12:00:50 <h01ger> #startmeeting Holger Levsen - all you ever wanted to know about Debian Edu
12:00:50 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Jun  3 12:00:50 2019 UTC.  The chair is h01ger. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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12:01:02 <h01ger> #chair highvoltage
12:01:02 <MeetBot> Current chairs: h01ger highvoltage
12:01:12 <h01ger> so, hi
12:01:45 * h01ger hopes some people are here for this event :)
12:03:27 <h01ger> i'll first tell about how i got involved in debian edu, and then i'm happy to get some questions
12:04:16 <h01ger> i've also collected some quotes Sam Harman, our dpl, which were slighlty off, and which i'd like to correct/append
12:04:58 <h01ger> i'm using Debian since 1995, DebConf3 in Oslo in 2003 was my first DebConf, that was at a time when d-i development was funded by the skolelinux foundation in Norway and Debian Edu and Skolelinux were just 'merged' together, because in the beginning, they started independently, Debian Edu was founded by Raphael Hertzog in France, while Skolelinux was a different initiative started in Norway
12:05:22 <h01ger> (and now excuse me please as i have to restart my VM here... brb in 2min)
12:07:07 <h01ger> re
12:07:33 <h01ger> so in 2003 i learned about Debian Edu / Skolelinux for the first time
12:09:02 <h01ger> but i was still doing my baby steps in contributing to debian, which i've started slowly in 2001, then got distracted by forming the video team in 2005, so my first contributions to src:debian-edu* packages where in 2006 in subversion
12:10:29 <h01ger> at that time, Debian Edu had many packages which were modified compared to "real Debian"
12:11:19 <h01ger> http://ftp.skolelinux.org/skolelinux/etch_needs_love.html (which was in 2007) shows 27 modified source packages
12:11:24 <h01ger> so there was progress
12:11:49 <h01ger> http://ftp.skolelinux.org/skolelinux/lenny_needs_love.html has 13 modified src packages in 2009
12:16:07 <h01ger> http://ftp.skolelinux.org/skolelinux/squeeze_needs_love.html then only had 7 modified source packages in 2011
12:16:42 <h01ger> http://ftp.skolelinux.org/skolelinux/wheezy_needs_love.html had 5 modified src pkgs in 2013
12:17:34 <h01ger> and for jessie in 2015, we finally managed to not have any modified source package, though we only managed that for the 2nd or 3rd pointrelease.
12:17:57 <h01ger> so stretch in 2017 was the first release were from day 1 we were part of debian stable
12:18:28 <h01ger> while buster in 2019 will be the first release, which has Debian Edu installation images build on Debian infrastructure on cdimage.debian.org
12:18:40 <h01ger> btw, i'd welcome any quetsions or additional remarks..
12:19:52 <highvoltage> thanks for the history and for all the work. I also like that debian-edu moved from kde to xfce, much simpler and kinder to older hardware
12:20:07 <pabs> where are Debian Edu deployments located around the world? and in which kind of educational institutions?
12:20:26 <h01ger> for buster there will be two kinds of images: a cd image and a bluray disc image, which is suited for offline installations. both come as i386 and amd64 flavors and both also exists as non-free-with-firmware variants
12:20:58 <h01ger> pabs: let me get to that in a moment. i'd like to stay on the technical topics for now
12:21:42 <h01ger> highvoltage: yes, we used to default to kde for a long time to ease people coming from windows. nowadays we support kde, gnome, mate, xfce and 2 or 3 other deskstops environments
12:22:07 <h01ger> which probably gets me to the next technical milestone, which IMNSHO is debian-edu-doc
12:23:31 <h01ger> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Etch was the first "new" version of src:debian-edu-doc, which at that time i converted to what it is since then: the manual is developed on the wiki, in 15 or so pages, each forming a chapter
12:24:05 <h01ger> so https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Lenny exists as well, and Sqeeze, Wheezy, Stretch and Buster as well
12:24:17 <h01ger> then these wiki pages are exported as docbook
12:24:22 <highvoltage> QUESTION: so, since LTSP is kind of not going to support thin clients (impossible to do like in the old days due to wayland etc) in the future, does debian-edu currently have any plans to support any other kind of remote desktop technology like xrdp, etc? (sorry if you meant to stick with doc questions now please answer later insted)
12:24:41 <h01ger> these are then translated via .po files, and rendered into .html, .pdf and .epub
12:25:02 <h01ger> The Debian Edu Buster Manual is fully translated to French, German, Italian, Danish, Dutch, Norwegian Bokmål and Japanese.
12:25:03 <h01ger> Partly translated versions exist for Polish, Spanish, Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese.
12:25:29 <h01ger> today translation teams can decide whether they use .po files and commit them directly to git, or translate via the weblate web service
12:26:40 <h01ger> highvoltage: i believe this future question has not been addressed yet. Mike Gabriel (sunweaver) is maintaining some remote desktop packages and i trust we'll find some solution for bullseye
12:27:19 <h01ger> for the manual, we always maintain two versions: next stable and current stable.
12:27:53 <h01ger> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Buster/HowTo/NetworkClients#Remote_Desktop has some documentation about remote desktops
12:29:09 <h01ger> regarding pabs question about Debian Edu deployments in the world.. this is harder to answer. 10y ago, there were >200 schools in Norway using Debian Edu and a vibrant Debian Edu community in Norway. Nowadays it has become much more quite there, at least, from whats visible to me
12:29:58 <h01ger> similarily, the spanish region of extremadura once converted tens of thousands computers to their debian variant, which was based on debian edu for some time, and now its 'just' their own debian distro
12:31:12 <h01ger> Debian Edu is used in several many schools in germany (schweer, sunweaver and Natureshadow can talk more about this, as they work with schools directly), however its also hard to get infos on this, as the education system in germany is federal, so there are 16 different school systems in germany...
12:32:01 <h01ger> i know Debian Edu is used since 15y or so in Hamburg, my home town, but i've seen very little public information on this. i defintily know its still used here, but i have no url to point to, which is kinda said
12:33:03 <urbec> old docs refer to a building/meeting place in real world belonging to Debian edu - "Lern und Testzentrum". What happened to that?
12:33:12 <h01ger> in general, Debian Edu is btw also not limited to schools or universities. its a Debian system which is preconfigured with a central ldap server and some services setup (which, check the manual  :) and can equally be used in small (or not so small) offices or businesses
12:33:29 <h01ger> we do pre-select some eductaion apps, but its debian and trivial to customize that
12:33:49 <schweer> the Lern und Testzentrum is gone since some years
12:34:11 <h01ger> urbec: i believe you are referering to skolelinux.de, a german branch.
12:34:20 <urbec> yes
12:34:29 <valhalla> how easy/hard would it be to customize the services installed/configuration (as opposed to the preinstalled education apps)?
12:34:54 <h01ger> debian edu is kinda two fold: there's the main project, Debian Edu, which develops the software. and then there are local branches, which deploy it and do marketing in a region
12:35:17 <schweer> we had reports from single schools in Austria, Switzerland and the Netherlands (different education levels)
12:35:32 <Natureshadow> Ok, so as to the "practical" part ;)
12:35:55 <h01ger> today, skolelinux.de is driven by teckids e.v. / co Tarent GmbH, which is Natureshadow's employer (i believe)
12:36:22 <h01ger> valhalla: that very much depends on which services and how much customisation you want.
12:36:42 <h01ger> we dont preconfigure a configuration management system like salt or ansible
12:36:57 <Natureshadow> (tarent is not involved. They just provide a letter box)
12:37:32 <h01ger> Natureshadow: i see. maybe make this clearer on skolelinux.de then?
12:37:44 <h01ger> happy to answer more questions
12:38:37 <schweer> valhalla: buster now supports a more modular setup; outlined on the wiki
12:38:52 <Natureshadow> Schools are a very special "customer" base. Skolelinux, seen as a product, is a very good base for bringing FOSS into schools. It is technically absolute on par with commercial systems. We have a school in Wuppertal that serves as the new "Testzentrum", or demo school.
12:39:27 <Natureshadow> Many schools are interested, but get overridden by their city or county administrations.
12:39:56 <Natureshadow> From the marketing and politics pov, that's the hardest part.
12:40:03 <h01ger> regarding the names Debian Edu and Skolelinux: we decided to keep them both, as "skole" in some languages of the world, translates/refers nicely to 'school', while edu(cation) works much better in other languages
12:40:17 <valhalla> schweer: on the wiki = https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Buster/Architecture ? (I couldn't find it at a glance)
12:40:21 <h01ger> also the official spellings for Debian Edu are either "Debian Edu" or
12:40:26 <highvoltage> in south africa I was involved in a project where we rolled out linux to over 200 schools... government wasn't so much a problem but the microsoft partners tried very hard to get in our way at every step of the process
12:40:37 <h01ger> also the official spellings for Debian Edu are either "Debian Edu" or "debian-edu" (but not the other variants like Debian-Edu)
12:41:03 <schweer> valhalla: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Buster/Installation#Modular_installation
12:41:10 <valhalla> schweer: thanks!
12:41:33 <h01ger> nowadays as Debian Edu is part of Debian i usually just call it Debian Edu and not "Debian Edu / Skolelinux" anymore, but for many years we have done that
12:41:56 * h01ger is curious for more questions you might have
12:41:57 <Natureshadow> It has also shown that Skolelinux sells better
12:42:53 <h01ger> Natureshadow: ?\
12:43:00 <h01ger> Natureshadow: in .de you mean"
12:43:01 <h01ger> ?
12:44:38 <Natureshadow> That's because it sounds more like a product, while Debian Edu sounds like something on top of Debian. Which is correct, but deciders want a standalone product, and it seems Skolelinux sounds more like that in their ears.
12:46:04 <pjain> I don't have a technical question but I really want to know about the way we are planning to expand outreach of the Debian Edu? For eg: I am interested in bringing Debian Edu to some schools in India as oppose to Windows. What would be the way forward? What about the teachers training and other practical roadblocks in using/getting-used to it?
12:46:38 <h01ger> pjain: start by subscribe to our mailing list, debian-edu@lists.debian.org; and discuss the idea there
12:47:03 <h01ger> pjain: then, are you coming to dc19? if so, we could have a discussion there?
12:47:40 <h01ger> pjain: in general, outreach in indea needs to be done by people there, while we have no currently active people there.
12:47:48 <Natureshadow> pjain, we are currently documenting our experiences and material..hope to finish in Hamburg
12:48:28 <pjain> Yes, I would be hopefully at DebConf (May the Visa gods be with me)
12:48:38 <h01ger> pjain: yay & good luck
12:48:45 <pjain> One of the main issues with education sector I see is the training of the people using it
12:48:46 <schweer> pjain: having advocats in schools would also be very important
12:49:09 <pjain> People usually tend to move towards the software which are easy to learn or to get support for
12:49:17 <pjain> And they don't mind paying few bucks for that
12:49:18 <h01ger> pjain: what schweer said. best look for alleys in schools
12:49:35 <pjain> Thanks for the inputs, schweer Natureshadow h01ger
12:49:59 <h01ger> pjain: one of the selling points of debian (edu) is that it can be translated to local languages by the community, without relying on some company wanting to support this.
12:50:35 <pjain> I agree but computer education is mostly given in English (at least in my local community)
12:50:52 <h01ger> ic
12:52:21 <pjain> I see that these days many books have started teaching basic computer via Ubuntu rather than Windows here in India. Maybe can create similar kind of guides for Debian Edu too.
12:52:37 <pjain> Sorry for steering the discussion away from technical stuffs
12:53:05 <h01ger> thats fine
12:53:32 <h01ger> in the beginning of edubuntu some ubuntu folks wanted to collaborate with us, but sadly that never went far..
12:53:45 <pabs> is there a list of individuals/companies who provide Debian Edu deployment services?
12:54:01 <highvoltage> edubuntu had a rollercoaster of a history, I was involved for a long time
12:54:49 <h01ger> pabs: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Help/ProfessionalHelp linked from https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Buster/Support
12:55:45 <pabs> thanks, I think I will add a backlink from the Debian consultants page
12:56:16 <h01ger> :) thanks for that as well
12:56:26 <h01ger> so, we are coming to an end of this session
12:56:55 <h01ger> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Status/Buster is an URL worth mentioning here too
12:57:05 <h01ger> we hang out on #debian-edu on irc.debian.org
12:57:12 <h01ger> and debian-edu@lists.debian.org too
12:57:13 <highvoltage> h01ger: I still get lots of questions from ubuntu users wanting to migrate, they want an easier installer than d-i
12:57:26 <h01ger> feel free to come around and ask further questions there
12:57:31 <h01ger> highvoltage: we use d-i...
12:57:37 <highvoltage> yeah I know :)
12:57:42 <h01ger> not having done tests with calamaris
12:57:48 <h01ger> should be trivial to support
12:58:03 <h01ger> it just needs a modified d-i kernel command line..
12:58:04 <highvoltage> I'll follow up with you on that one later then
12:58:07 <h01ger> coolio
12:58:32 * h01ger thanks everybody for attending and the input/questions you had
12:58:46 <pjain> Thanks h01ger
12:58:49 * h01ger hopes highvoltage will be successful in establishing this channel and series
12:58:54 * h01ger waves
12:59:40 <utkarsh2102[m]> Is there a session about Debian Edu in DC?
12:59:53 <utkarsh2102[m]> Like a BoF or something similar?
12:59:57 <h01ger> not yet
13:00:06 <h01ger> i'll attend if you submit one
13:00:12 * h01ger has to leave now, sorry
13:00:17 <h01ger> #endmeeting