13:59:36 <karsten> #startmeeting Measurement Team
13:59:36 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Oct  8 13:59:36 2015 UTC.  The chair is karsten. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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13:59:46 <karsten> hello, who is here for the measurement team meeting?
14:01:27 <tomlurge> hi! me
14:01:34 <karsten> hi tomlurge!
14:02:35 <clv> hi everyone
14:02:44 <karsten> hi clv!
14:02:57 <tomlurge> hi clv!
14:03:37 <karsten> https://pad.riseup.net/p/pk94s9DbR0v3 <- agenda
14:04:42 <karsten> please add more items if you want
14:06:30 <karsten> okay, looks like we have some items. let's start.
14:06:35 <clv> thnks
14:06:46 <karsten> 1. Berlin team retrospective session
14:06:53 <karsten> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2015SummerDevMeeting/MeasurementTeam
14:07:10 <karsten> we had a session in berlin to talk about how the team thing worked out so far.
14:07:17 <karsten> we came up with five suggestions.
14:07:32 <karsten> maybe take a quick look, and I'll be quiet for 2 mins.
14:09:22 <tomlurge> karsten: are you waiting for input? i sometimes don’t get how this IRC thing works :-/
14:09:39 <karsten> sure, feedback is great.
14:09:44 <karsten> or we can go through the items one by one.
14:09:55 <karsten> I was mostly waiting for you to read through them.
14:10:17 <karsten> maybe let's go through the list one by one and see what you have to add.
14:10:25 <karsten> 1. team landing page.
14:10:33 <karsten> what do you think? want to help?
14:10:55 <clv> Ok
14:11:01 <tomlurge> okay. i read them :)
14:11:22 <karsten> btw, we had this team landing page long ago: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/VegasTeam3
14:11:49 <karsten> but we might as well start from scratch.
14:12:01 <tomlurge> oups, now i get it … ahem, which wiki page?
14:12:06 <karsten> oh!
14:12:11 <karsten> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2015SummerDevMeeting/MeasurementTeam
14:13:35 <karsten> okay, how about I start a new wiki page somewhere, and people add content to that?
14:14:22 <tomlurge> karsten: yes, i think for you it’ll be much easier to begin it
14:14:31 <karsten> ok.
14:14:39 <karsten> added as action item to the agenda pad.
14:14:40 <clv> sure, i imagine the content would be something like the pdf report you did before berlin?
14:15:12 <karsten> it would link to that report and add more stuff.
14:15:20 <karsten> okay, will start something.
14:15:39 <tomlurge> release early. release often :)
14:15:41 <karsten> moving on to 2. analyze data, discuss findings, post to list, report in TWN.
14:15:47 <clv> okay
14:16:06 <karsten> this is related to agenda item 3. new Hadoop/Spark/Drill server
14:16:12 <karsten> I suggest we talk about that later.
14:16:42 <tomlurge> it’s also related to what i try to achieve with visionion
14:16:52 <karsten> it is!
14:17:22 <tomlurge> i wasn’t very successful with collecting usecases in berlin, though
14:17:42 <tomlurge> it didn’t seem like people have urgent questions that they need a visualization for to answer
14:17:47 <karsten> it's difficult to think those things through theoretically.
14:18:11 <karsten> you might have more luck presenting potentially interesting results and hear what other things people are interested in.
14:18:41 <karsten> I'm certain that there are such things hidden in the data.
14:18:48 <tomlurge> yeah, but … actual needs, burning questions?! sebastion had one, very concrete. but he was the only one
14:19:10 <karsten> he probably has more if he thinks harder. ;)
14:19:50 <tomlurge> after that success i pressed him to come up with more, but to no avail
14:20:15 <karsten> let's try to answer that first question and ask again for more.
14:20:40 <karsten> but let's move on to 3. 1-on-1 conversations.
14:20:57 <karsten> and talk more about interesting visualizations later.
14:21:14 <tomlurge> of course
14:21:38 <karsten> so, I guess I'll ask people if they want to have a 1-on-1 conversation in the next weeks. it's totally optional, and I hope to have a better idea what to talk about than the weather soon.
14:22:03 <karsten> but maybe it's useful. it could also be via IRC, or use higher-bandwidth media.
14:22:32 <karsten> I'll reach out to folks (you, other regular attendees of these meetings, etc.).
14:22:51 <karsten> does that make sense?
14:23:09 <tomlurge> IMHO it shouldn’t be so optional.
14:23:29 <tomlurge> rather the norm
14:23:59 <karsten> well, pretty much everything is optional for volunteers.
14:24:15 <tomlurge> but i’m not THAT experienced in team leadership.
14:24:32 <karsten> I agree that we should totally try it and see how it works.
14:24:35 <tomlurge> i mean it shouldn’t feel like: “we can talk if you really need help”
14:24:51 <karsten> agreed.
14:25:55 <karsten> in fact, good point. will make sure it won't sound like that. :)
14:26:04 <clv> i think it's a great idea btw
14:26:11 <tomlurge> you were quite insistive that it would be good to take part in these meetings and for me that was helpful (you insisting AND taking part)
14:26:26 <karsten> ah, good to know!
14:26:29 <karsten> clv: great!
14:27:00 <karsten> cool, added as action item.
14:27:12 <karsten> on to 4. mailing list.
14:27:28 <karsten> what do you think about creating a team mailing list?
14:27:46 <tomlurge> totally pro
14:28:18 <clv> +1
14:28:44 <karsten> I should talk to the other teams about this, but most people agreed that this would be a good idea.
14:29:07 <karsten> so, adding another action item.
14:29:46 <clv> as a new member i must say i feel tor-dev and mostly tor-talk have a huge flow of information sometimes
14:30:03 <clv> same with irc channels, sometimes i don't get to read all the backlogs
14:30:12 <clv> :(
14:30:23 <clv> so divide and conquer sounds great
14:30:26 <tomlurge> ^^i never even try…
14:30:27 <karsten> yep. I'm not sure if adding new channels will solve that problem,
14:30:34 <karsten> but I'm happy to try it.
14:30:39 <karsten> it would be a public list, too.
14:31:04 <karsten> but it would probably have less than a dozen people.
14:31:17 <tomlurge> i’m working on a draft about that server. would love to send it around on a measurement list but wouldn’t dare on tor-dev
14:31:25 <clv> well, i'm not proposing to create new irc channels, just mentioning my POV
14:31:28 <karsten> right, tomlurge.
14:31:41 <karsten> clv: ah, by channels I also meant mailing lists.
14:32:04 <dgoulet> tomlurge: I'm curious why wouldn't send this kind of stuff to tor-dev@ ?
14:32:07 <karsten> okay, let's try it out (if other teams agree).
14:33:04 <tomlurge> dgoulet: because the target audience is the tor-dev list and i dont want to spoil the surprise err use up the attention befor it’s ready. and i know that i can be chatty…
14:33:20 <dgoulet> I see
14:33:27 <dgoulet> thx
14:33:37 <karsten> I can see how posting to the large tor-dev@ list with many smart people on it can be frightening at the beginning.
14:33:45 <tomlurge> dgoulet: and tehre’s just tooo many people that i admire too much…
14:33:51 <karsten> how was that for you in the beginning, dgoulet?
14:35:13 <dgoulet> oh ah, it was stressful at first but it's not at all an aggressive mailing list like tor-talk@ could be
14:35:14 <dgoulet> imo
14:35:27 <karsten> oh, right.
14:35:33 <karsten> tor-talk@ is a different challenge.
14:36:03 <tomlurge> i agree, it never felt hostile or arrogant
14:36:11 <dgoulet> and if anyone is mistaken on tor-dev@ for instance and someone call the person out, that's totally fine and that means *other* people were mistaken about the same thing so win-win
14:36:28 <dgoulet> being wrong is totally OK, being irrelevant is something else :)
14:36:45 <tomlurge> ;-)
14:37:01 <karsten> well, the downside of moving to a small team list is that there are fewer smart people on it.
14:37:08 <atagar> dgoulet: On reflection email lists add a '[tor-consensus-healt]' or other prefix to emails, so '[DocTor]' is redundant. In a couple days when I redirect it to bad-relays@ it'll have that prefix, so gonna drop the '[DocTor]' bit I added yesterday.
14:37:17 <karsten> it could be used as staging area for posts that then go to tor-dev@.
14:37:47 <karsten> but let's conclude the mailing list topic here. let's try it out.
14:38:06 <karsten> moving to 5. communication between teams.
14:38:06 <dgoulet> (sorry about intteruption) :)
14:38:13 <karsten> thanks for interrupting, dgoulet!
14:39:05 <karsten> I take 5 as feedback for something I should be doing better.
14:39:13 <karsten> and I agree with it.
14:39:56 <karsten> we had some trouble with meetings of team leads for various reasons: meeting time, audio quality, etc.
14:40:18 <karsten> I hope we can resolve those issues soon. we talked about that in berlin, too.
14:40:33 <karsten> and then I should report about what we talked about in our meetings here.
14:40:52 <karsten> so, hope this will be better in the next couple of week.s
14:41:11 <karsten> anything to add to 5?
14:41:17 <tomlurge> to me that whole tor thing is still frighteningly big so having someone (karsten) giving me a “best of” from time to time would certainly be appreciated
14:41:32 <karsten> heh, will try.
14:42:03 <karsten> so, there are two more ideas for what we could improve:
14:42:08 <karsten> I'll add them as 6 and 7 here.
14:42:19 <karsten> 6. switch to having irc meetings every two weeks instead of every week.
14:42:27 <karsten> 7. turn 1-1-1 task exchange into a tor-wide thing.
14:42:49 <karsten> the idea behind 6 is that we'll move some of our discussions to mail,
14:43:00 <karsten> and having an irc discussion every week is a lot.
14:43:19 <karsten> it might prevent people from attending, and then we'll only have half of the team every week.
14:43:34 <karsten> so the idea is to hold them every two weeks with (hopefully) more people.
14:43:39 <karsten> how does that sound?
14:43:48 <tomlurge> 6 sounds reasonable (less people, mail)
14:43:50 <karsten> (in combination with the mailing list maybe)
14:44:35 <karsten> okay.
14:44:53 <karsten> we can try this one as well and evaluate in 3 months.
14:45:18 <karsten> so, 7,
14:45:37 <karsten> the idea was to hold an irc meeting (weekly or every two weeks) for all tor folks,
14:45:55 <karsten> exchange tasks like we did in the measurement team,
14:46:04 <karsten> and put whatever is not taken on TWN.
14:46:16 <karsten> that would allow new contributors to get into tor more easily.
14:46:23 <tomlurge> TWN?
14:46:31 <karsten> Tor Weekly News, the newsletter.
14:46:40 <tomlurge> ‘kay
14:47:02 <tomlurge> (just subscribed to it the other day)
14:47:07 <karsten> once upon a time we specifically wrote easy tasks for TWN to be more attractive to new contributors.
14:47:22 <karsten> but we stopped that because of the effort involved in that.
14:47:31 <karsten> the new idea here is that these tasks will already be written.
14:48:22 <karsten> so, another thing to try out, I think.
14:48:24 <toml> +1 to "new tasks already written"
14:48:50 <tomlurge> what do you mean by “will already be written”? already published somewhere? or just well prepared?
14:48:50 <karsten> toml: btw, here are some examples: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/O6TCKaTQ2j
14:49:26 <karsten> tomlurge: well, people describe these tasks during that 1-1-1 session and hope that somebody else picks them up.
14:49:45 <karsten> but if nobody bites during that session we can easily put them on TWN.
14:50:56 <karsten> still, the idea would be that people notify the task owner that they're picking a task.
14:51:15 <karsten> I guess we could use the wiki for that.
14:51:20 <karsten> well, not sure yet.
14:51:34 <karsten> something to figure out in the first tor-wide 1-1-1 meeting. :)
14:52:03 <karsten> aaand, we almost spend the entire meeting on agenda item 1.
14:52:08 <karsten> spent*
14:52:13 <tomlurge> ok. i can imagine myself picking up a CSS task and hiding from c++
14:52:29 <karsten> sure, that would be totally up to you.
14:52:54 <tomlurge> are we allowed to elongate the meeting?
14:53:20 <karsten> I think we shouldn't. or at least not by more than 5.
14:53:28 <karsten> let's move on, okay?
14:53:36 <tomlurge> ky
14:53:41 <karsten> 2. Berlin 12-month roadmap
14:53:50 <karsten> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2015SummerDevMeeting/Roadmap/Measurements
14:53:58 <karsten> no need to talk about that now.
14:54:06 <karsten> it's what we came up with in Berlin.
14:54:29 <karsten> it took about an hour to make that roadmap, and it's not really complete.
14:54:34 <karsten> or realistic.
14:54:41 <karsten> but it's a start.
14:54:54 <karsten> I'd say send me additions/corrections to that roadmap if you have any.
14:55:01 <karsten> or hey, it's a wiki!
14:55:33 <karsten> please add/edit to reflect your measurement-related tasks.
14:55:54 <karsten> maybe ping me after adding something.
14:56:24 <karsten> I'm thinking about adding those items to the roadmap PDF in a week or so and call that done.
14:56:48 <tomlurge> will add visionion, globe+atlas integration into visionion, analytics server and metrics website
14:57:01 <karsten> sounds great, please do!
14:57:44 <karsten> clv: feel free to do the same for erebus.
14:58:00 <karsten> moving on...
14:58:03 <karsten> 3. new Hadoop/Spark/Drill server
14:58:17 <karsten> tomlurge: want to describe that?
14:58:37 <karsten> like, give a 2-minute introduction? :)
14:59:05 <tomlurge> yeah: we are settig up a server with all raw metrics data on it (disk space permitting,at least the last 2 years or so)
14:59:42 <tomlurge> we install some big data analytics tools on it like Spark and Drill, all in a Hadoop environment
15:00:03 <tomlurge> teh aim is to make it easy for people to dive into the data and check stuff out
15:00:11 <dgoulet> woa! +9000
15:00:20 <tomlurge> without having to set up their own analytics framework on their poor laptop
15:00:34 <tomlurge> finished
15:00:35 <karsten> and we're adding users per request.
15:00:46 <karsten> sounds like dgoulet would be one of them.
15:00:52 <dgoulet> :D
15:00:54 <karsten> I also think that phw would be interested.
15:01:04 <karsten> and Sebastian maybe.
15:01:26 <karsten> tomlurge: this is the email you're planning to send to tor-dev@, right?
15:01:28 <tomlurge> cool. we will have to keep an eye on disk space usage and teh like though
15:01:51 <tomlurge> yep, that’s the mail. it’s practically ready
15:01:52 <karsten> well, 2x240G + 2x2T is plenty. ;)
15:02:13 <karsten> cool!
15:02:14 <tomlurge> karsten: we’ll see… :)
15:02:43 <karsten> okay, last item is 4. parsing lib comparison
15:02:57 <karsten> that's something atagar and I came up with in berlin.
15:03:12 <karsten> we're planning to compare metrics-lib and Stem wrt. capabilities and performance.
15:03:21 <karsten> we sent mail to tor-dev@ about that.
15:03:41 <karsten> a side effect of this plan is that we're going to team up on metrics-lib and then Stem for this.
15:03:50 <karsten> rather than him working on Stem and me working on metrics-lib.
15:04:09 <karsten> that's a pattern we should try out for other tools, too.
15:04:36 <karsten> well, depending on whether we're still happy with how this goes afterwards. ;)
15:04:46 <karsten> that's 5 minutes over time now.
15:04:52 <karsten> should we conclude the meeting here?
15:05:31 <karsten> pasting action items for the log:
15:05:36 <karsten> - karsten: Create team landing wiki page, invite others to add content.
15:05:36 <karsten> - karsten: Invite team members to 1-on-1 conversations (blocking on input from Tom).
15:05:38 <karsten> - karsten: Talk to other teams about creating team lists, then ask for one for the measurement team.
15:05:41 <karsten> - tomlurge: Add visionion, globe+atlas integration into visionion, analytics server and metrics website to the roadmap wiki.
15:05:44 <karsten> and adding one more:
15:05:54 <karsten> - tomlurge: Send out mail about mteam server to tor-dev@.
15:06:00 <karsten> anything missing there?
15:06:43 <karsten> otherwise I'll end the meeting in 5, 4, 3, ....
15:06:49 <tomlurge> erebus?
15:07:03 <karsten> that's clv's relay monitor.
15:07:07 <tomlurge> didn’t cvl want to add that to the wiki?
15:07:17 <karsten> where?
15:07:30 <karsten> ah!
15:07:31 <tomlurge> roadmap
15:07:34 <karsten> Erebus 1.0 release - atagar
15:07:39 <karsten> there's that for october 2016.
15:07:48 <tomlurge> ah, okay, sorry
15:07:51 <karsten> of course, clv might want to edit that.
15:08:02 <karsten> - clv: Possibly edit the roadmap wiki wrt. erebus.
15:08:03 <karsten> there,
15:08:04 <clv> yeah, taliking with atagar about it
15:08:21 <karsten> cool!
15:08:30 <karsten> 2, 1...
15:08:31 <karsten> #endmeeting