14:00:08 <hellais> #startmeeting OONI Community Gathering 2018-03-27
14:00:08 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Mar 27 14:00:08 2018 UTC.  The chair is hellais. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:08 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:20 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Hello everyone
14:00:34 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Welcome to the OONI's March Community Meeting! :slightly_smiling_face:
14:01:24 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> As a reminder, please add topics (or questions) that you would like to discuss as part of this meeting in this pad: https://pad.riseup.net/p/ooni-community-meeting
14:02:00 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> So far we have no topics.... Is anyone here? :slightly_smiling_face:
14:02:10 <slacktopus1> <babatunde.okunoye> Hi Everyone. Happy to join.
14:02:25 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @babatunde.okunoye hello, thank you for joining us! :slightly_smiling_face:
14:03:26 <slacktopus1> <babatunde.okunoye> Hello, I have no particular questions, I just joined to learn more about OONI tools and the community
14:04:45 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I am here too
14:05:35 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I guess while @channel thinks of topics they would like to discuss I can give a quick update on what the OONI team has been up to in the last month
14:06:01 <slacktopus1> <hellais> (please feel free to interrupt me if you come up something comes to your mind :slightly_smiling_face: )
14:07:28 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • OONI Probe desktop apps Quite some blood and tears have been shed in figuring out how to get OONI Probe on Windows working. We are approaching a point where we have some working proof of concept that will run on windows, thanks to the great work @sbs did on it.
14:08:02 <slacktopus1> <hellais> (also other OONI people, please chime in if I forget anything)
14:09:53 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • Meetings & conferences The tor dev meeting happened in Rome and the OONI team gathered here to plan and discuss the upcoming work that lies ahead.  @agrabeli and I, also participated in a workshop in Kampala on internet policy in africa, where we explained how people can use OONI Probe and the data it produces as part of advocacy or policy work.
14:10:54 <slacktopus1> <elioqoshi> Hola o/
14:10:58 <slacktopus1> <babatunde.okunoye> Great @hellais and OONI team. A Windows-adaptable OONI probe will be a game changer. Yes, I also met @hellais and @agrabeli in Uganda
14:11:05 <slacktopus1> <eiko> Thanks for the update!
14:11:12 <slacktopus1> <eiko> I'm here too! I have no specific questions now, but I wanted to bring up again something we discussed earlier - If we should come out with a _standard form_ to let people to submit url (for people who not familiar with GitHub), instead of sending in massive emails etc?
14:11:24 <slacktopus1> <hellais> • OONI Probe mobile app revamping We have made huge progress on the OONI Probe mobile app and have a working proof of concept with the revamped design that @elioqoshi and @nuke worked on
14:11:57 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> (@eiko that's a great topic to be added to the agenda!)
14:12:20 <slacktopus1> <eiko> Okay. I am adding it now :slightly_smiling_face:
14:12:34 <slacktopus1> <hellais> @eiko yes that is a great suggestion. I think we have had it as a topic of the community meeting for the most number of times as any other topic :P
14:13:06 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I believe @willscott make some google form for doing that and we should probably clean it up and put it online
14:13:28 <slacktopus1> <darkk> WRT conferences -- a talk at nullcon happened as well. https://slides.ooni.io/2018/nullcon-measuring-internet-filters/#/0
14:13:46 <slacktopus1> <hellais> It still requires somebody then taking what is written into the form and creating a pull request, but I agree it's probably one step closer to the direction we want to reach
14:13:48 <slacktopus1> <willscott> i remember making a template, where we'd duplicate it for different partner groups that wanted to add URLs
14:14:19 <slacktopus1> <willscott> but we could do a general public one as well
14:14:21 <slacktopus1> <hellais> The google forms, though, have the issue of not supporting more than 1 URL at a time in the form
14:14:51 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Sharing a editable google sheet, has the issue that it may be prone to vandalism and/or it's tricky to get notified when some changes are made
14:15:02 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Yeah, I agree that putting the form online (linking to it from our website) could be a good idea. In most cases though, I personally receive a small amount of URLs from community members, which is quite manageable for the time being. But yeah, in general, we need something link a standardized form.
14:16:05 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> So I guess this brings us to the 1st topic
14:17:20 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @eiko would a standard Google spreadsheet linked from our site (or shared with you directly) be helpful?
14:17:46 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> By "standard" I mean it containing standardized columns that community members need to fill out based on specific values (for the category codes)
14:18:11 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Where the workflow for using the google spreadsheet would be that you: 1. Create a copy of it in your own gdrive account 2. Add the URLs you need to it 3. Send an email to us linking the google sheet
14:18:26 <slacktopus1> <babatunde.okunoye> Yes guys, whatever makes OONI simpler works!
14:18:53 <slacktopus1> <hellais> We could also create a google form for submitting to the sheet directly, but that would be limited to 1 URL per submission, so it may not be worth it
14:19:25 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> The plus side of having 1 URL per submission is that people are forced to categorize each URL they submit
14:19:40 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> (which is necessary given that test lists are machine-readable and must have specific category codes)
14:20:04 <slacktopus1> <hellais> (ref: https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/docs/bJjEdb-Qpyc)
14:20:07 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> On the downside, many community members want to be able to submit long lists of websites...
14:20:27 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Moreover I would add, that it encourages people to submit ONLY one URL for a country
14:20:57 <slacktopus1> <hellais> While we actually want to encourage an approach to creating testing lists that contain many URLs from many different categories and not just a single URL
14:21:15 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Right
14:21:35 <slacktopus1> <willscott> when you submit you can customize the finished page, and one of the standard option is inviting the user to go back and submit another
14:21:56 <slacktopus1> <eiko> I think wouldn't be a big problem for just having only one URL per submission, as if you want to submit more, just submit another entry :P
14:22:01 <slacktopus1> <willscott> also we could consider the google app script endpoints to put a custom ux in front of it
14:22:18 <slacktopus1> <eiko> and also, people will think twice of which URL is more worth and important to test
14:22:30 <slacktopus1> <eiko> like priority
14:22:31 <slacktopus1> <willscott> i think the main question on that front is: is it worth having an easier url submission method? it sounds like the answer is 'yes'
14:23:51 <slacktopus1> <darkk> I feel like it's discussed at least for 1.5 years. The answer is for sure "yes". The Q#2 is: does person submitting the url expect it to be ~immediately tested or not? I feel like the discussion is inspired by the form at https://www.blocked.org.uk/ (and alike forms for GFW).
14:24:31 <slacktopus1> <willscott> we can remember to set expectations by noting that you're submitting URLs 'to be reviewed for inclusion on the testing list' or some such
14:25:17 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Yeah, I think one of the priorities should be to enable people to choose which sites to test and to test them directly through the apps. And this is something that is currently possible on desktop, and which will be possible via the revamped mobile apps (and currently possible via OONI Run).
14:25:21 <slacktopus1> <hellais> If we do write the custom script on top of it, we can perhaps get away with doing something as simple as creating a gist with the URLs already in CSV format
14:26:10 <slacktopus1> <hellais> In any case, I think there is clearly the need for this, it's just unclear who is going to be spearheading this endeavour
14:26:27 <slacktopus1> <willscott> dropping them into a google sheet for export is nice in that the submitter doesn't need to be logged in to anything. github login seems like a potential blocker
14:26:39 <slacktopus1> <willscott> i'll volunteer to make another round of this with ux for submitting multiple
14:26:45 <slacktopus1> <hellais> > github login seems like a potential blocker  You don't need to be logged in to create a gist
14:26:48 <slacktopus1> <arsalan> Hello everyone!
14:27:03 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @arsalan hello! :slightly_smiling_face:
14:27:31 <slacktopus1> <arsalan> I am from Bytes for All, Pakistan
14:27:56 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @arsalan awesome, thanks for joining us!
14:28:13 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> As a reminder: Please add topics you'd like to discuss in this meeting here: https://pad.riseup.net/p/ooni-community-meeting
14:28:15 <slacktopus1> <willscott> @hellais: link? docs suggest otherwise
14:28:28 <slacktopus1> <171> Hello! @arsalan
14:28:43 <slacktopus1> <fmonyango> Hey guys, Francis from CIPIT Strathmore In Kenya
14:29:08 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @171 @fmonyango hello, thanks for joining us!
14:29:17 <slacktopus1> <willscott> https://blog.github.com/2018-02-18-deprecation-notice-removing-anonymous-gist-creation/
14:29:20 <slacktopus1> <hellais> We do it to submit OONI Probe desktop logs to us: https://github.com/TheTorProject/ooni-wui/blob/master/src/routes/Logs/components/Logs.js#L27
14:29:34 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Ugh, that sucks
14:29:38 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Is there anything in particular you'd like to discuss? Any questions? :slightly_smiling_face:
14:29:42 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I didn't get the deprecation memo
14:30:14 <slacktopus1> <hellais> It's quite brutal they would deprecate such a feature in 30 days from the announcement without even communicating it via email
14:30:57 <slacktopus1> <171> yes
14:31:19 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I am just thinking that in terms of making it easier to then go from submission to pull request, it's simpler to copy paste from a csv text file into the csv of the test list vs having to open the sheet, export to csv and then copy it into the file.
14:32:07 <slacktopus1> <hellais> It's yet still an improvement over our current workflow, which is that people send us .xsl (best case) or an email with a list of uncategorised links, and then we have to categorise them or fix them up and add them
14:32:13 <slacktopus1> <willscott> we can probably build a script that exports sheets into pull requests with the reviewer's credentials, and that seems like a discrete second step once we make the ux and people start using the mechanism
14:32:27 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> We're in the process of revamping the OONI Probe mobile apps. The new mobile apps will have new features (based on community feedback), and new design. Would you be interested in participating in upcoming usability studies?
14:32:29 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Sure
14:32:45 <slacktopus1> <salam> hey this is Abdul Salam Bytes for all, Pakistan
14:33:13 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Maybe I am getting into bikeshed territory, but I am wondering if google sheets is in fact the best technology for this and we can maybe get away with something simpler
14:33:14 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> More specifically, we're interested in arranging some interviews with community members to collect direct feedback on the version of the apps we're working on, so that your feedback can help improve them before we make the public launch.
14:33:55 <slacktopus1> <fmonyango> @agrabeli I am interested in participating in upcoming usability studies
14:33:57 <slacktopus1> <hellais> My point was just that we don't really need from our perspective, all the bells and whistles of google sheets if we are already doing pre-validation and formatting through custom script logic
14:33:57 <slacktopus1> <171> I'm interested.
14:34:25 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @fmonyango great, thank you! I'm taking note and I'll reach out to you within the next months to schedule an interview. :slightly_smiling_face:
14:34:57 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @171 awesome, thanks! I'll reach out. :slightly_smiling_face:
14:35:07 <slacktopus1> <sukarn> I'm interested as well
14:36:03 <slacktopus1> <salam> yeah, this will be great pleasure to contribute on this!
14:36:10 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @sukarn awesome, thank you, I'll reach out! :slightly_smiling_face:
14:37:24 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Speaking of the OONI Probe mobile app revamp: One of the new features that I'm personally excited about is the fact that you'll be able to add the sites you want to test directly in the app, and test them! Are there any other features that you would like to see in the new apps?
14:42:01 <slacktopus1> <babatunde.okunoye> @agrabeli + Tunde for usability studies. Happy to be involved.
14:42:20 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @babatunde.okunoye thank you!
14:44:20 <slacktopus1> <sukarn> Is there a way (or does the app automatically) use a proxy to connect to OONI's server to retrieve the test list and for submitting results? I'm wondering about a situation where OONI server gets blocked.
14:44:54 <slacktopus1> <salam> is there any possiblity to have an option for site URL sharing among OONI-Porbe users? like in case I have listed all the URLs for testing purposes but want to check that URLs from others places on friend mobile, just to help him/her to check this rather he/she put the URLs manually. like an option to have real time sharing accessibility among users using OONI app.
14:45:21 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @sukarn good question! Network measurement data is submitted to OONI servers over Tor hidden servers. You can alternatively use domain-fronting is Tor is blocked in your location.
14:45:31 <slacktopus1> Action: sbs joins now (sorry for being late, was stuck in another meeting!)
14:45:34 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> This is the case on desktop
14:45:46 <slacktopus1> <hellais> > Is there a way (or does the app automatically) use a proxy to connect to OONI's server to retrieve the test list and for submitting results?  We are in the process of adding support for domain fronting in the mobile app. This will allow communicating to our backend server when the OONI services are blocked
14:46:18 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Probably it will work initially by having this be an advanced option and then we will eventually try to add something dynamic where it will try the domain fronted request if the regular request fails
14:46:25 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @salam We have a platform dedicated to precisely that: OONI Run: https://run.ooni.io/
14:47:54 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @salam You can add all the sites you want your friends/contacts to test in the URL slots of OONI Run (https://run.ooni.io/), generate a link, and share it with them. When they open the link, it will prompt them to install the OONI Probe mobile app to perform the testing. If they already have the app, it will (almost automatically) test the sites you have chosed :slightly_smiling_face:
14:51:21 <slacktopus1> <jakub> regarding ooni run is there a limit to the number of urls?  since they are all jammed into a single url there is some platform limitation no to length of url where you have to split them up
14:51:25 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @salam You can also use OONI Run to coordinate with other OONI Probe users on other tests as well. But I personally feel that it's most useful function is that of sharing websites to test, since the rest of the tests can very easily be run directly via the mobile app anyway.
14:51:45 <slacktopus1> <elioqoshi> I'd like to raise a matter if we get a chance (mostly addressing OONI contributors)
14:51:55 <slacktopus1> <willscott> @jakub - since it's interpreted by the app, and doesn't go to a remote server, it isn't subject to the 2000 char limit
14:51:57 <slacktopus1> <hellais> @jakub I have created OONI Run links with more than 1k URLs and they worked fine on iOS
14:52:10 <slacktopus1> <jakub> good to know! thanks
14:52:24 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I believe it should work fine on Android too
14:52:51 <slacktopus1> <hellais> As @willscott pointed out, it doesn't actually enter the web browser or hit our web server if the user has the app installed
14:53:15 <slacktopus1> <hellais> The main think you should be careful of, when using very long OONI Run links, is that the app you use to share it doesn't break the URL up
14:53:32 <slacktopus1> <hellais> I generally have a stash of OONI Run links inside of the iOS notes app and tap them from there
14:53:51 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Another strategy is to create a github gist with in it just a markdown link and have users open the gist and then tap on the link
14:54:13 <slacktopus1> <jakub> good stuff -- was curious this makes sense
14:54:28 <slacktopus1> <hellais> Example gist: https://gist.github.com/hellais/3772700ea3e5a0cc58c9b8f9c2975f2f
14:59:34 <slacktopus1> <elioqoshi> Folks, we were discussing the possibility of creating a Discourse instance for asynchronous communication regarding anything OONI. This would be a place for Partners, Contributors and Community members to mingle and share updates, so it's important to know if this would be something you'd be interested in?  This is Discourse: https://discourse.org  OTF also has a Discourse instance  This would not replace anything apart the mailing lists in
14:59:35 <slacktopus1> Slack would be used as is, but discussions which might get lost in Slack could be constructively discussed there.  What do you think, would you use Discourse? Or are you happy with the current mailing lists?
14:59:59 <slacktopus1> <elioqoshi> Please note that Discourse also has a mailing list mode where you can keep using it from your email just like usual mailing lists
15:02:22 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> thanks @elioqoshi
15:02:35 <slacktopus1> <hellais> As I mentioned already to @elioqoshi I have not been too impressed by discourse as a platform and prefer mailing lists to it, but I if @channel would actually find using something like discourse more useful, I can tollerate it.
15:02:43 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Has anyone in this meeting used Discourse before? What has been your experience with it? Would you prefer it to mailing lists?
15:06:23 <slacktopus1> <eiko> Never use this before, but it looks like forum type?
15:06:26 <slacktopus1> <171> I have used discourse. In the particular discourse, I liked the experience very much. It was very to find info on topic I was interested in and also clearly see who community participation on various things. It motivated me.
15:08:27 <slacktopus1> <171> And I liked that I could give my inputs in any discussion regardless of when it happened.
15:08:47 <slacktopus1> <elioqoshi> Just found the OTF Discourse: https://we.opentech.fund/
15:09:26 <slacktopus1> <sukarn> So, it's like a forum?
15:09:46 <slacktopus1> <hellais> @sukarn yeah kind-of, but it also has email integration
15:10:20 <slacktopus1> <171> Yes it is @sukarn I found it to be very engaging
15:11:20 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> OK, cool!
15:11:50 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> Well this is something we're considering... thanks for your input, and please feel free to share any further thoughts you may have on this.
15:13:02 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> If there's nothing pressing to discuss, perhaps we can adjourn the meeting (since we're 13 minutes late)?
15:13:22 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> In general, you can reach us here on this channel for any questions/ideas/feedback you may have :slightly_smiling_face:
15:13:49 <slacktopus1> <171> And there are kinds of badges awarded to users to reward good practices.
15:13:54 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> I'll also be announcing the time and date for the next community meeting on the #ooni-talk and #keepiton mailing lists, per usual
15:14:09 <slacktopus1> <eiko> thanks! @agrabeli
15:14:42 <slacktopus1> <agrabeli> @171 yeah, it sounds like creating a Discourse instance is something probably worth exploring :slightly_smiling_face:
15:15:17 <hellais> #endmeeting