18:01:43 <GeKo> #startmeeting tor browser 18:01:43 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Oct 24 18:01:43 2016 UTC. The chair is GeKo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:01:43 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:01:48 <GeKo> hi all! 18:01:53 <arthuredelstein> hi everyone! 18:01:54 <boklm> hi 18:01:56 <GeKo> and welcome to another tor browser meeting 18:02:08 * isabela is lurking 18:02:16 <GeKo> who wants to give a status update? 18:03:02 * boklm can go 18:03:10 <boklm> This past week I have been working on #19067, #15138 and #20439 18:03:17 <boklm> This week I'm planning to finish #19067, #15138 and #20439 18:03:23 <boklm> That's it for me 18:04:31 <GeKo> boklm: if you feel like doing review business, #20147 might be something 18:04:42 <GeKo> to get you are bit distracted from the other work :) 18:04:48 <boklm> ok :) 18:06:14 <GeKo> okay, i did mostly spend my time reviewing and testing patches 18:06:40 <GeKo> this morning the queue seemed to be quite empty but it seems it is filling again :) 18:07:00 <GeKo> so i probably will be spending again quite some time with reviews 18:07:50 <GeKo> then i plan to make serious progress on #20352 18:08:15 <GeKo> and get back to investigate crashes i encountered with h the sandboxed tor browser 18:08:21 <GeKo> s/h// 18:08:45 <GeKo> i plan to work on #20442 18:09:09 <GeKo> seems worthwhile to get fixed although i think this will go into the alpha series first 18:09:24 <GeKo> the changes apply to that cleanly 18:09:30 <GeKo> that's it for me for now 18:09:58 * mcs will go next 18:10:09 <mcs> Last week, Kathy and I worked on #20121. We will post patches soon. 18:10:15 <mcs> We did some followup work for #20111 and we spent a little time on #20204. 18:10:23 <GeKo> yay, patches 18:10:32 <mcs> Also, we reviewed some patches and spent some time on bug triage. 18:10:35 <mcs> This week we will debug the new issues that are caused by the #20204 backported patches, 18:10:42 <mcs> we will revise our #20185 patch, 18:10:49 <mcs> and then we will work some more on MacOS sandboxing (#20121). 18:10:55 <mcs> That’s all for us. 18:11:26 <GeKo> if you have some idea for how to get debug logs for #20427 please post to the ticket 18:11:26 * arthuredelstein can go 18:11:31 <GeKo> mcs: ^ 18:11:47 <GeKo> maybe that is related to the os x control port issues? 18:11:57 <mcs> GeKo: OK. Difficult on Windows :( 18:12:00 <GeKo> and it seems the user is willing to help to track things down 18:12:03 <GeKo> yeah i know 18:12:30 <GeKo> otherwise i'll sit down tomorrow and try to figure a proper comment on the ticket out 18:12:54 <GeKo> (and hopefully without overwhelming and scaring away them) 18:13:15 <GeKo> sorry arthuredelstein 18:13:30 <arthuredelstein> np! Sorry I jumped the gun :) 18:13:35 <arthuredelstein> This week I worked on and posted patches for 18:13:38 <arthuredelstein> #20399, #20347, and #20264. 18:13:44 <arthuredelstein> I also revised #20394 and #19459, 18:13:53 <arthuredelstein> and I worked on #16622 (not done yet). 18:13:58 <arthuredelstein> I opened #20414. 18:14:04 <arthuredelstein> I also opened https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1308340 18:14:05 <arthuredelstein> which generated some interesting discussion. 18:14:22 <arthuredelstein> This week I hope to finish #16622 and start working on memory allocator stuff for SponsorU. And continue to help Mozilla folks with the isolation patch uplifting ahead of the November 7 deadline. 18:14:33 <arthuredelstein> That's it for me. 18:16:44 <GeKo> okay. who else is here for giving some kind of status update? 18:16:52 <arlolra> I 18:16:55 <tjr> I 18:17:44 <tjr> arlolra: why don't you go 18:17:48 <arlolra> ok 18:18:33 <arlolra> TorMessenger has a release queued, but we're blocked on preparing dist for the updates. boklm said he'd look into that next month, so we may just wait until the next esr 18:19:32 <GeKo> yeah 18:19:53 <arlolra> separately, we have a build of snowflake working that we (serene and I) would like to get into the TB alpha releases 18:20:17 <GeKo> for all three platforms? 18:20:22 <GeKo> and it is reproducible? 18:20:25 <arlolra> no, just linux and macos 18:20:33 <arlolra> maybe just linux 18:20:35 <GeKo> hrm. 18:20:55 <arlolra> linux is reproducible 18:20:57 <arlolra> macos not yet 18:21:15 <mcs> I feel like we need a better way to deliver new experimental PTs without integrating them into TB. 18:21:35 <GeKo> how much would it add to the bundle size? 18:22:02 <arlolra> #19001 has some info 18:22:41 <arlolra> also, https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/19569#comment:1 18:22:56 <arlolra> roughly, a couple MB 18:23:41 <arlolra> but maybe we want to let tjr update before discussing in detail? 18:23:52 <GeKo> sounds good 18:23:57 <tjr> kk 18:24:04 <tjr> Don't have much to report right now, but Richard Barnes, Dan Veditz, and I are having an allday meeting tomorrow about Tor stuff. We'll go over: 18:24:04 <tjr> Patch Uplift (I believe I'm at least somewhat familiar with all of the open issues right now) 18:24:04 <tjr> things we can do to improve our release process wrt TB (proxy escape testing, new features & origin attributes, prefs etc) 18:24:04 <tjr> general browser hardening/exploit mitigation (memory partitioning, selfrando, CFI) 18:24:04 <tjr> Fennec, relay hosting, future desktop integration 18:24:05 <tjr> Related to Fennec, I also chatted with Nathan and Hans today about fennec/tor integration and figuring out what the most important things for us to do would be to move that process along 18:24:07 <tjr> So, lots of discussions but nothing concrete. If there's anything you want us to consider specifically, or weight heavily, speak up =) 18:24:51 <GeKo> yeah, i have a mail in my queue replying to all the loose end but am only waiting on mikeperry's input 18:24:56 <GeKo> *ends 18:25:25 <GeKo> ideally you should already have it. will see if you can get it to you tomorrow 18:25:27 <mikeperry> I am here. I will reply to that mail today 18:25:33 <GeKo> ah, cool 18:26:51 <GeKo> tjr: i think an important thing for mobile is to get the critical fixes backported to esr45 as well 18:27:03 <GeKo> iirc that ddid not happen in the past 18:27:08 <GeKo> at least not for esr38 18:27:30 <tjr> Ah, I'm unfamiliar with this, can you unpack it for me? 18:27:37 <tjr> (I didn't know Mobile had an esr?) 18:27:48 <GeKo> well not really 18:27:57 <dveditz> GeKo: that's good feedback. For mobile-only bugs we have not backported because we don't have a mobile ESR 18:27:57 <tjr> okay, just building orfox from the esr branch 18:28:11 <GeKo> okay 18:28:20 <tjr> ahha! 18:28:34 <dveditz> (luckily we don't have may mobile-only bugs) 18:28:38 <dveditz> many 18:28:44 <GeKo> yeah, tor browser for mobile will be based on esrXX as well 18:28:59 <GeKo> at least for the time being, so getting something done on that front would be neat 18:29:09 <dveditz> yeah, sorry I didn't think about that 18:29:37 <GeKo> no worries. we talked about it a while back via email iirc 18:29:49 <GeKo> but then i was not sure whether it got resolved meanwhile 18:30:05 <dveditz> do you need to me to scan back for old bugs or have you gotten them all in? 18:30:56 <GeKo> back then i looked over the esr38 ones you gave us a link to 18:31:10 <GeKo> and pointed nathan at them 18:31:18 <GeKo> but i have not done so for esr45 18:31:23 <dveditz> I'll check 45 then 18:31:33 <GeKo> cool, thanks 18:31:43 <dveditz> and push back on release management when they don't want us to backport 18:31:58 <GeKo> that would be helpful as well i guess 18:32:35 <GeKo> alright any other status updates before discussion time? 18:32:37 <dveditz> from a risk mgmt POV (theirs) the fewer patches the better 18:32:49 <GeKo> sure, i can understand that 18:32:51 <dveditz> oh, sorry if I've fallen into a mtg 18:33:01 <GeKo> you are welcome :) 18:33:20 <dveditz> got an irc ping on "exploit" above and dropped in to see what was up 18:33:31 <GeKo> ha! that's the weekly tor browser meeting 18:33:54 <GeKo> and it feels you are in the correct place ;) 18:33:59 <dveditz> ironically did not get a ping on my name because tjr spelled it out instead of using my nick :-) 18:34:10 <tjr> I didn't think to check if you were here, sorry! 18:34:27 <arthuredelstein> tjr: +1 for discussing future desktop integration 18:36:14 <GeKo> okay, snowflake 18:36:14 <tjr> So when the meeting is done I want to confirm my understanding of TorButton around that topic 18:36:22 <tjr> (and after snowflake) 18:37:10 <GeKo> arlolra: so, i think we could try to get the linux version in 18:37:16 <arlolra> great 18:37:28 <GeKo> we have reproduciblilty as a requirement 18:37:45 <GeKo> and i am not comfortable to exempt the osx version from it 18:38:02 <arlolra> understood 18:38:17 <GeKo> do you have gitian patches for review somewhere? 18:38:36 <arlolra> yup, let me dig that up 18:39:09 <arlolra> everything so far is on the snowflake branch here 18:39:09 <arlolra> https://gitweb.torproject.org/user/dcf/tor-browser-bundle.git/log/?h=snowflake 18:39:39 <arlolra> but we'll rebase and squash that into something reviewable 18:40:08 <GeKo> that would be neat. please put it in a separate ticket and add the Tor BrowserTeam201610R keyword 18:40:18 <arlolra> dcf documented a lot of the process in #19001 18:40:22 <GeKo> otherwise we might forget it 18:40:50 <arlolra> ok, we'll do that very soon 18:41:03 <arlolra> ie. before nov 8 18:41:29 <GeKo> okay. i can't promise you that we get it in. but we'll try 18:41:41 <arlolra> that's fair, thanks GeKo 18:42:15 <GeKo> mcs: i think i agree with your sentiment but i have no idea how this would look like in practise 18:42:54 <GeKo> the whole idea is to test that in a tor browser context 18:43:20 <GeKo> and i guess we don't want to have another bunch of tor browser series :) 18:43:22 <tjr> Mozilla has a thing I'm not too familiar with called TestPilot which AIUI is an extension people install (opt-in) to get experiments 18:43:51 <GeKo> hm, yeah. 18:44:15 <mcs> So the plan is to ship Snowflake with TB alpha? Has small-scale testing been done with people who know each other? (I assume so) 18:45:13 <arlolra> yeah, we've been running it amongst ourselves 18:46:12 <GeKo> mcs: yes. i think starting with linux at least 18:46:23 <GeKo> seems not a bad choice 18:46:38 <dveditz> TestPilot manages add-ons. If a patch/feature needs to be built-in then you'd need to build it in and preffed off, then TestPilot could manage an experiment to flip the pref on for some people 18:47:07 <mcs> OK. If it is an experiment, let’s label it as such, e,g., in the menu we could have “Snowflake (experimental)” or something similar 18:47:21 <GeKo> yes 18:47:37 <arlolra> sure 18:48:30 <GeKo> do we have anything else for discussion? 18:48:34 <mikeperry> yeah 18:49:00 <mikeperry> I was talking with some folks at OTF, and a forensics report came up. It was from a year or so ago. 18:49:35 <mikeperry> basically, they proved a whistleblower used Tor Browser to leak some documents by examining usage timestamps as well as pagefile.sys (the windows swap file) 18:50:25 <mikeperry> so we discussed what we could do about this 18:50:29 <tjr> usage timestamps on TB or the documents? 18:50:44 <mikeperry> TB 18:50:53 <mikeperry> the thing that clinched it was the URLs in the swapfile 18:51:07 <arthuredelstein> Is it the same case as this one: #17367 ? 18:51:34 <mikeperry> we discussed if mlock() might work. ISTR that needing a special cap or root privs, and either way it might be unstable and not cross-platform? 18:52:10 <mikeperry> the other option would be to have a "Safe Shutdown" button, that allocated and zeroed memory until the system ran out, kind of like tails 18:52:30 <mikeperry> this might work, but probably shouldn't be the default shutdown, since it is slow and may make other apps on the system OOM first 18:53:27 <mikeperry> ah, yeah, I think maybe that is the bug. it certainly is the hting I'm most worried about 18:53:30 <GeKo> mikeperry: the ticket above has some good discussion it seems 18:53:54 <mikeperry> waiting for it to load... 18:54:19 <GeKo> meanwhile: i won't be here next monday. could we move the meeting to tuesday instead? 18:55:01 <GeKo> and do we want to keep 18:00 UTC? i guess so until the US is changing time as well? 18:55:14 <mikeperry> ok, I will add the shutdown idea to that ticket 18:55:31 <mcs> Tuesday is OK for us. 18:55:38 <mikeperry> it should be relatively easy to implement. just a malloc and memset loop at shutdown, with a warning dialog first 18:55:38 <boklm> next tuesday is OK for me 18:56:00 <tjr> I may be unable to join, but don't let me block 18:56:32 <GeKo> mikeperry: if we could get away with that tha might be neat 18:56:46 <GeKo> the other options in the ticket seemed fairly invasive 18:57:05 <GeKo> or not possible tor browser land 18:57:21 <GeKo> arthuredelstein: does tuesday 18:00 UTC work for you as well? 18:58:41 <GeKo> two minutes left. any last minute things? 18:59:33 <GeKo> okay. thanks for the meeting all. *baf* 18:59:36 <GeKo> #endmeeting