11:00:24 #startmeeting 11:00:24 Meeting started Sun Feb 5 11:00:24 2012 UTC. The chair is OdyX. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 11:00:24 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 11:01:07 Apsu, kilobyte, lindi-, Mirv, pabs, Sicelo, wolog, Zeroedout, znalo, zumbi: I propose to start the planned IRC meeting now (we are at 11h00 UTC, right ?). 11:01:31 I'm here 11:01:34 #topic 1. Presentation roundtable 11:02:01 Is there some sort of agenda for the meeting? 11:02:23 Zeroedout: agenda is : http://whiteboard.debian.net/debian-mobile_860048.rst 11:03:07 sweet thanks 11:05:49 hello, i'm currently at fosdem with a limited network connection, but better than nothing 11:06:24 okay nice. As I pinged everyone present at 11:02, let's wait some more minutes... 11:07:15 :) 11:07:53 I'm going to take this time to bitch about printing in Linux, is everyone okay with that? 11:08:17 i've also to admit i've not followed the chan recently, do you have a url with some the list of topics ? 11:08:45 [03:03:18] Zeroedout: agenda is : http://whiteboard.debian.net/debian-mobile_860048.rst 11:10:50 * pabs apologises for lateness 11:11:10 * Zeroedout spanks pabs 11:11:58 oups, sorry, my phone'sscren is not big enough ;) i missed it 11:13:11 pabs: No problem. Let's start with the introduction round. Everyone of you, please rapidly introduce yourself, in one-two sentences. 11:13:56 * pabs is Paul Wise, owner of an OpenMoko FreeRunner, Debian member, but not working on mobile stuff at all 11:14:11 Hi, Alishams Hassam, former director at Free Geek Vancouver, Director at vanLUG and linux enthusiast 11:14:24 lol, openmoko owner as well 11:15:27 * OdyX is Didier Raboud, owner of OpenMoko FreeRunner brick, Debian member, tried-to-revive the former pkg-meego team, tried to have people meet at DebConf11 about "Mobile". 11:15:48 and honestly, not much time these days for mobile-* 11:16:34 Olivier Guerrier, sw manager at Zodiac aerospace, working on a in house linux distro, debian based, not really involded in embeded wotk, but following it closely, my phone is a galaxy note (sorry ;) 11:18:58 Okay, thanks. Let's move forward trough the meeting. 11:18:59 #topic 2. Immediate actions 11:19:36 * lindi- noticed the meeting 11:19:59 My idea behind that point is to gather a list of #action 's to be done "rapidly" to have more people join -mobile and have discussion started. 11:20:38 One idea was to get the multiple lists around to close and have people join -mobile. Opinions ? 11:20:39 for those who came late, this is the agenda: http://whiteboard.debian.net/debian-mobile_860048.rst 11:20:57 is there a list of lists? 11:21:03 OdyX: which lists in particular? 11:22:18 There is no list of lists, but for example pkg-meego-maintainers@lists.alioth.debian.org 11:23:12 sounds good to me. The debian mobile community is fairly tiny so better to have it all in one place 11:23:33 Zeroedout: but debian-mobile isn't about debian mobile community? it has a narrower scope: mobile user interfaces? 11:23:41 that also asks a new question: should we open a new alioth project (to have bugs and automated mails go there instead of on debian-mobile@) ? 11:25:26 I don't think we have enough traffic to need a new list yet 11:25:39 Agreed. 11:25:56 #info No need to create a -mobile-specific Alioth project. 11:26:22 I tend to thin that defining a clear scope can helŝ (general or specific to gui) and yes the less lists the better 11:26:35 #action OdyX will make sure to get pkg-meego-maintainers@l.a.d.o closed. 11:27:53 wolog: isn't the scope as proposed in the mailing list annoucement enough ? 11:28:31 #url http://lists.debian.org/debian-mobile/2012/01/msg00001.html Scope definition (from the mailing list annoucement). 11:29:19 OdyX: it is, problem is that it seems people just read the name and think it's about everything related to using debian on a mobile device 11:29:46 Okay. What do we do to help, then ? 11:30:43 point folks at -kernel if they start discussing kernel stuff or -boot for installer stuff 11:31:01 I don't think this will be too much of a problem 11:31:02 Agreed. 11:31:54 #agreed The "Mobile" scope is sufficiently well defined for us to direct folks at -kernel if they start discussing kernel stuff or -boot for installer stuff. 11:32:14 .oO(Just rise your voice if I'm being too fast or directive...) 11:32:41 #agree 11:32:59 #agreed 11:33:05 Are there other immediate actions ? 11:34:18 merging wiki.d.o/Smartphone into /Mobile 11:34:24 adding more folks to https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile#People 11:35:05 pabs: the merge is point 4. in the agenda, but agreed for the second. 11:35:14 ah 11:35:33 pabs: hmm, /Mobile does not mention user interfaces at all, is it intended to be more general than the mailing list? 11:35:46 and it even discusses kernel :) 11:36:09 I think it is more general yeah 11:36:10 Okay. Let's reorder the agenda as we are deriving. 11:36:39 #topic 3. Wiki namespace: Merge /Mobile and /Smartphone, + add more people to /Mobile#People. 11:36:58 So. Is the merge necessary ? 11:38:07 I think there is a lot of redundant stuff. Smartphone is pretty disorganised in parts, I think I would prefer to have just /Mobile, with some smartphone-specific parts 11:38:28 + we can use other pages under /Mobile . 11:38:29 I'm in general in favor of merging/removing wiki pages that have not been touched for a while 11:38:46 wiki.openmoko.org for example is a horrible mess :) 11:39:12 /Smartphone was a user's "I want Debian on my Android. oh it actually takes work? lets abandon this idea then" 11:39:23 lindi-: holy fuck yes it is 11:39:41 lol, I think we have consensus on the merge 11:39:42 Do we have volunteers for that work ? 11:39:59 I can help, but I may need a couple reminders through the week 11:40:07 does meetbot do reminders? 11:40:11 #agreed wiki.d.o pages /Smartphone and /Mobile should be re-organized and merged. 11:40:15 I wrote a fair amount of /Smartphone, was planning on working on that but would prefer if others beat me to it 11:40:42 Zeroedout: it does #action (#agreed is only doable by Chair (today, I'm), #action is doable by anyone) 11:40:44 Zeroedout: I can poke you about it 11:41:24 sounds good 11:41:31 so Zeroedout, you can write #action Zeroedout works towards merging /Smartphone and /Mobile (+ in which delay ?) 11:41:54 #action Zeroedout works towards merging /Smartphone and /Mobile 11:42:04 #action pabs to poke Zeroedout about merging /Smartphone into /Mobile 11:42:09 :) 11:42:11 great, guys ! 11:42:11 anyways, hacking kernels and boot loaders to make it possible to run debian on different devices is something that people already understand quite well. having a usable user interface is something where I don't see a good solution yet, I think we should concentrate on that 11:42:35 before that^ are we done with the "Wiki namespace" agenda point ? 11:42:55 on wiki stuff, I would like to point out the InstallingDebianOn namespace 11:44:10 #info There is the /InstallingDebianOn namespace 11:44:32 Ah, about the wiki... 11:44:57 #action OdyX Creates a section / subpage to list the meetings (both IRL and IRC), including agendas and minutes. 11:45:05 More on wiki ? 11:45:31 #topic 4. Long-term goals 11:45:41 lindi-: can you elaborate your above position ? 11:46:28 .oO(Here, anyone can use the #info, #idea, #action , #help and #link tags) 11:46:37 #idea perhaps we should have a work session looking at all the UXen, their status upstream and in Debian 11:46:45 there's a general lack of good free software mobile user interfaces that have a future 11:47:05 #info pabs put some links to various mobile UXen on wiki.d.o/Smartphone 11:47:10 pabs: Real-life Sprint ? 11:47:11 android is probably the only one that seems to be be free, good and have a future but it is unfortunately not very suitable for debian 11:47:37 lindi-: plasma-active 11:48:01 #link http://wiki.debian.org/Smartphone#UI 11:48:11 svuorela: do they have a calendar? 11:48:29 lindi-: full groupware solutions. 11:48:31 my question is this mist is abouy "packaging" only (so someone else must take care of the gui itself) oorif what's onside the packahe does lsa matter 11:48:52 svuorela: the screenshots at http://plasma-active.org/ mention things like Okular and Kwrite, aren't these desktop apps? 11:49:12 there are lot of on gping project, for example in the efl area 11:49:28 wolog: generally in Debian we only package stuff and do development upstream outside Debian 11:49:41 lindi-: they are. and they are kind of like the only two desktop apps that doesn't have a mobile edition. Okular is though very touch usable. And a mobile okular is very high on the plasma active people's TODO list 11:49:56 svuorela: also the screenshots show an ui that is usable on a tablet but I'd have hard time using that on the openmoko screen 11:50:23 I think Plasma Active would be too slow on the OpenMoko? 11:50:32 openmoko screen might be a bit too small for the current one, but a n9/n900/n950 (nokia) it is running quite okay. 11:50:48 svuorela: are there any plans for packaging Plasma Active? 11:50:50 svuorela: .oO(I know I have been asking you that every 4 months, but still...) What amount of work would it need to integrate /package Plasma Active in Debian? 11:51:10 pabs: the gta02 might be a bit too slow, but the gta04 should definately be able 11:51:38 OdyX: 2-3 weeks spare time work of someone with clue, and a couple of swift kicks in the rear to people trying to put up obstacles. 11:52:39 svuorela: is there some way to test it without n900? 11:52:57 lindi-: what do you mean by 'test it' ? 11:53:08 on a device? 11:53:45 svuorela: I guess running in on a desktop would make it possible to evalute it too 11:53:51 svuorela: maybe in some emulation 11:54:35 lindi-: there is opensuse live images by openslx ('balsam') at least. 11:54:43 Okay. We are approaching 1 hour meeting time. 11:54:44 for ix86 11:55:04 We are at the topic "Long-Term goals". 11:55:42 My personal feeling is that we definitely lack manpower; Opinions ? 11:56:08 * pabs agrees 11:56:28 Is anyone willing to hire me ? ;-) 11:56:56 I can pay in your compliments and possible free beer if you come to Vancouver 11:57:32 hehe 11:57:52 Let's rephrase the question differently: what reasonable goal can we set to ourselves (and in which timeframe) ? 11:58:16 I think we cannot aim for anything released with Wheezy. Our goal can probably only be for Wheezy+1. 11:58:40 unless svuorela thinks it might be realistic to have plasma-active by then. 12:00:01 it could be done, but it would require manpower that pkg-kde doesn't have. 12:00:27 svuorela: is there manpower "available" on the Ubuntu side ? 12:00:38 dunno. 12:01:08 Okay. Despite explicit consensus, I think we mostly agree then. 12:01:35 #agreed Plasma-Active is the most realistic "Mobile" UI that should get packaged in Debian. 12:01:58 #agreed Despite it's importance, there is a clear lack of manpower to get Plasma-Active packaged in Debian. 12:02:44 svuorela: would a real-life one-weekend sprint with 3-4 clueful people be enough ? 12:03:04 all other people: Would you be interested in such a sprint ? 12:03:31 OdyX: no. I would expect too much of the work to be things that can't be parallelized. 12:03:36 * pabs lives too far away from any likely location for such a sprint 12:04:10 haven't used plasma-active so I can't really have an opinion yet :/ 12:04:39 lindi-: there is very soon going to be 7" tablets on the market with plasma-active. so that's how 'ready' it is. 12:04:58 svuorela: reasonably hackable to get Debian on them ? 12:05:09 OdyX: should be. 12:05:26 svuorela: yeah but tablets are a different thing 12:05:53 lindi-: from openmokophone, yes. from n9/n900/n950 not that much. 12:06:07 So if I try to further summarize (continuing on the two #agreed above), there is currently no manpower to get that done ? 12:07:51 ah. What about Mer ? Is there anything we can re-use / build-on from them ? 12:08:14 mer's platform or mer's UI ? 12:08:27 the first 12:10:41 #help We need clueful manpower willing to help / collaborate towards packaging plasma-active. 12:12:24 Okay. We are past the one-hour for the meeting duration. 12:12:46 #info The Mer project pursues similar goals than Debian-Mobile. 12:13:01 Anything else to mention about our Long-Term Goals ? 12:15:19 * pabs can't think of anything 12:15:30 okay, thanks. 12:15:48 Now to our final Topic for today: 12:15:54 #topic 5. Next IRC meeting, at better times ? 12:16:26 According to pabs' proposal to follow the Games Team procedure, the next meeting should happen in 3 months from now, what do you think ? 12:17:16 with a agenda of "did any magic manpower appear since last time" ? 12:18:08 svuorela: that sure would be a pity, but there have been some #actions that people proposed to do. Review / Acknowledge them (done or "not yet") would be good anyway. 12:18:17 .oO(We can also just "give up"...) 12:23:47 Okay. No opinions. I think having regular meetings helps nevertheless. 12:24:15 #action OdyX calls for a meeting during May (Doodle, Agenda), on the mailing-list. 12:24:25 #topic 6. Varia ? 12:24:31 Anything else to add ? 12:25:24 #endmeeting