19:03:48 <Tallguy-Nick> #startmeeting HOT Training WG
19:03:48 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Aug 29 19:03:48 2016 UTC.  The chair is Tallguy-Nick. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:03:48 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:04:26 <Tallguy-Nick> Hi everyone & welcome - meetbot is active this evening so I'm resuming the normal format
19:04:27 <russdeffner> Hi all, here but working on other things, so mostly just lurker for meeting
19:04:43 <Tallguy-Nick> welcome russdeffner lurker
19:05:52 <Tallguy-Nick> just to keep it in the minutes, can you each identify yourselves as here for the meeting please
19:06:04 <logrady> logrady - Laura O'Grady
19:06:20 <russdeffner> Russell Deffner
19:06:28 <RAytoun> RAytoun - Ralph
19:06:54 <Tallguy-Nick> OK, thanks - if anyone else wishes to join in, please feel free to do so
19:07:12 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Review/approval of agenda
19:07:18 <RAytoun> I saw that Blake had signed in
19:08:14 <Tallguy-Nick> Hi BlakeGirardot are you with us?
19:08:57 <Tallguy-Nick> ok - if he becomes free I'm sure he'll join in
19:09:12 <Tallguy-Nick> #link https://trello.com/b/ZYzEoama/hot-training-wg
19:10:13 <Tallguy-Nick> sorry, that link doesn't seem to be working - will try again shortly
19:11:06 <RAytoun> I managed to get through to the Trello page from that link
19:11:07 <Tallguy-Nick> #link https://trello.com/b/ZYzEoama/hot-training-wg
19:11:33 <Tallguy-Nick> same link! but seems now to be working
19:12:11 <Tallguy-Nick> logrady: is that link working for you?
19:13:29 <logrady> yes, thx. the link works. i'm logging in right now.
19:14:43 <Tallguy-Nick> OK - if anyone has anything else that needs adding, let us know
19:15:07 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Review/approval of previous meeting minutes
19:15:47 <Tallguy-Nick> - I've received an apology for late minutes and they should become available over the next few days. I have a copy of the log from IRC if needed.
19:16:13 <Tallguy-Nick> I'm intending to move on, but if anyone wants to query anything, let me know
19:16:54 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Quick start guide on LearnOSM for HOT TM
19:17:44 <Tallguy-Nick> I've heard nothing more on this subject for while now - wonder if we should mark it as pending and only review if there is an update
19:18:15 <Tallguy-Nick> pending = Projects on Hold/Ideas
19:19:25 <Tallguy-Nick> ok - moved to Projects on Hold
19:19:45 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic HOT Training centre
19:20:19 <Tallguy-Nick> Not sure if we have any stats. for the use of this site?
19:20:29 <Tallguy-Nick> #link http://courses.hotosm.org/
19:20:45 <russdeffner> not realy
19:20:55 <russdeffner> think it was 90 students last check
19:21:25 <russdeffner> still get new ones, not often though, and not many beyond the basics course
19:21:40 <logrady> does the site have or is the site set for log file analysis?
19:21:52 <russdeffner> partly hung up due to lack of participation in AWG
19:22:26 <russdeffner> there is internal/moodle tracking
19:23:38 <logrady> just realized that since signup is used (i'm assuming) to do the course that's probably a better metric
19:24:42 <russdeffner> you can view all courses as guest, so think we miss those numbers
19:25:33 <logrady> would be interesing to know what the motivation is there but probably not a priority in terms of short term goals for the site.
19:26:36 <russdeffner> yes, it's more about our volunteer workforce and having people trained for disaster response
19:27:41 <russdeffner> but I know some people are just viewing the material to help with external partner stuff, which might be the larger usage in future
19:29:01 <Tallguy-Nick> I thought there was also something in there from BlakeGirardot - I can't find it now
19:29:26 <russdeffner> there is a course in the works on highway tag africa
19:30:11 <russdeffner> think it's 'done' but coming up with badging/course completion criteria probably put hold on it
19:30:22 <Tallguy-Nick> I've started on the Activation section, but ran out of time - LearnOSM is keeping me very busy
19:30:57 <russdeffner> great to hear, understand the lack of time
19:32:07 <Tallguy-Nick> OK - think it would be good to develop this further.
19:32:35 <Tallguy-Nick> Does anyone have more on this subject, or shall I move us along?
19:32:50 <russdeffner> We'll see if/how next week's AWG goes; we talked about a review of Activation in general, might impact site
19:33:24 <russdeffner> or hopefully give a bit of guidance for how to promo/use it more effectively
19:34:51 <Tallguy-Nick> ok - will move us on now
19:35:19 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic LearnOSM staging site
19:35:55 <Tallguy-Nick> propose to move this into 'Projects on Hold/Ideas' as well at the moment
19:37:22 <Tallguy-Nick> ok - have moved the Trello card
19:37:48 <RAytoun> Anyone heard from Suzan lately?
19:38:45 <Tallguy-Nick> I haven't
19:39:02 <RAytoun> Seems to have dropped off the radar
19:40:15 <Tallguy-Nick> RAytoun: could you try contacting her please?
19:40:39 <RAytoun> OK, I will give it a try
19:41:13 <Tallguy-Nick> thanks for that. Are we happy if I change the topic from the official staging site?
19:41:42 <RAytoun> OK with me
19:41:50 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Backup for Nick - LearnOSM & Transifex processes
19:42:22 <Tallguy-Nick> OK - I'm not aware of any changes - but logrady I think you read through the existing documentation - did it make sense?
19:43:46 <logrady> yes, it makes sense. my suggested edits were basically superficial
19:44:15 <Tallguy-Nick> sorry, don't think I explained myself - did you understand how LearnOSM was setup
19:44:55 <logrady> not sure what you mean. the site itself or how to use LearnOSM to learn how to do a task
19:45:37 <Tallguy-Nick> the site itself - if you or someone else wanted to add / amend something, can it be seen how to do so
19:46:39 <logrady> i've read over quite a few pages at LearnOSM to teach myself how to participate in HOT, so JOSM pages, HOT pages but not rudimentary OSM pages as i'm experienced in that area.
19:47:18 <Tallguy-Nick> ok, thanks
19:47:51 <logrady> i had a few thoughts at the time about the content, mostly the way it's laid out rather than anything pedagogical.
19:48:58 <Tallguy-Nick> The documentation about how to add to or amend the site is under review / amendment and I think we need to keep working on that
19:49:03 <logrady> i agree with the suggestion from the last meeting about adding animated gifs as i saw them on other pages i found while searching for material. quite effective and much faster than watching a yt video. these are great but horrible if you want to go back and quickly find something.
19:49:11 <Tallguy-Nick> as well as the layout of the site to make navigation easier
19:50:13 <Tallguy-Nick> We'll have to keep working on that - animated gifs would be great in many places
19:50:13 <logrady> yes, the layout needs improvement in my opinion
19:50:38 <logrady> has there ever been any idea around adding a message forum?
19:50:59 <Tallguy-Nick> I don't think any of us have the skills to do that
19:51:59 <logrady> when i ran my self hosted site i used wordpress as the cms, there was a simple plug-in for that. i don't think that's available where the site is currently being hosted, correct?
19:52:30 <Tallguy-Nick> I don't know - I'm very much an amateur who has learnt a little
19:53:39 <logrady> it's it's jekyll on github right?
19:53:52 <Tallguy-Nick> yes, that's right
19:57:39 <logrady> ...looking for jekyll forum plug-in
19:58:27 <Tallguy-Nick> bear in mind that many visitors are not visiting the English language sections - I'm not sure if I could cope with a Japanese forum
19:58:42 <logrady> there's a forum to discuss jekyll but apparently not a forum for jekyll
19:59:09 <logrady> good point. we would need moderators for every language. a bit overwhelming.
19:59:51 <Tallguy-Nick> yes - we need a bigger team - the translators mainly confine themselves to working through Transifex and many are not expert mappers
20:01:09 <Tallguy-Nick> ok - something to consider for the future, - are we happy to move along on the agenda?
20:01:45 <logrady> sometimes the community comes after you build it. so if a message forum was added for each language it would populate with users that speak each language. volunteer moderators come forward after that. but i think there's probably other things to focus on right now.
20:02:19 <Tallguy-Nick> yes - I'd like to see more happen, but have trouble managing the current status
20:02:42 <logrady> have you tried to recuit people to help you with managing the site?
20:03:23 <Tallguy-Nick> a few people do help and there have been other attempts
20:04:30 <logrady> yes, that's an unfortunate side effect of using a large volunteer base to get things done.
20:05:23 <Tallguy-Nick> all help appreciated - shall I move the subject on to Mapathon management?
20:06:41 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Mapathon / Event Management - Howto
20:07:24 <Tallguy-Nick> In London at a Missing Maps Mapathon we made a couple of changes to our format - but I think it is too early to tell how successful tht has been
20:07:44 <Tallguy-Nick> Ralph may have more to say on this, but he seems to have dropped out
20:09:15 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Tasking Manager Admin module on LearnOSM
20:09:27 <Tallguy-Nick> #link http://nick-tallguy.github.io/en/coordination/tasking-manager-project-admin/
20:09:38 <Tallguy-Nick> Laura has carried out a detailed review, I have started, but yet to finish. Any updates are still 'pending' depending on discussion & agreement.
20:09:38 <Tallguy-Nick> Also as a result of Laura's review have started to investigate a site map for LearnOSM.
20:10:28 <logrady> if others want to read the review i can share a link to it in my dropbox account
20:11:38 <Tallguy-Nick> were my updates on your document visible to you? I may have to amend how I was doing my updates?
20:12:26 <logrady> i did not receive your updates. did you email them to me as an attachment?
20:12:26 <Tallguy-Nick> for RAytoun
20:12:29 <Tallguy-Nick> * apmon (~kaikruege@ucb-np2-71.colorado.edu) has joined
20:12:29 <Tallguy-Nick> <logrady> yes, that's an unfortunate side effect of using a large volunteer base to get things done.
20:12:29 <Tallguy-Nick> <Tallguy-Nick> all help appreciated - shall I move the subject on to Mapathon management?
20:12:29 <Tallguy-Nick> <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Mapathon / Event Management - Howto
20:12:29 <Tallguy-Nick> * MeetBot has changed the topic to: Mapathon / Event Management - Howto (Meeting topic: HOT Training WG)
20:12:30 <Tallguy-Nick> <Tallguy-Nick> In London at a Missing Maps Mapathon we made a couple of changes to our format - but I think it is too early to tell how successful tht has been
20:12:32 <Tallguy-Nick> <Tallguy-Nick> Ralph may have more to say on this, but he seems to have dropped out
20:12:33 <Tallguy-Nick> <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Tasking Manager Admin module on LearnOSM
20:12:35 <Tallguy-Nick> * MeetBot has changed the topic to: Tasking Manager Admin module on LearnOSM (Meeting topic: HOT Training WG)
20:12:38 <Tallguy-Nick> <Tallguy-Nick>  #link http://nick-tallguy.github.io/en/coordination/tasking-manager-project-admin/
20:12:42 <Tallguy-Nick> <Tallguy-Nick> Laura has carried out a detailed review, I have started, but yet to finish. Any updates are still 'pending' depending on discussion & agreement.
20:12:45 <Tallguy-Nick> <Tallguy-Nick> Also as a result of Laura's review have started to investigate a site map for LearnOSM.
20:12:47 <Tallguy-Nick> <logrady> if others want to read the review i can share a link to it in my dropbox account
20:12:48 <Tallguy-Nick> * RAytoun (~56b1cecd@shenron.openstreetmap.org) has joined
20:13:06 <RAytoun> Hi. I am back. Sorry, my computer froze then crashed... One of the benefits of Windows 10.
20:13:24 <Tallguy-Nick> Sorry logrady no, I started to update the document but ran out of time. I have a copy on my computer which I plan to finish then share with you
20:13:44 <logrady> ok, i will wait for that.
20:13:49 <Tallguy-Nick> OK RAytoun I've pasted in the period you missed - can change the agenda back to Mapathons if you like
20:14:15 <RAytoun> Whenever you are ready
20:14:34 <Tallguy-Nick> OK - Tasking Manager Admin is still an active review
20:15:11 <Tallguy-Nick> we also should try to complete the module on #topic HOT Training centre for Activation, which is relevant
20:15:26 <Tallguy-Nick> #link http://courses.hotosm.org/
20:16:31 <Tallguy-Nick> If everyone is happy, will keep this one active, but return to Mapathon management for Ralph?
20:16:56 <logrady> ok
20:17:03 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Mapathon / Event Management - Howto
20:17:27 <RAytoun> I guess that's me
20:18:42 <RAytoun> I have emailed my latest version to the training working group. The additions are highlighted in yellow and green.
20:20:10 <logrady> i don't think i'm on that mailing list
20:20:21 <Tallguy-Nick> logrady: have you received the email?
20:20:29 <RAytoun> One of the problems I have is with a method for organisers to understand the return rate or the success of newly trained mappers continuing to map.
20:21:00 <logrady> no, i have not rec'd it
20:21:20 <Tallguy-Nick> I've just sent it again - give it a moment please then check
20:21:53 <RAytoun> My problem was not knowing the user name for the attendees so I have asked the London organisers to include a "register" to be available at the Mapathon so we can get user names.
20:22:34 <logrady> i think retention rates an overall issue with OSM in general. aren't approx. 90% of edits done by 10% members?
20:22:41 <RAytoun> Armed with this we can see whether they have continued mapping after the event.
20:23:12 <RAytoun> I have those statistics and I agree with you on that score
20:23:35 <RAytoun> But then mapping is not everyones pleasure
20:23:44 <logrady> when validating in hot tasking manager you can spot those who are from a mapathon but i think it would be tedious to compile a list of usernames that way.
20:25:28 <RAytoun> Laura, do you have another process for this?
20:26:35 <logrady> only by going into HOT TM, looking for task that was associated with a mapathon then checking usernames of those who participated
20:27:09 <RAytoun> I am not talking about having a list for all Mapathons, just the one that concerns the person organising.
20:27:10 <logrady> most mapathoners have only a few edits over a short period of time, use ID as their editor.
20:28:16 <logrady> yes, if you know the task number associatted with the maoathon you can look it up in the TM. There's probably a backend way to scrape all the users. But it would likely be easier to just ask mapathon organizers to provide this for you.
20:28:43 <logrady> they would, however, have to ask everyone at a mapathon to supply their login credientials.
20:28:55 <RAytoun> OK Laura, I understand where you are coming from
20:29:07 <logrady> ok, good
20:29:22 <RAytoun> I am involved in writing the guide for Mapathon organisers
20:30:09 <RAytoun> This would be one of the tools they could use to understand their specific Mapathon and judge it's success
20:30:30 <logrady> ok, so it's part of an evaluation, a metric of sorts
20:30:53 <logrady> what other metrics are being collected to measure success?
20:31:35 <RAytoun> While they may all log on with Eventbrite with their email this does not help us to follow their work as the work is all done under their user name.
20:32:36 <logrady> are you saying they go right from eventbright through osm to the tasking manager with one login step or they just register with Eventbrite and that provides instructions/URLs to go from there?
20:34:58 <RAytoun> No. I am saying we have a list of attendees because they get tickets through Eventbrite for our event using their email. But the email does not help us to track their ongoing mapping to measure the ongoing statistics of that event
20:35:48 <RAytoun> All their work done for HOT, Missing Maps and OSM is done with their user name
20:36:15 <logrady> ok, i understand. then the mapathon organizers will have to ask participants for their username
20:36:49 <RAytoun> Correct, and that is what the idea of a register is for
20:38:19 <RAytoun> So each group's event will have a register for their series of events
20:39:06 <RAytoun> Any questions?
20:39:07 <logrady> does the TM use MySQL in the backend? if so queries can be done on a batch of usernames
20:41:27 <Tallguy-Nick> #link https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2
20:42:11 <RAytoun> The TM cannot differentiate between a mapper who has logged onto that task on the tasking manager from there home on the other side of the world... to a mapper logged on to that task at a Mapathon. All it can tell you is who was editing at that time on that task.
20:43:42 <Tallguy-Nick> logrady: appears to be a postgres database
20:43:47 <logrady> ok, tm is using postgresql, a type of database that queries can be run on, everyone who uses tm has a username and a page that shows their usage statistics, so we know those metrics are being collected.
20:44:57 <RAytoun> Again, those metrics are by user name.
20:46:04 <logrady> i think i agreed with your suggestion that you need to ask the mapathon organizers for the usernames of participants if you're going to be able to use this outcome measure.
20:46:37 <logrady> i'm not sure what you're asking (or maybe i'm confused and you aren't asking anything ;)
20:46:59 <RAytoun> The London organisers have agreed to give this a trial, hopefully at the Mapathon on the 6th September
20:49:05 <Tallguy-Nick> ok - think we should have more idea of success on the following working group meeting
20:49:43 <RAytoun> Laura, did Nick forward my email? If so could you contact me  for further discussion after the meeting?
20:50:00 <logrady> yes, i have it.
20:50:46 <RAytoun> OK, please email me.
20:50:55 <logrady> your email was incuded in the fwd msg. i will get back to you with comments ASAP.
20:51:23 <RAytoun> Lovely. Nick, I have finished for now, do you want to move on?
20:51:30 <Tallguy-Nick> ok
20:51:42 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic LearnOSM updates
20:51:53 <Tallguy-Nick> #link https://piwik.hotosm.org/index.php?module=CoreHome&action=index&idSite=3&period=range&date=2016-08-15,2016-08-29#/?module=VisitsSummary&action=index&idSite=3&period=range&date=2016-08-02,2016-08-15
20:52:57 <Tallguy-Nick> My earlier comment about Japanese can be seen better from the following link
20:53:01 <Tallguy-Nick> #link https://piwik.hotosm.org/index.php?module=CoreHome&action=index&idSite=3&period=range&date=2016-08-15,2016-08-29#/?module=Actions&action=menuGetPageUrls&idSite=3&period=range&date=2016-08-15,2016-08-29
20:53:21 <Tallguy-Nick> most of the bounces are from English - the other languages are from visitors who know where they are going
20:54:08 <Tallguy-Nick> I think - maybe?
20:54:22 <logrady> could also interpet that to mean that bounces by english users didn't want/know what the site was
20:55:08 <logrady> that's the problem with log files, difficult to know what the users are thinking, can see what they are doing, kind of.
20:55:24 <RAytoun> Good to see the stats holding steady for viewing. Could the average time on page mean they found what they were looking for?
20:55:44 <Tallguy-Nick> yes  - I know when I personally found the site I didn't investigate it, and just moved on - bounced
20:56:45 <Tallguy-Nick> I think the site is actually best for users in other countries - it's just that it starts out in English
20:57:44 <Tallguy-Nick> Work continues on Myanmar translations - staging site has been updated and there is more to be added also have a translator working on Portuguese.
20:58:14 <Tallguy-Nick> I'm conscious that time is getting on - are we okay to move on again
20:58:37 <logrady> yes
20:58:41 <RAytoun> Yes
20:58:44 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Any Other Business
20:58:58 <Tallguy-Nick> is there a volunteer to create the minutes?
20:59:42 <RAytoun> I would offer but I do not know the procedure
21:00:21 <Tallguy-Nick> ok - probably easier if I do it - meetbot has done most of the work
21:00:44 <Tallguy-Nick> if there's nothing else ...
21:01:05 <Tallguy-Nick> #topic Date of Next Meeting  - 12th September 2016, 19.00hrs UTC
21:01:16 <RAytoun> Just the details of the next meeting?
21:01:31 <RAytoun> OK there they are
21:01:52 <Tallguy-Nick> Thank you all for your involvement - keep up the good work.
21:02:05 <Tallguy-Nick> still a couple of reviews outstanding if we can all join in
21:02:08 <logrady> thank u
21:02:22 <RAytoun> Thank you Nick
21:02:25 <Tallguy-Nick> #endmeeting