14:58:36 #startmeeting 14:58:36 Meeting started Tue Sep 8 14:58:36 2015 UTC. The chair is nickm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:58:36 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 14:58:54 isabela made this for us: it's got an agenda at the top 14:59:19 so first, did we miss any network team projects? 14:59:45 what's "this"? 14:59:55 he probably means https://storm.torproject.org/shared/rE40JVMp_lgFiyAQ5LHInseRTAXLySYfk7ckGtKFtwG 15:00:11 I do, sorry! 15:00:18 some things are filled in, some aren't. 15:01:12 *allows javascript so storm can pwn his box* 15:01:28 Also see https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/measurement-roadmap.pdf , which is Karsten's output from when the measurement team did this 15:01:58 hi hi 15:02:01 very nice doc 15:02:25 hi hi athena! 15:02:32 "Loading ..." 15:02:49 *allows even more bullshot* 15:03:12 * nickm adds BridgeDB 15:05:23 * nickm adds the tor specs 15:05:38 * nickm looks over the list of names on the team to see if any remind me of more projects 15:05:49 where should onionbalance be? 15:05:49 anybody who doesn't see an important project there, please let me know 15:06:03 what about the dirauth scripts? 15:06:03 There 15:06:08 I'm not sure if torsocks fits in there ? 15:06:26 IMO dirauth scripts and tools are midway between measurement and network. I'd list them in a new section at the bottom 15:06:29 IMO torsocks fits 15:06:42 * dgoulet adding it 15:06:54 * nickm looks at gitweb 15:06:54 is bw auth part of network or measurement? 15:07:04 it's a dirauth script. but maybe it's measurement/ 15:07:19 asn_: IMO it could be either, so let's list it. 15:07:29 asn_: It makes the network work. OTOH, it's okay for us to have dependencies. 15:08:16 the measurement roadmap has the following tools listed as "maybe measurement, maybe network": sybilhunter, exitmap, torflow (bwauth), guard fraction, hidden-service scanner detector. 15:08:23 ah 15:08:28 interestnig! 15:08:34 all dirauth scripts seem to be there! 15:08:43 well, to some extent. 15:08:50 I agree; they're definitely maybe both. :) 15:09:25 should PTs be splitted into little-t-tor PT, and the actual PTs? 15:09:49 maybe? 15:10:07 I'm adding a "list of pts" element at the bottom of that section 15:11:08 i think PTs are a network team tool 15:11:23 agreed 15:11:36 My definition of network is more or less "It makes bytes go over the wire" 15:11:55 mikeperry proposed a plan for padding to reduce netflow resolution. Is that in here anywhere? Should it be? 15:12:41 syverson: this is trying to find the active long-term projects under the network team. IMO that would probably not be here, but reasonable folks may disagree 15:12:45 karsten: i didn't see consensus-health in the measurement pdf. but i think the project is very important. 15:13:01 asn_: that's DocTor and DepicTor. 15:13:10 DocTor for email, DepicTor for web. 15:13:17 karsten: ack! 15:14:08 what should we do about tools/products that don't exist yet? 15:14:09 tor2web? 15:14:19 isis: like what? 15:14:23 asn_: I think it's on this one. 15:14:25 i'm thinking of bridge bwauths 15:14:28 ack 15:14:35 nickm: OK I mostly asked because it seems related to the plan for synchronous circuit builds I've raised to many. I suppose neither of these counts as active at the moment, but that was kind of my point. 15:14:37 isis: IMO that's measurement/network too 15:14:50 syverson: we're not talking about projects at that level IMO 15:15:04 isis: the measurement roadmap contains a few products which are still under development. 15:15:06 syverson: IMO we're talking about projects at the level of "The Tor Daemon"; "The Directory Authorities"; etc 15:15:24 ricochet? 15:15:31 (just brainstorming here. i'm running out of ideas so i'll stop soon) 15:15:42 nickm: is it useful to mention things which don't exist yet here? or just wait until the thing exists and revisit later? 15:15:53 isis: like? 15:15:58 isis: yes 15:16:05 asn_: Ricochet IMO is applications-team 15:16:23 sounds reasonable. 15:16:29 maybe torsocks should be applications too? I dunno; I see it as more low-level, but reasonable minds might disagree 15:16:29 agreed 15:16:40 "Tor design doc" and "Tor spec" are different? 15:16:53 yes 15:17:07 https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor-design-2012.git/ is design 15:17:31 never heard of that :) 15:18:30 I think we're running low on projects. 15:18:31 i think im out of brainstorming material. 15:18:39 Shall we all just start filling stuff in? 15:18:40 next step? 15:18:41 ok 15:18:55 For "future" i'd suggest that we try to do broad strokes rather then finnicky details 15:19:13 Like, no project you could do in less than a month, unless it's earthshaking. :) 15:19:52 wait, we've had a secret tor-design git all this time? :) 15:19:55 nickm: dgoulet: should I put me and you and nick as the lead maintainers of hs? 15:20:10 athena: it was "tor secret" that's why we didn't know! 15:21:29 asn_: depends of definition of "maintainer" here :), but in case of design, patches, development, I would say yes put all those 15:23:13 oh, atagar appears to be on the pad as "anonymous user" :) 15:23:33 that might have been me. 15:23:42 i was filling out nyx section 15:24:08 asn_: ah, okay, i just wanted to make sure i wasn't stepping on atagar's toes by filling in stuff 15:24:17 oh, might have been me, too. 15:24:23 everybody: feel free to add 'future' stuff to other people's projects! 15:24:41 nickm: +1 15:29:31 we have a sekrit tor-design repo? 15:29:38 what the what? 15:29:49 it's on gitweb! 15:29:52 https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor-design-2012.git/ 15:29:57 it's a project to update the design paper 15:30:02 last updated in january 15:32:58 It's secret. It's not in large font at the top of the homepage at torproject.org 15:34:17 teor: listing you first on the chutney list, since you've been doing more chutney than I 15:35:44 Yes, I was thinking similar thoughts 15:35:54 __uguu__: there is TorClientEndpoint to do client-side things, is that maybe what you're looking for? 15:36:11 I see nobody writing a section for txtorconn, bridges) 15:36:18 syverson: too true. We need more persistent pointers for each project. A resource library that can be pushed based on context. 15:36:33 meejah: would you like to fill in the txtorconn status section of https://storm.torproject.org/grain/GMNLuioJSwcYCof4hPrPSX/ ? 15:36:42 who should write the "bridges" section? 15:36:44 nickm: when I added "Bridges", I was thinking of "BridgeDB" :) 15:36:50 * asn_ writes bridges 15:36:55 ah. well, bridges != bridgedb 15:37:06 about putting my name down as de facto maintainer 15:37:09 also you should probably list me as a maintainer for anything that requires Tor patches 15:37:11 yeah, short circuit in my head :) 15:37:22 teor: yes? 15:37:33 yes I would, but "unauthorized" on that page. i've been meaning to check out storm.tpo more, so maybe I need an invite? 15:37:38 teor: I'm doing it in the sense that if somebody writes a chutney patch, I'd love you to have a look at it. 15:38:21 isis: can I send meejah a sandstorm invite? Is that something I have bits for? If so, how do I do it? :) 15:40:36 nickm: of course, makes sense, I didn't have a name for that role, but that's how we've been doing it 15:41:03 teor: not like it's your responsibility to do anything you don't feel like doing here, or haven't got the time for :) 15:41:15 * nickm gets more coffee, bbiab 15:41:31 I've started a new section at the top, "WHO USES THESE TOOLS?" 15:42:15 yep. but chutney is pretty low-maintenance 15:42:43 * teor is slow at this hour. Timezones and all that 15:44:51 karsten: thanks for filling in the nyx and stem sections :) 15:45:26 * nickm goes afk for 3 minutes to make tea; brb 15:45:35 atagar: sure. please add anything I missed, but I felt I have recent information about those two that I could add there. :) 15:48:32 meejah: sign up for a storm account and let me know when you're done and i'll give you privileges 15:50:38 nickm: you can give meejah privileges by going to "Admin » Users » [find meejahs account] … [click on the dropdown and select «Invited User»]" 15:50:46 isis: okay, i just "signed in" via meejah@meejah.ca 15:50:55 nickm: or i can do it :) 15:51:18 (so I guess I'm @meejah it looks like) 15:51:51 I just set it to "invited user" 15:52:46 looks like isis is there adding people as invited too 15:53:33 yeah, kate and other kate, griffin and also griffin, are all now "Invited Users" in storm.tpo 15:54:22 should I create an account 15:54:25 we know who sjm217 is? is that steven murdoch? 15:54:30 Yawning: might be nice 15:54:32 if nothing bad happens if I don't I won't 15:54:35 Yawning: if not too much trouble 15:54:43 k I shall then 15:54:46 well, without an account you can't make your own etherpad things here 15:54:52 karsten: i think the file measurement-products.pdf is missing in your measurement-roadmap branch. 15:54:53 isis: yes, that's steven murdoch 15:54:57 now i still get 403/unauthorized on the grain nickm linked above, except now I also have the "new"/"open" things as well :) So progress \o/ 15:55:00 or somebody pretending to be him 15:55:05 Yawning: if you want to create content, then you need an account, otherwise people have to share stuff with you for you to edit stuffs 15:55:12 well, my development mdoel is still msotly "Yawning's Fortress of Solitude" 15:55:29 so >.> 15:55:46 fair enough 15:55:57 where do I go to make an account for this 15:56:03 I haven't dealt with the sandstorm instance either. Tried with atagar1@gmail.com and it gave 'unauthorized'. 15:56:04 I'll make one just so I have one 15:56:16 it's useful, it has like diagramming stuffs and latex compiling stuffs that could be used in a fortress of solitude 15:56:29 Just made atagar invited 15:56:34 thx :) 15:56:35 phw: will add that. (I'm currently making other changes, so that will take a while. hope you're not blocking on this right now.) 15:56:39 Yawning: just "sign in" and let me know when you do 15:56:54 sign in where 15:57:03 I've ignored this standstorm thing 15:57:13 so I have no idea where it lives 15:57:22 Yawning: https://storm.torproject.org 15:57:35 thanks 15:58:06 karsten: ok. i'm not working on it, i was just trying to compile it. 15:58:19 Yawning: oauth is faster, if you're okay with it, otherwise you need to wait for a silly login email with a one-time-link to show up each time you want to login 15:58:32 I'm patient 15:58:36 nickm: I think you need to "invite" me to edit GMNLuioJSwcYCof4hPrPSX ? 15:58:37 it isn't necessarily "each time" either 15:59:10 meejah: I don't know how to do that. 15:59:11 I got the Unauthorized thing 15:59:15 isis: do you know? 15:59:24 which means life is probably good 15:59:44 invited Yawning 15:59:44 meejah: you need a link with "shared" in it, not "grain" in it: https://storm.torproject.org/shared/rE40JVMp_lgFiyAQ5LHInseRTAXLySYfk7ckGtKFtwG (from scrollback) 16:00:09 ! 16:00:09 uh… i dunno what the unauthoriized thing is 16:00:10 it doesn't have my prefered pronouns 16:00:15 just crossed the ocean 16:00:18 sorry folks 16:00:34 isis: great, thanks that works :) 16:00:39 the unauthorized thing is prolly just Yawning trying to hack teh gibson 16:00:39 hi isa! we're working on your nifty document thing 16:00:59 * isabela was away from her computer had to take subway back home this morning (subway was off the laborday weekend) 16:01:26 nickm: great! 16:01:32 I am looking at the pad 16:01:43 I think we're in a pretty good spot for a brainstorm-and-first-draft 16:01:44 lol at the passive aggressive rage in the statement "Programmers repurposing our free software" :) 16:01:56 * karsten has to leave. this looks like it's going to be a really useful doc. I'll update you folks (probably via tor-dev@) once I have finally updated the measurement roadmap doc. 16:02:12 oi karsten ! 16:02:19 isis: add "His Imperial Highness" as a pronoun option plox 16:02:28 karsten: bye! thanks for your help! 16:02:57 by karsten ! 16:02:58 *bye 16:03:36 Yawning: uh… that kind of feature request can go in irc.freenode.net#sandstorm or https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/issues/ :) 16:03:52 oh 16:04:01 Yawning: (it's fairly hard for me to make changes unless they are merged upstream) 16:04:02 cbf logging into teither of those 16:04:07 I'd suggest freeform pronoun boxes instead. You'd get more uptake for those 16:04:16 nickm++ 16:05:01 it somehow autofilled mine in as "they" which is both eerie and correct 16:05:06 * dgoulet needs food, bbl 16:05:17 but how did it know? 16:05:18 isabela: I'm close to calling the meeting, since we've been at it for an hour, and we've mostly filled it all in .. anything we should do as a final burst of effort? 16:06:00 isis: that's the default 16:06:17 go ahead and call it. sorry i missed, got trapped in SF 16:06:37 Yawning: oh. that's quite politically correct of them. 16:06:51 isis: why eerie? Why wouldn't that be the default? 16:06:58 I am reading it and is great 16:07:08 'house of horrors' ;) 16:07:34 syverson: i didn't realise it was the default, and i assumed it was asking some databank somewhere what my likely pronoun was 16:07:47 isabela: yeah 16:07:48 Err as Yawning just said. I'm slow in my reading and typing. 16:07:58 I have a lot of stuff in my github 16:08:06 heh :) 16:08:09 okay. Thanks, everybody! Please feel free to keep filling stuff in; I'm calling the meeting now 16:08:10 I prefer Sagamore. 16:08:14 #endmeeting