19:58:50 <zumbi> #startmeeting
19:58:50 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Jan 19 19:58:50 2010 UTC.  The chair is zumbi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:58:50 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:59:06 <zumbi> #chair mrvn
19:59:06 <MeetBot> Current chairs: mrvn zumbi
19:59:24 <zumbi> #topic cross toolchains
20:00:38 <zumbi> There has been some changes in the design basically affecting to naming and we add a gcc-cross-defaults package
20:01:16 <zumbi> Work is in progress
20:01:31 <mrvn> I would like tripplet-gcc to look into /usr/include as well as /usr/include/triplet. That ways arch:all dev packages and multiarch dev packages can be used as well as plainly unpacking foreign debs into a sysroot.
20:02:11 <zumbi> sure, we need a compiler being able to work with multiarch scheme
20:02:14 <mrvn> And gcc-cross-defaults should only provide the tripplet-gcc links where triplet-gcc-x.y is actualy installed.
20:02:38 <zumbi> sure, that's the idea
20:03:27 <mrvn> Will gcc-cross-defaults depend on cross-gcc-x.y and all <triplet>-gcc-x.y provide that?
20:03:37 <mrvn> So that it installs at least one of them.
20:03:39 <zumbi> to the previous statement it would be worth to look to implement multiarch paths into the sysroot, so making  the compiler --sysroot=0 (root fs /)
20:03:56 <mrvn> zumbi: exactly.
20:04:19 <zumbi> can work with debootstraps (pointing sysroot to them) and with / system
20:04:56 <zumbi> ok, so work is in progress
20:05:07 <zumbi> next topic?
20:05:28 <zumbi> #multiarch
20:05:37 <zumbi> #topic Multiarch
20:06:06 <zumbi> Changes have been done in dpkg-cross and apt-cross to support newer schemes
20:06:15 <zumbi> Thanks Neil :)
20:06:56 <zumbi> next?
20:07:41 <mrvn> I don't agree with Neils conffile that tells dpkg-cross when not to use libfoo-arm-cross. I think that should be left out, at least for now so packages don't force people to update to multiarch packages as soon as the appear.
20:08:12 <mrvn> Esspecially when "apt-get update" will update that list.
20:08:42 <zumbi> is it harmful someway?
20:09:18 <zumbi> does it break something? is it scalable?
20:09:26 <mrvn> say you have stable and unstable in sources list with stable being the default. The converted packages would suddenly require the unstable multiarch package instead of the libfoo-arm-cross from stable.
20:09:56 <zumbi> is there an alternative?
20:10:26 <mrvn> Keep the list empty. Or only list packages that are only available as multiarch.
20:11:16 <mrvn> i.e. as long apt sees a non-multiarch libfoo libfoo is not added to the list and dpkg-cross will keep using libfoo-arm-cross.
20:12:21 <mrvn> The user than has the choice of stable (non-multiarch) libfoo-arm-cross or unstable libfoo:arm + libfoo-arm-cross dummy deb.
20:12:54 <zumbi> ok, so, discussion is in progress in the mailing lists (debian-embedded)
20:13:47 <zumbi> you could try to send a follow up to Neil changes on dpkg-cross mail with your tests
20:13:50 <mrvn> yeah. Just have to convince Neil what a good default config should be. :)
20:14:03 <zumbi> ok :)
20:14:12 <zumbi> next?
20:14:32 <zumbi> #topic Crush 2.0 release
20:14:44 <mrvn> Do we want multiarch packages converted and installed with non-multiarch dpkg(-cross)?
20:15:40 <zumbi> what for?
20:16:17 <mrvn> Only reason would be to test some new package without having to convert the rest of the chroot to multiarch.
20:16:48 <zumbi> well, you can try to write your tool if needed it
20:17:14 <zumbi> if it becomes necesary, someone will probably do it
20:17:15 <mrvn> Nah, just wondering if anyone would want that. I have no problems forcing people to update dpkg to use latest unstable packages.
20:17:38 <zumbi> we need to fit everything before the freeze
20:18:15 <zumbi> anyway, going back to topic
20:18:51 <mrvn> I have no idea about Crush 2.0. Anyone else even awake?
20:18:54 <zumbi> I wonder if it would be worth to try to rebuild crush with an emulated environment like sbox or similars
20:19:24 <zumbi> mrvn: don't worry, just taking notes for the record :)
20:19:48 <zumbi> mrvn: but crush is basically a cross compiled rootfs
20:20:25 <zumbi> mrvn: with base changes for minimal (busybox based, perl not required) size.
20:21:02 <zumbi> #topic uClibc in Debian
20:21:20 <mrvn> ever tried to run a buildd for cross building?
20:21:32 <mrvn> uclibc: yes please.
20:21:58 <zumbi> We have uclibc-source package and work should start towards a new cross compiler
20:22:36 <zumbi> mrvn: yes, crush was built that way
20:22:55 <zumbi> mrvn: emdebian-* packages have the autobuilders scripts
20:23:22 <zumbi> mrvn: but not with uclibc, that only has been done within slind.org
20:23:51 <mrvn> I would like to have a i486-linux-uclibc port for my fileserver. Just base, rtorrent, apache, nfs, rsync.
20:23:52 <zumbi> mrvn: and by some users locally at their home
20:24:12 <mrvn> s/apache/other small http server/
20:24:35 <zumbi> mrvn: you could have it, it is posible to do it, the hard part is integrating that within Debian
20:25:13 <mrvn> Cross compiled though. The fileserver is too slow to run a buildd.
20:25:48 <zumbi> uhm.. slind.org has it
20:26:16 <mrvn> "www.slind.org uses an invalid security certificate." hehe
20:26:40 <zumbi> but if you also want Debian benefits (upgrades, security, ..) need to integrate them with Debian
20:26:45 <mrvn> WTF is the point of using https with a self signed cert?
20:27:02 <mrvn> zumbi: how well does the uclibc-source package work?
20:27:21 <zumbi> mrvn: franckly, i have not look to it yet
20:27:44 <zumbi> but it probably should be updated with last release
20:28:49 <zumbi> Should we end the meeting? or do you have anything else to comment about?
20:29:16 <mrvn> so uclibc is the big questionmark for this meating.
20:29:44 <zumbi> actually it has been discussed, we just need to work on them
20:29:55 <mrvn> Not realy. Only other things to mention would be that both dpkg and apt now have an multiarch branch. So there is some progress.
20:29:57 <zumbi> now that dpkg has a Debian name for the port
20:30:29 <mrvn> Was there any progress towards the DAK tracking Build-Depends: xxx-source relationships?
20:30:52 <zumbi> mrvn: I have no idea, but i'll test it with an upload sometime soon
20:31:01 <zumbi> hi codehelp
20:31:14 <codehelp> hi zumbi
20:31:38 <mrvn> zumbi: Maybe you could detail how gcc-cross-defaults is going to be implemented.
20:31:39 <zumbi> we are ending the meeting (just mrvn and I) if you like to add or comment about something else?
20:32:04 <codehelp> just hanging around after replying to goswin's email to the list
20:32:18 <zumbi> ok, so lets end
20:32:37 <zumbi> #endmeeting