16:01:10 <hellais> #startmeeting OONI gathering 2016-12-06
16:01:10 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Dec  5 16:01:10 2016 UTC.  The chair is hellais. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:10 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:20 <hellais> oops off by one
16:01:25 <hellais> who is here?
16:01:36 <hellais> pad for agenda: http://pad.riseup.net/p/ooni-irc-pad
16:02:11 <anadahz> hello
16:02:50 <hellais> riseup pad is not working properly
16:03:47 <hellais> let's fail-over to this: https://pad.puscii.nl/p/ooni-irc-pad
16:04:06 * landers here
16:04:24 <ebdet2002> here
16:04:38 <onon> hi
16:04:47 * darkk 2
16:05:10 <slacktopus> Action: sbs is here
16:05:54 <linda_> hello?
16:05:54 <hellais> the pad is not loading for me
16:06:17 <linda_> Hmm. Well, I'm here now.
16:06:29 <darkk> both riseup puscii load for RU, but both show no agenda for today meeting
16:06:56 <onon> hellais: https://pad.systemli.org ?
16:07:20 <kwadronaut> darkk: because it's still being written, does it show now?
16:07:55 <anadahz> OK let's start
16:07:58 <hellais> ok: https://pad.puscii.nl/p/ooni-irc-pad
16:08:02 <anadahz> #topic ooniprobe packages in Debian/Ubuntu
16:09:11 <anadahz> So it seems that the latest ooniprobe packages for Debian and Ubuntu are on the tor deb package repository.
16:10:30 <anadahz> However most of them are broken either due to configuration issues or package dependencies.
16:12:20 <anadahz> We should come up with a nice solution to have a stable ooniprobe package in any distribution that could be always installed.
16:12:41 <hellais> I agree
16:13:28 <hellais> what is needed to make that happen?
16:13:37 <hellais> do we know what the issue is and how it can be fixed?
16:14:50 <darkk> anadahz: what configuration issues do you mean? Do you mean some sort of broken upgrade process while going from ooniprobe=debian/stable to ooniprobe=deb.tpo/stable ?
16:16:06 <anadahz> darkk: In Ubuntu 16.04 ooniprobe is being configure to not start tor and relies on the tor service.
16:16:19 <agrabeli> hi
16:17:56 <anadahz> Whereas in Ubuntu 14.04, and Debian Jessie there are some package dependencies issues.
16:19:04 <anadahz> I guess we can defer this discussion for later.
16:19:21 <hellais> ok sounds good
16:19:32 <anadahz> But it's good to have a long-term solution that will always work.
16:19:40 <hellais> linda_ and Adarsh: would you like to talk a bit about the UX work you have been doing last week?
16:20:01 <ebdet2002> @Adarsh here. Sure!
16:20:21 <hellais> excellent!
16:20:37 <hellais> #topic Present findings on OONI UX audit
16:20:46 <ebdet2002> What I've been working on: Auditing the current web and mobile platforms for usability, understanding who is the intended end user of the product
16:21:11 <ebdet2002> What I'm going to work on next: define a direction for the re-design of the UI and UX flow, and starting to build assets to support this effort
16:21:19 <ebdet2002> What's blocking me: Nothing right now
16:21:52 <ebdet2002> Summary of findings: A lot of small usability cues can be included to guide user understanding of the platform
16:22:06 <ebdet2002> Breakdown the onboarding structure to be more informative and visual
16:22:24 <ebdet2002> Show users how they are adding value by giving them meaningful feedback after they've taken measurements
16:22:52 <ebdet2002> Consolidate functionality and pages where possible (eg Nettests and decks), and simplify the interactivity of the platform
16:23:30 <ebdet2002> My recommendation for what's next: I'd like to finish defining the personas with @Linda, and revise the copy (to use copy as a cue) with @Maria
16:24:08 <ebdet2002> @OONI Team: Are there any questions or comments regarding my findings which I should take into consideration as I move forward?
16:25:29 <hellais> ebdet2002: thanks for the excellent summary! Some of us wrote down some feedback inside of the slides with your analysis. 
16:25:30 <agrabeli> ebdet2002: great, thanks! (maria here)
16:26:50 <ebdet2002> @Maria and @Arturo -- no problem! And I've seen the comments, all were great!
16:27:11 <darkk> hellais: is there any public link to the slides (for the record)
16:27:13 <darkk> ?
16:27:37 <ebdet2002> @darkk - I will finalize the deck and submit to @hellais to post publicly
16:27:52 <ebdet2002> I asked him to hold off until @linda and I had discussed it
16:29:02 <ebdet2002> @hellais let me finish it and send it your way within 24-48 hours
16:30:24 <hellais> ebdet2002: that sounds great!
16:30:28 <darkk> ebdet2002: no worries, seems, some mail filter dropped the copy of the slides sent to my mailbox :)
16:31:20 <hellais> I guess something to keep in mind while providing feedback to us is in a way thinking of some patterns and components that can be re-used also for new feature we will be adding to the UI in the future and explicit them
16:31:55 <hellais> like for example every time we present a list of items we may want to have a certain pattern for displaying the items, performing actions on each row and sorting them
16:32:32 <ebdet2002> @hellais absolutely - that is fundamental to any UI/UX design, so I will explicitly draw your attention to these patterns. To support that, I will need your existing style guide. You have shared your identity assets with me already, but does anyone on the dev team have the front end style guide?
16:32:58 <ebdet2002> I.E. existing CSS, templates, etc.
16:33:39 <hellais> ebdet2002: we don't really have a formal style guide. I did however re-structure a bit all the design related assets and metadata we have into the openobservatory/design repo:
16:33:50 <hellais> https://github.com/openobservatory/design
16:34:06 <hellais> in here you can find the fonts and colors we generally use: https://github.com/OpenObservatory/design/tree/master/style
16:34:09 <ebdet2002> This is perfect, thank you!
16:34:38 <donald> hi
16:34:40 <donald> My modifications have been agreed.https://github.com/TheTorProject/ooni-probe/pull/692 Tough I do not see the changes on the official project https://github.com/TheTorProject/ooni-probe/blob/master/ooni/agent/agent.py .
16:34:44 <hellais> if there is something that is missing from there just ping me (or file an issue on the repository and assign it to me)
16:34:57 <ebdet2002> That's everything on my plate -- I'd like to turn it over to @Linda to briefly discuss the user findings
16:35:12 <linda_> Thanks, ebdet2002!
16:35:23 <donald> hellais: hi
16:35:40 <donald> did you speak to me?
16:35:55 <linda_> donald: we are in the meeting of a meeting. Would you excuse us for a second?
16:36:04 <linda_> Ardash and I identified different user that would use ooni so that we can know how they would find OONI, what actions they would take, what their thoughts on the process was, and what would ultimately make for a painless user experience for them.
16:36:12 <linda_> Currently, OONI is geared toward a specific type of person, specifically a hacker type persona who is already aware of the risks, highly technical, and is able to understand how OONI probe works on a technical level and what the risks might be.
16:36:22 <linda_> Reaching out to different people--such as hacktivists in third world countries (think 15 year old boy who can use a computer in a not first world country), academicians who do research, and people in policy, journalism or law who want to know about it will greatly increase your user base (and measurements!).
16:37:13 <linda_> We have typed up their needs, behaviors, and details about them in this google doc here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1siNx6emEeAtrPhcQGMOqQ1S8HZ7GnkZuSZyOGOOXnHg/edit?usp=sharing
16:37:34 <donald> linda_ yes
16:37:44 <donald> excuse me too
16:38:36 <linda_> donald: ٩(^‿^)۶
16:38:44 <linda_> donald: excuse me too (~˘▾˘)~
16:38:51 <linda_> anyway
16:38:52 <linda_> We think that it's really important to address what specific users need--for instance, the hacktivist would really want to understand how ooniprobe works technically, feel included, and understand the risks. We think that this persona is the most important to target, but we plan to deploy features that will help all of these users.
16:39:23 <linda_> You don't need to understand this in great detail, but feel free to poke around the doc to see if you are curious. This will give you insight into why we make design decisions going forward.
16:39:27 <linda_> ᕦ(^o^)ᕤ
16:39:51 <agrabeli> linda_: this is really great, thanks so much!
16:40:57 <linda_> agrabeli: ヽ(•◡•)ﾉ
16:41:09 <hellais> linda_: great work! Thanks a lot for this.
16:41:50 <linda_> hellais: (★‿★)
16:42:00 <linda_> Yep, my blurb is over.
16:42:09 <linda_> It's more to summarize what we have done/why we're doing stuff in the future.
16:42:41 <linda_> That's it for us!
16:42:46 <hellais> I think these 4 archetypes cover quite well the broad types of users
16:43:27 <linda_> shoutout to ebdet2002 for doing research on the "hactivist one"
16:43:38 <linda_> citing papers and looking at github profiles to find actual frustrations.
16:43:48 <linda_> We decided to look more into it because we think there is the most potential with that persona
16:43:56 <linda_> And they are already complaining about it. :P
16:44:40 <linda_> We hope to make OONI more usable for all these users! (~˘▾˘)~
16:44:47 <linda_> ♫♩♪♡♡♡
16:44:51 <hellais> by the hacktivist one you mean persona4?
16:44:55 <agrabeli> linda_: yay, that would be ideal :)
16:45:24 <ebdet2002> hacktivist = Persona 4
16:45:26 <darkk> I multitasced to the `personas` doc, that's really superior to our attempt to map user stories! Thanks \m/
16:45:40 <linda_> agrabeli: ★★★★★
16:47:03 <darkk> 👍
16:47:13 <hellais> do we have more to cover on this item of the agenda?
16:47:38 <linda_> Not unless you have questions
16:47:39 <linda_> We're done
16:48:04 <hellais> I don't have anything to add at this point in time and I guess we will talk more in depth about this tomorrow
16:48:19 <hellais> Excellent, let's move onto the next item:
16:48:22 <hellais> #topic Discuss the posibility of using zenhub as a cross repository/organisation board
16:48:24 <ebdet2002> Sounds good! Thanks guys
16:48:27 <linda_> Thansk!
16:48:32 <linda_> We're going to sign off~
16:48:33 <linda_> :)
16:48:42 <linda_> Talk to you tomorrow, hellais and agrabeli
16:48:44 <donald> I think for be as accessible as possible with the less potential danger for the user, we can not do nothing. The user, to be anonymous should use free software OS, overwrite his datas, etc...
16:48:45 <hellais> thanks for attending!
16:48:54 <linda_> ٩(^‿^)۶٩(^‿^)۶
16:49:05 <donald> too many extern softwares
16:49:18 <darkk> hellais: isn't it easier to have a shared filter for https://github.com/issues ?
16:50:02 <agrabeli> linda_: yep, talk more tomorrow, thanks for joining today :)
16:50:35 <hellais> darkk: that's not really the same thing though.
16:50:46 <hellais> let me explain perhaps first what is the problem
16:51:31 <hellais> so with OONI we have a bunch of different repositories and also some non software related tasks associated to them.
16:51:57 <donald> (~˘▾˘)~  do you listen to me? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< (joke)
16:52:39 <sbs> donald: we're still having a meeting
16:52:50 <agrabeli> donald: thanks for joining us. however, if there's a topic you would like us to discuss during the weekly meeting, please join the ooni mailing list and add your topic in the pad.
16:53:03 <donald> sbs: I would like to contribute to this meeting. is it possible, else I leave you.
16:53:16 <hellais> when we are working on a specific large feature (for example "release ooni-measurements") we have to solve a series of issues that are not necessarily tied to the same repository (ooni-sysadmin for deploying stuff or ooni-measurement for code stuff or ooni-web for content editing etc), but also maybe different organisations (when releasing ooni-probe android we need to solve things on measurement-kit and oon
16:53:22 <hellais> i-web maybe)
16:53:22 <donald> agrabeli: info got. good bye.
16:56:14 <hellais> I would like that when we are working on a big feature or story that takes into account various repositories we could in some way track it's progress and be able to define better what the priorities of each person should be at a given moment.
16:56:41 <hellais> I would also be sad if we had to use another tool for storing our issues, so it would be best to not have to use something new
16:57:21 <hellais> zenhub seems to be a good compromise because it just adds an overlay on top of github to be able to group and organise issues per "Epic" across different repositories
16:58:46 <darkk> I agree, that umbrella tickets sometimes become messy in github issues. I briefly looked at it, sounds like legit solution for better visualisation.
16:59:21 <hellais> so we would be able to keep using github issues, but it would be possible to also group them per "Epic" (think milestone or big feature), do estimates on them, have a visual overview of what are the things we agreed that we should do now and what each of us is busy with
17:00:19 <hellais> what is also nice is that if you don't have the zenhub plugin you are still actually able to read and view the issues and in some way participate to the ooni development
17:00:43 <hellais> but it would also give us better tools for organising ourselves if we all buy into the idea of using this plugin
17:00:58 <hellais> (buy into == think it's a good idea)
17:01:05 <hellais> thoughts?
17:01:34 <hellais> I created a repository that we can use as the "Master" repo for all things OONI: https://github.com/openobservatory/OOHQ
17:01:50 <darkk> is zenhub plugin the only way to access zenhub "UI" ? Does it have plain-old web ui?
17:01:55 <agrabeli> hellais: never used zenhub before, but sounds good
17:01:58 <slacktopus> <sbs> hellais I've been using it in the last hour to organize next MK release and really like it
17:01:59 <hellais> it is configured with some boards already that I tried out a bit in the weekend, but it's not yet finished
17:02:12 <hellais> if we agree that we should do it, I will do it for all the things
17:02:42 <hellais> darkk: no unfortunately you must install the plugin. There is no web UI for it.
17:03:36 * darkk wants to cosplays weasel for a second :)
17:05:44 <darkk> I mean, I'm a bit scared of plugin running in browser context just to do some UI re-dressing for an issue tracker.
17:06:42 <darkk> IMHO, it deserves separate browser profile :)
17:07:08 <hellais> yeah for sure
17:07:39 <hellais> personally I use a separate browser for development and using github than the one I use for everything else
17:07:52 <alangiu> Hi, I really like this idea. I use zenhub for personal and MeasurementKit development and I like the fact that works really good and that it's transparent to people that don't want to use it and install the plugin. I never used it in an organization and I dont' know how it exactly works but I think it should work in the same way.
17:07:52 <hellais> YMMV
17:08:15 <anadahz> hellais: can we export all/any of the zenhub data in any way or we just "merry" this software?
17:08:58 <hellais> anadahz: well the backend of zenhub is actually just github.So if we stop using zenhub we don't really loose any data.
17:09:27 <hellais> I guess what we would loose is just the links between the data, bu I believe even those are stored as labels
17:09:33 <hellais> "stored"
17:10:55 <darkk> Hmmmm...
17:11:36 <darkk> Don't we violate https://www.zenhub.com/terms-of-service in terms of anything unlawful "under any law" ?
17:11:40 <darkk> </purism>
17:14:32 <darkk> I'm OK with zenhub. Seems, it should be "secure enough" if used under separate chromium profile. Also, it does not store anything valuable and if we're afraid of it, we can try to have a "drills" like a day-without-zenhub to verify the assumption :)
17:14:33 <slacktopus> <sbs> but the unlawful act is probably running the software, not developing it, isn'it?
17:15:36 <darkk> sbs: he-he, it depends on your jurisdiction, that's why I cited `under ANY law` clause that was randomly picked from TOS
17:16:15 <darkk> sbs: remember, there was an incident in China when a developer was forced to remove his network filtering circumvention code from github
17:17:15 <agrabeli> darkk: technically, to my knowledge at least, software like ooniprobe is not specifically legally prohibited anywhere (though it might be viewed or interpreted as such). In any case, I don't see how having a plugin on top of a repo that hosts the code would create legal problems (then again, I'm not a laywer).
17:18:09 <hellais> http://bikeshed.io/
17:19:56 <anadahz> anyway as always tools are good when you are using them so if we end up liking and *using* this tool we are good.
17:20:16 <darkk> +1
17:20:31 <hellais> yes indeed
17:20:36 <hellais> the question is are we going to use it?
17:20:42 <hellais> is anybody strongly against using it?
17:20:52 <hellais> can we commit to trying it out for this month and seeing how it is?
17:21:10 <hellais> if we don't like it we can just stop using it next month and we don't really loose that much except maybe a little bit of time
17:21:12 <agrabeli> hellais: nope. I'd say let's try it out and see if it works for us?
17:21:16 <anadahz> Since we use Github adding Zenhub to the mix is not that tragic, is in a way using Travis or other Github hooks.
17:21:39 * darkk also likes bikeshed.io and will probably use it during next IRC meeting :)
17:22:09 <darkk> I agree that it worth trying to add some transparency.
17:22:24 <hellais> excellent!
17:22:44 <hellais> ok. So maybe we don't have much time to discuss the next item
17:23:28 <slacktopus> <sbs> darkk man, that's second order bikeshedding, that's brilliant!
17:23:54 <hellais> is there any other burning thing to bring up and talk about this week?
17:24:53 <agrabeli> hellais: nope
17:26:42 <hellais> ok good
17:26:47 <hellais> well thanks for attending1
17:26:50 <hellais> #endmeetinhg
17:26:54 <hellais> #endmeeting