13:59:15 <hellais> #startmeeting OONI Community Gathering 2018-04-24
13:59:15 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Apr 24 13:59:15 2018 UTC.  The chair is hellais. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:59:15 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:59:30 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Hello everyone, welcome to the April OONI Community Meeting! :slightly_smiling_face:
13:59:37 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> My name is Maria, and I work with OONI
13:59:41 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Who do we have here today?
13:59:55 <slacktopus1> Action: sbs is here!
14:00:17 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Hello, I am Arturo and I also work with OONI
14:01:05 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> Hello, I'm Adel from Internet Without Borders. I'm assitant of the Executive Director. She's unavailable, in travel. I'm replacing her.
14:01:35 <slacktopus1> <darkk> Hello, I'm Leonid and I'm also OONItarian, but today I'm mostly away due to ongoing "civil cyberwar for Telegram" in Russia :slightly_smiling_face:
14:02:57 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Great! Thanks for joining us - please feel encouraged to introduce yourselves asynchronously as you join the meeting.
14:03:02 <slacktopus1> <melody> Hello, Melody here from Access Now
14:03:22 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> As a reminder, we're using this pad to add topics to this meeting's agenda: https://pad.riseup.net/p/ooni-community-meeting
14:03:55 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> So far we have no agenda items... Is there anything anyone would like to discuss? Any questions/thoughts/ideas...? :slightly_smiling_face:
14:06:25 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Well while you folks thing about that I can maybe give a quick recap of what has been going on in the OONIVerse in the past month
14:06:57 <slacktopus1> <hellais> (@agrabeli @sbs @darkk please chime in if I miss anything)
14:07:41 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • We finished a proof of concept prototype of the upcoming OONI Probe desktop app for macOS
14:08:07 <slacktopus1> <hellais> It supports running tests and seeing results in a badly looking UI.
14:08:39 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Most of the work was actually figuring out how all the various components were going to play with each other and how to produce a easy to use `.app` for macOS users.
14:09:11 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • A lot of progress has been done on the windows front. Figuring out how to get our measurement library to run there and fixing all the bugs we found to get windows support working
14:09:36 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • We made a lot of progress also on the revamped mobile app front and now have a fully working prototype for iOS
14:10:20 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Based on this we will be conducting some UX interviews to better understand how to improve it. BTW if you are interested in being involved in this process be sure to reach out to me or @agrabeli (maria@openobservatory.org)
14:11:31 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> On this note: We're basically revamping the mobile apps to make them easier to use, with better design and UX. They will also include more features, like the ability to choose which websites you want to test directly via the app. As mentioned by @hellais, if you're interested in participating in the usability interviews, please let us know. :slightly_smiling_face:
14:11:48 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • Some work was done also on implementing the OONI Orchestra probe orchestration system. This is an upcoming feature that will make it possible for users of our mobile app to run tests automatically and have network measurement testing be adaptive to what happens around the world.
14:12:28 <slacktopus1> <darkk> @hellais sorry for interrupting you, but I have sort of hot question as I have to run in ~15..20 minutes.
14:12:49 <slacktopus1> <darkk> I've seen an open letter from lots of NGOs to Google regarding Russia-vs-Telegram case and was a bit surprised that AccessNow was not in the list :slightly_smiling_face:  I don't say (and I'm not 100% sure) that it _should_ be the, that's an open question to me. Should it be there? Is it just lack of communication? Should we be better in spreading the word?
14:13:52 <slacktopus1> <hellais> @darkk I'm not sure. Perhaps you should send them an email?
14:14:02 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @darkk This is the 1st time I am seeing this open letter....
14:14:23 <slacktopus1> <melody> @darkk same
14:14:28 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> same
14:14:30 <slacktopus1> <darkk> @hellais sure. I just highlighted that as @melody is here and maybe knows something I don't know :)
14:15:28 <slacktopus1> <melody> @darkk I'll check if one of my colleagues got a request to sign on but I personally haven't received any email on this. thanks for bringing up
14:17:47 <slacktopus1> <pellaeon> Hello, pellaeon from Open Culture Foundation in Taiwan here, just saw the channel tag on my metro ride home, I don't have anything particular to discuss, just letting you know that I'm here observing the meeting
14:17:53 <slacktopus1> <darkk> @melody thanks a lot! I'll also tell people from Agora that they may be missing some _participants_ :slightly_smiling_face:
14:19:00 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @darkk has this open letter been published? if so, where?
14:19:32 <slacktopus1> <darkk> @agrabeli I've seen it at Agora channels, those are one of lawyers representing Telegram in Russian court.
14:21:12 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Ok moving forward
14:21:25 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • We published a blog post on the various conferences we went to last month: https://ooni.torproject.org/post/ooni-in-africa-india-europe-conferences/
14:21:51 <slacktopus1> <hellais> @sbs also did a presentation at the International Journalism festival in Perugia: https://twitter.com/OpenObservatory/status/984726614167769088
14:22:36 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • We published an article and small whitepaper on our plans for a methodology to detect internet blackouts: https://ooni.torproject.org/post/investigating-internet-blackouts/> & <https://ooni.torproject.org/post/investigating-internet-blackouts/Investigating-Internet-Blackouts-Methodology-2018-03.pdf
14:23:00 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • We wrote a blog post covering the internet blackout in Sierra Leone following the elections: https://ooni.torproject.org/post/sierra-leone-network-disruptions-2018-elections/
14:23:38 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • We formed a partnership with the Advocates for Human Rights and Democracy in South Sudan: https://twitter.com/OpenObservatory/status/988695263274586112
14:24:08 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • Yesterday we released a mini-documentary on exploring the internet in Cuba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QslsL84jx4E
14:24:17 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Ok I think that is it
14:25:32 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> We have also been updating various test lists -- largely thanks to community members who have been suggesting URLs to test for censorship! Many thanks!
14:26:11 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> In general, if you know of sites that are blocked or that would be interesting to test for censorship over time (regardless of whether they're currently blocked or not), please reach out to us so that we can add them to the testing.
14:26:12 <slacktopus1> <darkk> WRT OpenLetter -- I've not found any source that is better than the lawyer's facebook so far ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ https://www.facebook.com/pchikov/posts/1983721685034599
14:27:08 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @agrabeli I have a question : how are you promoting these helpful tools ?
14:27:41 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @adel.b that's a great question! A lot of the promotion actually happens thanks to community members, such as Julie and many others.
14:28:28 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> We have been forming partnerships with a number of digital rights organizations around the world, with whom we collaborate on studying internet censorship. A big part of that involves local community engagement ==> explaining OONI Probe, teaching it, providing support, etc.
14:29:02 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> We also promote OONI tools via conference presentations, talks, workshops, hackathons, and other events.
14:29:40 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> We somewhat utilize social media (see https://twitter.com/OpenObservatory>), and we publish research reports to get the word out on censorship findings: <https://ooni.torproject.org/post/
14:30:13 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Access Now have also played an important role in promoting the use of OONI Probe globally, and we're super grateful for that. :slightly_smiling_face:
14:30:23 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @agrabeli yeah ! that was helpful in detecting the recent internet block out in Chad !
14:31:22 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @adel.b I think we still need to improve in terms of how we communicate OONI Probe...
14:32:07 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> It's quite challenging, since OONI Probe is quite niche software.... and the types of audiences we communicate vary quite significantly (human rights advocates, lawyers, technologists, academics, etc.)....
14:32:54 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @adel.b Do you perhaps have ideas/suggestions on how we could potentially improve the communication and promotion of our tools..? :slightly_smiling_face:
14:33:08 <slacktopus1> <hellais> On the social media front, we also have a facebook page, thought it's yet not as popular as our twitter; https://www.facebook.com/ooniprobe
14:34:13 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @agrabeli  Indeed.  my question is : are you exclusively targeting  advocates, lawyers, technologists, academics, etc...
14:34:55 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> For argument sake, lets take OONI probe as a poduct to be marketed
14:35:28 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> have you thought of reaching to a wider target audience ?
14:36:09 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @adel.b Yeah. I guess part of the challenge is that our "target" audiences are quite diverse ==> They involve anyone interested in using OONI Probe and OONI data. This often involves human rights advocates, lawyers, journalists and policy experts. But computer science academics studying network interference are also interested in OONI Probe and OONI data, as are some other technologists. We also hope to reach more data scientists, since we're
14:36:10 <slacktopus1> collecting/publishing more and more data every day.
14:36:55 <slacktopus1> <hellais> @adel.b I think that while it's the case that our tools are going to be most appealing to advocates, lawyers, technologists, activists, academics, etc., our hope is that eventually these topics will not be as niche as they currently are. In a way measuring your network, be it to understand if internet censorship is happening on it or simply to measure other characteristics of it like speed & performance, should become at some point a well esta
14:36:55 <slacktopus1> practice"
14:37:36 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @hellais I agree !
14:38:13 <slacktopus1> <hellais> So maybe at some point in the future (as also the tools and methodologies we develop improve and get better) it will be part of what everybody does on their network. Like you have an antivirus on your computer or a firewall, you may also want to run regularly a network measurement tool
14:38:34 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @adel.b Yeah, we're trying to reach a wider audience ==> particularly since that would allow for the collection of more measurements, and it would therefore better position us to detect censorship events worldwide. The closest we've gotten to successfully engaging more "mainstream" audiences was via our collaboration with Fight for the Future, which led to hundreds of thousands (?) of installations in the US for the purpose of measuring poten
14:38:35 <slacktopus1> neutrality violations.
14:39:11 <slacktopus1> <hellais> This way an individual increases their own personal understanding of their *own* network, while at the same time contributing to the collective understanding of the networks around the world.
14:40:11 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @agrabeli very interesting
14:40:24 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Yeah, I also think its important to reach wider audiences so that it can be the norm that citizens hold their ISPs (and governments) to account on a daily basis, measuring potential network interferences.
14:41:04 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Our aim, essentially, is to support public debate on information controls. To have more such debates, it's important that the public is involved in the monitoring process.
14:41:30 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I think that part of the reason why we are not there yet, is also technical. In the sense that being probably the first to do this with the goal of eventually reaching wider audiences, there is a fair amount of research and experimentation needed (to make the heuristics more accurate, to make the tools more usable, to communicate better the findings etc.). As a result the audiences that are currently most receptive to this are probably those t
14:41:30 <slacktopus1> have some amount of understanding of these topics.
14:41:35 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I don't think it
14:43:21 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I think that eventually we will reach a point where network measurement is more mainsteam and it's something that anybody can understand. Perhaps then people will find it as natural to check their OONI Probe for network interference as they tune into the weather channel to check what the weather is going to be like :P
14:43:25 <slacktopus1> <dbyko> Hi all! Dan from internet monitor checking in. little late to today's community meeting, but im just idling and listening
14:43:27 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @agrabeli yes , it should be a norm like @hellais said , like having an anti virus on your computer
14:44:38 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @hellais yes I agree , it needs time and experimenting.
14:44:55 <slacktopus1> <darkk> Ciao all! I have do depart now :slightly_smiling_face:
14:46:02 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> Have you huys had any problems with governments ?
14:46:35 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> I mean accusing you of interference in internal affairs
14:46:42 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @adel.b Nope. I don't think OONI is such a big player (yet).
14:46:47 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> if yes , what did you do
14:47:17 <slacktopus1> <hellais> And I would add to what @agrabeli said, that we always, to the extent that is possible, try to play a more distanced role in internal affairs
14:47:47 <slacktopus1> <hellais> That is to say that we always try to refrain from making statements or writing things that are too politically loaded as prefer to have local groups carry out that sort of role
14:48:12 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @adel.b That's a good question though, and part of our concern ==> being accused of meddling in internal affairs and that being used to discredit our software and data. That's why we try to be as "neutral/scientific" as possible.
14:48:32 <slacktopus1> <hellais> The reason to do that is not only that of not wanting to get into trouble, but moreso that we can't possibly have a complete and full understanding of all the complex social/political issues of all the countries we work it
14:48:55 <slacktopus1> <hellais> That is something that a local group is better positioned to understand and act upon accordingly
14:49:10 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Which is why we establish partnerships with local advocacy groups :slightly_smiling_face:
14:49:20 <slacktopus1> <hellais> yup
14:50:14 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @hellais @agrabeli ok . I see your point . Smart !
14:50:52 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> We're generally at the intersection of technology and advocacy, and the line is sometimes thin. But we try to maintain our role of a more neutral observer of networks, based on open methodologies, free and open source software, so that our research can be reproducible by any third parties.
14:51:58 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> Perfect  . the chad is  curently scourged with internet shutdown
14:52:09 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> who do you have in the field ?
14:52:38 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> We're not in touch directly with community members in Chad
14:52:46 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> But we have been coordinating with Julie and her networks
14:53:17 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> We shipped RasPis to Chad more than a year ago, but unfortunately they never reached their final destination... :S
14:53:36 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> I think the easiest way though to coordinate on network testing in Chad is via the OONI Probe mobile apps
14:53:49 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.openobservatory.ooniprobe
14:53:53 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> yes, thanks to your help we are now campigning against this shutdown !
14:53:59 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id1199566366
14:54:40 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> how much data does OONI probe
14:54:45 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> need to be downloaded ?
14:54:54 <slacktopus1> <darkk> Ah, Pavel have sent me a better source about the open letter to Google. https://www.inclo.net/> -> <https://www.inclo.net/pdf/open-letter-to-google-amazon-microsoft-and-apple.pdf
14:55:15 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @adel.b the important things to know from you include (a) what exactly is reportedly blocked ==> Based on this information, we can generate links for easy testing via the mobile apps, (b) are there other sites or services that are popular in Chad (or elsewhere) and that people are having difficulty accessing?
14:55:48 <slacktopus1> <hellais> @adel.b you mean the size of the app?
14:55:58 <slacktopus1> <dbyko> Out of curiosity, why did the raspberry pi not make it to Chad? Shipping problems, intercepted?
14:56:03 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> yes @hellais
14:56:16 <slacktopus1> <hellais> @adel.b the Android app size is 24MB
14:56:24 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I think the iOS version is similar in size
14:56:40 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @dbyko Probably intercepted.... but 100% sure :S
14:56:52 <slacktopus1> <dbyko> :/
14:57:13 <slacktopus1> <sbs> (also, FWIW, next version will be slimmer - around 18-20 - because we'll be removing old architectures and I'm working on a library redesign to further reduce the size - possibly around 10-15)
14:57:51 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @hellais that is pretty reasonable, the reason behind the question is that internet prices are very high in african countries.
14:58:06 <slacktopus1> <sbs> ((I didn't introduce myself: I'm Simone and I develop stuff for OONI))
14:58:08 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @sbs That will sure be helpful
14:59:42 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @adel.b yeah, the high cost of data has been a challenge in terms of community engagement in many African countries...
15:00:20 <slacktopus1> <hellais> @adel.b yes that is understandable. Though keep in mind that to do the testing itself you will likely end up using a fair amount of data (probably more than the app size itself)
15:01:04 <slacktopus1> <hellais> In our upcoming revamped app, though, we will be adding support for data quota management. That means you will be able to say "OONI Probe should use only 100MB of data per month" and the app will take care of that.
15:01:56 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> We should also note that the amount of data used varies quite significantly from one test to the other.... The OONI Probe test that can consume the most data is the Web Connectivity test, and that depends on how many websites are tested...
15:02:21 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> But the WhatsApp test, for example, consumes less data
15:02:38 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @hellais interesting approach
15:02:54 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> @agrabeli I see you point :S
15:05:30 <slacktopus1> <adel.b> I'm sorry but I have to leave . It has been insightfull to talk to you guys !  Can't wait to colloborate with you more in the future ! Cheers!
15:05:44 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Thanks for joining us :slightly_smiling_face:
15:05:59 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @adel.b thank you so much for joining us today! We look forward to collaborating with you too :slightly_smiling_face:
15:06:31 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Are there any other questions or anything anyone would like to raise/discuss before we adjourn this meeting?
15:06:37 <slacktopus1> <sbs> I also have to leave! Ciao!
15:09:42 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> OK, thanks everyone for joining us!
15:10:04 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> If you have more questions or if you'd like to discuss further, you can find us on this channel (pretty much) every day :slightly_smiling_face:
15:10:40 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> I'll be announcing the next month's community meeting on the #ooni-talk and #keepiton mailing lists
15:10:54 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> We generally have our monthly community meetings every last Tuesday of the month at 14:00 UTC
15:11:14 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> If a different date and/or time would work better for you, please don't hesitate to reach out and let us know!
15:11:47 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Thanks everyone for your time! Have a lovely day :slightly_smiling_face:
15:11:58 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Ciao!
15:12:00 <hellais> #endmeeting