwakeh> time
15:28:21 <linda> iwakeh: fair
15:28:23 <linda> I'm done
15:28:26 <karsten> ah, just to have the content discussion and tomorrow to tweak things.
15:28:27 <linda> sorry
15:28:30 <linda> yeah
15:28:44 <linda> if its any consolaton my comments on the content are minimal
15:28:56 <linda> Lets go through other people's design comments
15:28:59 <karsten> okay, should I quickly go through my design comments?
15:29:02 <linda> yes
15:29:04 <iwakeh> sure.
15:29:05 <karsten> 2. Metrics: Would it make sense to replace "Language" with the two-letter ISO 639-1 language code ("EN"), and list languages in the dropdown together with their two-letter codes?  This might even fit in the medium resolution and wouldn't have to be left out.
15:29:19 * iwakeh agrees.
15:29:21 <linda> +1 sure!
15:29:40 <karsten> https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/navigation-sidebar.pdf
15:29:41 <linda> I just wanted some text to indicate it being a language thing and to take up slightly more real eastate
15:29:53 <karsten> just as input to think about, not to make a decision.
15:29:56 <iwakeh> And display the chosen language?
15:29:58 <karsten> linda: makes sense.
15:30:21 <karsten> well, it could also say "Language (EN)".
15:30:25 <karsten> dunno
15:30:44 <karsten> probably moot for now, as there are no translations. ;) but, good to have the option to add some later.
15:30:48 <RaBe> i've seen [icon] [langcode] quite often
15:31:05 * linda feels okay as long as there is more than just the globe icon
15:31:10 <karsten> yep.
15:31:12 <iwakeh> Then we'd have to maintain flags.
15:31:17 <karsten> ah, no flags.
15:31:18 <iwakeh> for the icons.
15:31:27 <karsten> the globe icon, right?
15:31:49 <RaBe> hmm, both :) i'd agree that we do not want to maintain flag icons
15:32:06 <RaBe> just the globe and "EN"
15:32:10 <iwakeh> I think choice of language is really text based; and can be displayed as such?
15:32:32 <karsten> without globe?
15:33:02 <karsten> anyway, let's not overengineer this part.
15:33:12 <iwakeh> I don't mind and don't need the globe there ;-)
15:33:26 <karsten> so, the linked pdf is something for the navigation discussion.
15:33:38 <karsten> for later.
15:33:40 <RaBe> there has to be an icon or flag, because you might not understand what the chinese symbols say (if you ever translate it to chinese...) :D
15:33:49 <karsten> true.
15:34:06 <karsten> last item under design:
15:34:07 <karsten> 5. Metrics: Should we remove the "go to start of the page" button at the bottom?  Or do users tend to want such things?
15:34:28 <RaBe> i use it all the times, but that's just me...
15:34:36 <karsten> ok.
15:34:39 * linda has no strong opinion
15:34:46 <linda> but not to bring up something dead..
15:34:49 <linda> karsten: I like the side bar on the side. this would solve our weird horizontal bar + side table of contents problem. if it could remain static while the content of the page scrolled, I think this is brilliant.
15:34:53 <linda> https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/navigation-sidebar.pdf
15:35:06 <linda> I also like how the submenus remain visible while you are on the particular subpage.
15:35:20 <RaBe> +1
15:35:21 <linda> I assume it would also work for the other pages (about, tools, research, etc.)
15:35:29 <iwakeh> RaBe: hmm, I didn't find the globe that telling (but still nice).  It can just stay.
15:35:51 <karsten> linda, RaBe: okay, let's keep this in mind then, as one possible option.
15:35:59 <linda> iwakeh: it's not great, but I think it's nice to have, to be consistent (all the other items have an icon on the bar right now)
15:36:16 <linda> iwakeh: so that's basically my reasoning. that, and ONLY the globe was def not favorable
15:36:18 <iwakeh> The typical tree layout with location link (the one on top).
15:36:32 <linda> karsten: sure.
15:37:03 * linda feels very strongly and likes this new design better though
15:37:09 * linda wiggles
15:37:11 <iwakeh> linda: that's a good point (icons for everything on top, too)
15:37:19 <karsten> hehe
15:37:34 <karsten> okay, anything else on the design?
15:37:42 * linda wiggles some more
15:38:02 <iwakeh> With all the content metrics has, such a standard layout is surely good to make users "feel at home".
15:38:23 <RaBe> keep in mind it all has to work responsive
15:38:26 <linda> iwakeh: are you talking about the vertical side bar?
15:38:37 <linda> RaBe:  is the vertical side bar harder to do responsively?
15:38:44 <iwakeh> linda: navigation-sidebar.pdf
15:39:25 <linda> iwakeh: I see. I agree it's nice.
15:39:36 <linda> iwakeh: I was thinking you were talking about that
15:40:28 <karsten> RaBe: what do you think about making that responsively?
15:40:28 <RaBe> i'm sorry, i'm not sure what we're talking about right now. i like to have the submenu visible on each subpage, but i'd veto to have the complete navbar moved to the left...
15:41:05 <karsten> is that not modern? :)
15:41:12 <RaBe> :)
15:41:19 <linda> RaBe: I was specifically talking about moving the navbar to the left.
15:41:20 <iwakeh> old fashioned :-)
15:41:30 <linda> RaBe: but I feared that wasn't very responsive
15:41:31 <karsten> I see.
15:41:32 <RaBe> linda: sorry i misunderstood that...
15:41:56 <karsten> we're all talking about this suggestion, right? https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/navigation-sidebar.pdf
15:41:58 <linda> RaBe: I guess the point of those side floaty menus is to have the same effect as the left, but that seems disconnected because its floating by itself
15:42:01 <linda> karsten: yes
15:42:30 <RaBe> karsten: sorry, i'm not the biggest fan of this ... :)
15:42:47 <karsten> okay. here's another idea: horizontal navbar, dropdown, and "drop-right".
15:42:59 <linda> karsten: ?
15:43:12 <RaBe> karsten: what's that?
15:43:15 <hiro> I actually like the sidebar more than the top bar (generally speaking)
15:43:30 <hiro> like on gitlab for example...
15:43:32 <karsten> http://bootsnipp.com/snippets/featured/multi-level-dropdown-menu-bs3
15:45:07 <iwakeh> hiro: it's way more convenient on a general screen, I agree.
15:45:11 <linda> karsten: I'm having trouble viewing your link
15:45:24 <linda> iwakeh: me too. I just don't know about mobile.
15:45:35 <karsten> "Multi level dropdown menu in Bootstrap 3"
15:46:05 <karsten> anyway, it seems we're getting lost in details now.
15:46:05 <RaBe> karsten: what would we do with it?
15:46:06 <iwakeh> linda: mobile can be turned to wide screen ;-)
15:46:17 <karsten> RaBe: have that as single navigation element for the site.
15:46:23 * linda doesn't like the multi-level thing
15:46:23 <RaBe> linda: we'd have to switch to mobile view a lot earlier...
15:46:45 <hiro> iwakeh: and on mobile they (gitlab) did the small icon side menu and it looks great
15:47:03 <linda> hiro: can you show us?
15:47:15 <hiro> ehhh
15:47:33 <hiro> check any gitlab repository like this: https://git.codecoop.org/schleuder/schleuder3
15:48:15 <iwakeh> the menu can be moved in/out and fixated.
15:48:44 <karsten> looking at the agenda, I think we'll need to move on... :(
15:48:57 <RaBe> i think that'll be some custom work to do, bootstrap won't support this by itself...
15:49:12 <karsten> good to know, RaBe.
15:49:34 <linda> hmm.
15:49:43 <RaBe> this is a major thing, we have to agree now if we want to to this :)
15:50:01 * linda agrees but worries about time
15:50:06 <karsten> yep.
15:50:11 * linda has nothing after this but doesn't want to overrun the meeting
15:50:32 <iwakeh> we shouldn't introduce huge changes now.
15:50:35 * karsten has another meeting in 40 minutes. and there's stuff on the agenda for this one.
15:50:36 <RaBe> however, i don't want to leave you with a menu bar you all don't like...
15:51:34 * karsten likes the nav bar and is just thinking how to make it work for all the content we have.
15:51:38 <linda> RaBe: would it be offensive if we made you draft a parallel version so we can compare?
15:52:03 <linda> I personally would only like the horizontal nav bar if the floaty side menu thing went away
15:52:19 <linda> but I like the veritcal one better because it shows that information without having it be disconnected from the menu
15:52:49 <RaBe> i'll see what i can do :)
15:52:58 <karsten> sorry folks, I think we should discuss about content first and postpone this discussion.
15:53:09 <karsten> can we tell you on monday, RaBe?
15:53:12 <iwakeh> The vertical could also float on long pages?
15:53:25 <iwakeh> but, yes, time is running ...
15:53:25 <RaBe> karsten: yes
15:53:40 <karsten> okay, moving on! :)
15:53:44 <karsten> content.
15:53:53 <karsten> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B36YkvDtVNK_Q3Q3bGdaUFllelk/view
15:54:03 <linda> I think I had nothing major to say.
15:54:07 <karsten> ah ok.
15:54:08 <linda> maybe that we should write more.
15:54:16 <linda> and I liked how things looked.
15:54:23 <karsten> and I put quite some text on the pad 2 hours before the meeting. :)
15:54:24 <linda> Maybe to get rid of some things under tools(tools+sources)
15:54:36 <karsten> yeah, that's a touch one.
15:54:38 <linda> Lets talk about what is on the pad
15:54:46 <iwakeh> it seems under "philosophy" there is text missing?
15:55:03 <karsten> iwakeh: text that was in the doc?
15:55:18 <iwakeh> hmm, didn't compare
15:55:24 <karsten> linda: so, the pad has 7 pages:
15:55:39 <karsten> Metrics, News, Sources, Operation, Development, Research, and Team.
15:55:56 <karsten> and the idea is to put pretty much everything related to the Tor network on one of these pages.
15:56:08 <karsten> rather than on pages like CollecTor or Onionoo.
15:56:22 <karsten> this is what we talked about in berlin, and I really liked that idea.
15:56:31 <karsten> that's why I'm struggling with giving it up and removing items.
15:56:53 <linda> karsten: I see. putting it in metrics rather than those places is a good idea.
15:57:31 <linda> And we're iterating! i don't feel like we are starting over.
15:57:37 <karsten> yes!
15:57:39 <linda> even if we scratch it, it means we've learned.
15:57:55 <karsten> I wonder if we should leave this out on the pad and let it sink until tomorrow or so.
15:58:02 <karsten> maybe with people here editing the pad.
15:58:22 <linda> I think that it would be good to think about this and talk about it. I would like to give it some time.
15:58:23 <karsten> or we could unfreeze the google doc. (not sure how to proceed.)
15:58:33 <linda> Especially because I read the pad 10 minutes before the meeting.
15:58:38 <karsten> yes....
15:58:47 <linda> I would like to finish the design discussion..
15:58:54 <linda> and would be happy tabling this for another meeting.
15:59:03 <linda> and by the design, i just mean the weird bar thing.
15:59:03 * iwakeh likes the pad's a to g topic list.
15:59:06 <karsten> but the design might depend on this one.
15:59:12 <linda> @_@
15:59:14 <linda> right
15:59:38 <iwakeh> And the content is the main thing here :-)
15:59:39 <karsten> should we schedule another meeting on monday, same time, to continue?
15:59:45 <linda> let's do that.
15:59:59 <linda> I'll think about the content over the weekend.
16:00:01 <karsten> how does that work for folks?
16:00:10 <iwakeh> when? what time?
16:00:15 <karsten> 15:00 utc.
16:00:22 <hiro> ok
16:00:25 <iwakeh> works.
16:00:26 <RaBe> great
16:00:32 <karsten> phew. cool!
16:00:34 <linda> :)
16:00:42 <lukechilds> are stopping the entire meeting or jsut rescheduling the current discussion?
16:00:44 <linda> this is part of the process, guys.
16:00:44 <iwakeh> even w/o doodle ;-)
16:00:57 <linda> sorry that I am learning as I am going, since I jsut started.
16:01:09 <linda> But I'm working with OONI and we have had 4 revisions to the web UI to
16:01:11 <linda> *too
16:01:18 <karsten> lukechilds: let's talk about your tool today.
16:01:23 <lukechilds> great
16:01:30 <karsten> should we quickly go through the rest of the agenda?
16:01:36 <linda> it's starndard to iterate through ideas. I think that maybe I could be smoother about it all, or try to schedule it better, but I like working with you all!
16:01:39 <linda> :)
16:01:39 <linda> sure.
16:01:49 <linda> I think I'll duck out for now then, see you on Monday!
16:01:51 <karsten> linda: this is a new experience for me/us, too!
16:01:59 <karsten> linda: thanks! bye!
16:02:14 <RaBe> me too! bye!
16:02:22 <karsten> RaBe: thanks! and bye. :)
16:02:23 <linda> karsten: I'm learning a lot working on OONI (working with a UX person of 5 years( hopefully it will be better next time we do it!
16:02:26 <iwakeh> linda: type to you monday:-)
16:02:35 <linda> lol I would already do things differently haha if I could do it again
16:02:35 <karsten> lukechilds: I did hear about tor explorer before.
16:02:43 <karsten> somebody mentioned it.
16:02:43 <linda> iwakeh: karsten RaBe ٩(^‿^)۶
16:02:43 <lukechilds> oh cool
16:02:59 <karsten> lukechilds: so, the plan is to put a link to it on this newly designed metrics website, so that people can find it.
16:03:09 <lukechilds> awesome
16:03:14 <lukechilds> the current link is temporary
16:03:22 <karsten> it's great that you wrote it, and we totally encourage development of new onionoo clients.
16:03:25 <iwakeh> lukechilds: looks cool.
16:03:36 <karsten> or more generally, development of new things with tor network data.
16:03:46 <lukechilds> it's hosted with a free micrsoft azure account from the competition
16:03:51 <lukechilds> so that will change
16:03:56 <karsten> heh
16:04:05 <karsten> hard to predict how much load it will see.
16:04:19 <karsten> right now we'd have added a link to the onionoo page,
16:04:27 <karsten> but my guess is that nobody looks at that one.
16:04:33 <iwakeh> We could ad the tool of the month to our news?
16:04:49 <karsten> hmmm, yes, we could do such a thing.
16:04:50 <lukechilds> would you mind not sharing the link till I've got a permanent url?
16:04:58 <karsten> lukechilds: ah, sure.
16:05:04 <lukechilds> sweet
16:05:09 <karsten> iwakeh: right now, news are all blocking-related, but we could extend that.
16:05:32 <lukechilds> are you at all interested in releasing this as Atlas v2
16:05:41 <lukechilds> is it's basically the exact same thing
16:05:45 <lukechilds> as*
16:06:02 <ryonaloli> w/ 1
16:06:06 <lukechilds> I'm open to adding any features that are missing
16:06:14 <karsten> well, Atlas is just a name.
16:06:30 <karsten> when we had a fork of Atlas with some features done better, it was called Globe.
16:06:36 <lukechilds> yeah, I was thinking using the same url
16:06:46 <iwakeh> The shiny new tool/site can just have its own name.
16:07:13 <karsten> I guess the question is which one we'd want to highlight and recommend.
16:07:24 <lukechilds> My goal was basically to rewrite Atlas
16:07:27 <karsten> for now, that would be atlas, because we know the code.
16:07:32 <lukechilds> with modern technologies
16:07:33 <karsten> but that could totally change.
16:07:46 <karsten> though we'd want to read the code. I heard it's not much. :)
16:07:49 <lukechilds> and support browsers that don't have js enabled
16:08:04 <iwakeh> That's working fine.
16:08:04 <karsten> so, for now there can be a friendly co-existence of 2 tools. :)
16:08:08 <lukechilds> yeah, it's pretty straight forward
16:08:20 <karsten> not needing js is a feature.
16:08:21 <iwakeh> Yeah, maybe have user counts?
16:08:31 <lukechilds> also onionoo queries are cached on the server side so it would reduce onionoo traffic
16:08:43 <lukechilds> not sure if that's an issue at all
16:08:45 <karsten> also a feature. :)
16:08:53 <lukechilds> and it works offline
16:08:54 <karsten> well, we do have issues there, but with android clients.
16:09:03 <lukechilds> and works well in mobile devices
16:09:19 <karsten> https://munin.torproject.org/torproject.org/omeiense.torproject.org/varnish_req.html
16:09:23 <karsten> see the spikes there?
16:09:32 <karsten> anyway, we're running out of time................
16:09:52 <karsten> so, yes, let's add a link to the metrics page is the short answer. oh, and thanks for working on this!!
16:10:03 <lukechilds> no probs
16:10:07 <karsten> moving on:
16:10:09 <lukechilds> but could you hold off adding the link
16:10:15 <karsten> yep, will do!
16:10:16 <karsten> * opening metrics-team@ for non-subscribers (karsten)
16:10:20 <karsten> concerns?
16:10:21 <lukechilds> I can post back here when I've got a domain
16:10:34 <karsten> yes, can you post on metrics-team@, possibly after subscribing?
16:10:51 <lukechilds> yeah, sure
16:10:57 <iwakeh> great!
16:11:15 <karsten> iwakeh: what do you think about letting non-subscribers post and use that list as contact address?
16:11:31 <iwakeh> karsten: I think opening post after the one-time moderation ought to be fine.
16:11:40 <karsten> cool! let's do it.
16:11:45 <lukechilds> ok, I'm heading off, cheers guys, I'll post updates on metrics-team@
16:11:50 <iwakeh> better for bug-reports.
16:11:50 <karsten> and if it turns out to be a terrible idea, we can always change it later.
16:11:57 <karsten> lukechilds: thanks!
16:12:03 <iwakeh> bye!
16:12:13 <karsten> * timing of metrics-lib release 1.6.0 (Eight tickets: closed: 1, active: 7, new: 5)
16:12:35 <karsten> I won't be able to do much before monday, I'm afraid.
16:12:39 <karsten> focusing on the website.
16:13:10 <iwakeh> do we need the release in 2016?
16:13:15 <karsten> nope.
16:13:21 <karsten> it just seemed like a good idea.
16:13:26 <karsten> that was two weeks ago.
16:13:35 <iwakeh> well, before there were the other tasks :-)
16:13:44 <karsten> alright, january?
16:13:52 <iwakeh> yep.
16:14:10 <karsten> * task: 2016-12: Add a visualization of Tor Browser downloads to Metrics. (Sponsor X 6.3.  Metrics, part 1)
16:14:19 <karsten> this could be quite time consuming.
16:14:27 <karsten> and would happen in the middle of the redesign..
16:14:31 <iwakeh> re-schedule?
16:14:41 <karsten> yeah, I'm afraid we'll have to.
16:15:00 <karsten> done.
16:15:05 <karsten> * task due dec 31: OnionPerf deliverable for Sponsor R: "Run OnionPerf more thoroughly. Maintain the hidden service health measurer codebase."
16:15:11 <iwakeh> ok?
16:15:12 <karsten> that's something I learned yesterday.
16:15:19 <iwakeh> uhh.
16:15:24 <karsten> apparently we should make progress with that one.
16:15:30 <karsten> yeah, ugggh.
16:15:33 <iwakeh> how can I help?
16:15:57 <karsten> would you want to set up an OnionPerf instance?
16:15:59 <hiro> Is there something I can do to help?
16:16:07 <karsten> same question, I guess.
16:16:13 <karsten> and compare results to what Torperf produces.
16:16:26 <karsten> plus, find any remaining bugs that need fixing.
16:16:34 <karsten> OnionPerf is a tool that rob wrote.
16:16:39 <karsten> and that he already uses for months.
16:16:51 <iwakeh> where's the code?
16:16:54 <karsten> https://github.com/robgjansen/onionperf
16:17:10 <karsten> and that I set up before, but then I ran into bugs and out of time.
16:17:12 <karsten> I did report those bugs.
16:17:13 <iwakeh> It'll be transfered to git.tpo?
16:17:24 <karsten> not planned, I think.
16:17:31 <hiro> ok I think I can help with that... do you have something more "verbose" on this task? Like something more than "Run OnionPerf more thoroughly. Maintain the hidden service health measurer codebase." ?
16:17:42 <karsten> ohhh
16:17:47 <karsten> strike that second sentence there.
16:17:57 <karsten> hidden service health measurer is something different.
16:18:00 <karsten> that's dgoulet's.
16:18:02 <iwakeh> aha.
16:18:06 <karsten> :)
16:18:09 <hiro> ok :)
16:18:30 <karsten> I guess you could also look at the onionperf code to see if it looks plausible.
16:18:51 <iwakeh> sure.
16:19:02 <karsten> okay, 20 minutes over time. moving on to the last item:
16:19:03 <hiro> ok
16:19:05 <karsten> * #20928 (hiro)
16:19:09 <iwakeh> so, we just need one instance that hiro will set up?
16:19:14 <karsten> yes, we should do that.
16:19:22 <karsten> iwakeh: in theory, we'll want to run many instances.
16:19:39 <iwakeh> but, we all look at code and bugs etc.
16:19:40 <hiro> where can I set this up? my idea was initially to set this up locally and see
16:19:45 <karsten> iwakeh: and in theory, having two instances means finding twice as many bugs.
16:19:53 <iwakeh> hehe
16:19:59 <karsten> hiro: locally should be fine.
16:20:03 <iwakeh> that's true.
16:20:08 <hiro> and if we can do this separately with iwakeh we can find different things
16:20:09 <hiro> :)
16:20:16 <karsten> yep.
16:20:18 <iwakeh> I can also have a local instance.
16:20:29 <hiro> cool. regarding that ticket. How can we help?
16:20:40 <karsten> so,
16:20:48 <karsten> we'll want to document how we're sanitizing web stats.
16:21:03 <karsten> and this part, documenting how we're collecting those stats in the first place seems related.
16:21:14 <hiro> pl
16:21:19 <hiro> ops s/pl/ok
16:21:20 <karsten> don't ask me where to document this.
16:21:40 <karsten> oh, and related to this, we should take over the webstats sanitizing code soon.
16:21:40 <hiro> Can we start with a document in storm or somewhere?
16:21:43 <karsten> we == metrics team
16:21:51 <iwakeh> wiki page?
16:21:54 <hiro> yeah too
16:21:58 <karsten> sure.
16:22:20 <iwakeh> It should be in the Metrics wiki.
16:22:23 <hiro> but while we work on it and throw there all kind of ideas, maybe we do not want that completely public?
16:22:35 <iwakeh> hiro: that's true.
16:22:43 <iwakeh> private gitlab repo?
16:22:46 <hiro> that was the idea of the storm document or even a pad on riseup?
16:22:58 <karsten> well, we're already doing it.
16:23:06 <karsten> keeping logs and sanitizing them.
16:23:11 <hiro> IMO it doesn't need to be secret, just not "official"
16:23:16 <karsten> this is just about documenting what we're doing.
16:23:19 <karsten> agreed.
16:23:47 <iwakeh> fine. storm is so slow.
16:23:57 <iwakeh> wiki with "under construction"?
16:24:00 <karsten> yeah. :)
16:24:11 <hiro> ok
16:24:22 <karsten> alright.
16:24:27 <karsten> we're out of topics.
16:24:35 <karsten> but I think we didn't keep all action items.
16:24:51 <iwakeh> all, except monday meeting?
16:25:11 <iwakeh> all there Ithink
16:25:13 <karsten> should somebody go through the log and put action items into the pad?
16:25:36 <karsten> it feels we're missing something from the UX discussions.
16:26:01 <karsten> okay, I'll try to do this tomorrow, unless somebody else is quicker.
16:26:01 <iwakeh> we didn't finish that discussion
16:26:08 <karsten> true. :)
16:26:35 <karsten> but it might be useful to write down which parts are still open.
16:26:44 <karsten> anyway, I need to run.
16:26:49 <iwakeh> ok.
16:27:03 <karsten> let's talk more on monday. thank you!
16:27:14 <iwakeh> bye, bye until monday!
16:27:22 <karsten> bye, iwakeh and hiro!
16:27:25 <karsten> #endmeeting