19:01:23 <MadameZou> #startmeeting
19:01:23 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Jun 22 19:01:23 2011 UTC.  The chair is MadameZou. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:01:23 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:01:35 <MadameZou> #topic Ask the DPL
19:01:39 <raido> #info
19:02:13 <MadameZou> welcome everyone, just a few words before the start of the session
19:02:55 <MadameZou> this will be a questions & answers session, so you'll be able to ask zack what you want -ehm debian related, obviously
19:03:36 <MadameZou> for practical reasons, you need to post your question on #dw-question and I'll paste to here to zack
19:03:54 <zack> in the meantime, MadameZou: thanks for hosting and organizing this session!
19:03:56 <MadameZou> so, we can define a queue and an order :)
19:03:58 <gnugr> good evening zack
19:04:04 <zack> hi everybody
19:04:13 <MadameZou> ok, let's start
19:05:01 <MadameZou> ehm, btw, zack will be here for ~1 hour so don't be shy
19:05:35 <zack> indeed, just fire a question on #dw-question, I swear I won't bite (or at least I'll try not to)
19:06:00 <MadameZou> < eliad> Is Debian going to become something more than "just a GNU/* distribution" (if it is not already)? Defining certain standards/guidelines, for  example. At the time Debian was established it was a revolution. but is Debian like that now? e.g. Debian could define some guidelines for               development of new applications, preferred langs,.... This could potentially make bugs easier to find and repair. The number
19:06:19 <MadameZou> (done!)
19:06:22 <zack> thanks for the question eliad
19:06:31 <zack> I think Debian aims at remaining a *distribution* in the proper sense of the word
19:06:36 <eliad> :)
19:06:55 <zack> that is, at remaining an intermediary between upstream authors and final users
19:07:01 <zack> trying to integrate everything properly together
19:07:05 <zack> but without changing too much, as long as it's possible
19:07:20 <zack> in that sense, I don't think it's up to something like Debian to establish standards to develop apps or the like
19:07:51 <zack> but of course, the day a group of upstreams will do that, we (as in Debian) will do our best to support it properly in our distro (and in all our derivatives, fwiw)
19:07:56 <zack> next!
19:08:05 <MadameZou> < Black_Prince> I heard something about Debian Rolling. Are those only rumors or that could happen?
19:08:28 <zack> gotcha, I saw that coming Black_Prince ;)
19:08:37 <zack> surely, it *could* happen
19:08:50 <zack> but as everything in Debian, it won't happen automagically, someone needs to work on it
19:09:01 <zack> there are some people which have made already a lot of work on that
19:09:14 <zack> first discussing the idea in a lot of depth (see the monster thread on -devel)
19:09:35 <zack> that discussion, imho, has been very useful, and has highlight the risks we should be aware of in doing something like "rolling"
19:09:52 <zack> then, other great people have proposed a way to go forward technically and are working on it to implement
19:10:16 <zack> so, I think it could happen, but --- as an old mantra in Debian --- it will happen faster if people will step in to help
19:10:23 <zack> next!
19:10:26 <MadameZou> < raido>How would the DPL define the health of the dev community currently?
19:10:40 <MadameZou> (this is really interesting IMO)
19:10:47 <zack> uhm, very interesting
19:11:02 <zack> I confess I don't have a good "metric" to propose, if that is what you are asking
19:11:18 <zack> but some indicators are for sure the turnover of developers
19:11:29 <zack> i.e. the amount of new developers joining and of old developers leaving
19:11:54 * zobel leaves
19:11:55 <zack> (the latter might not be relevant in "young" projects, but it's something which is quite normal in a project like Debian, with its 18 years of history)
19:11:58 <zack> so, if I'll have to judge from that
19:12:08 <zack> zobel: :)
19:12:20 <zack> I'd say that we are doing pretty good, the amount of new devs is quite steady
19:12:34 <zack> (sorry, I don't have the numbers at hand)
19:12:47 <zack> it's also interesting that quite a bit of the new devs are coming from derivatives
19:12:50 <zack> next!
19:13:01 <MadameZou> < __Alex_> When do you thing Debian Hurd will have Linux 2.6 drivers?
19:13:12 <MadameZou> isn't too DPL-related but.. :)
19:13:25 <zack> ah, urgh, I confess I'm not much of an expert when it comes to hurd
19:13:30 <zobel> zack: accounts created since 2011-01-01: 13
19:13:39 <zack> I love the fact that Debian has a hurd port being worked on
19:13:53 <zack> (and I've been told is sort of the best way to actually use gnu/hurd)
19:14:06 <zack> but I fear I can't help with technical questions about that
19:14:08 <MadameZou> __Alex_: maybe we will have a "One day with Hurd team" session and you could ask them directly ;)
19:14:17 <zack> I'm sure people on debian-hurd can help with that, though!
19:14:23 <zack> MadameZou: you're sneaky!
19:14:24 <zack> next!
19:14:33 <MadameZou> < liw> zack, do you think Debian's discussion culture has become more healthy in recent years? Have you noticed that trend reversing again? What could or should we do about it?
19:14:48 <zack> zobel: thanks for the stats! (do you maybe have also DM numbers at hand?)
19:15:06 <zack> liw: once more, it's hard to have metrics for stuff like that
19:15:14 <zobel> zack: give me a second. maybe i can extract them from d-project ML
19:15:27 <zack> otoh, my gut feeling is that debian's discussion culture has got a lot better over the past years
19:15:53 <zack> unfortunately, my memory is tainted by big flames of several years ago, so I'm not sure I can appreciate evolution in smaller time periods
19:16:06 <zack> what could we do about it? take part in discussion with a positive attitude
19:16:28 <zobel> zack: mh, not that easy. maybe Ganneff can give some numbers, from stuff he does on ftp-master
19:17:00 <zack> sometimes, I've the impression that people that can improve the quality of a discussion simply don't take part into it
19:17:11 <zack> leaving the ground to people who want to flame (which in turn risks giving the impression that everyone in debian just likes flaming)
19:17:14 <zack> next!
19:17:23 <Ganneff> ?
19:17:34 <zobel> Ganneff: new DMs since 2011-01-01
19:17:44 * enrico takes note of implementing Front Desk stats while hacking at Debconf
19:17:49 <zack> enrico: :)
19:18:00 <Ganneff> uh god, goto DAM
19:18:16 <MadameZou> < devil> my question to zack is: what is the current state of debian-rolling and is there an agenda what needs to be done in the near future to make it become reality?
19:18:55 <MadameZou> smells like new contributors ;)
19:19:03 <zack> devil: my impression is that we need essentially two things: a team and some infrastructure
19:19:21 <zack> the infrastructure should be something like the existing software to migrate package from unstable to testing (aka "britney")
19:19:34 <zack> it could be another instance of that very same software or it could be something completely new
19:19:47 <zack> (people has started working on both possibilities, afaik)
19:20:03 <zack> the team is, well, a team of people with competencies similar to those of the existing release team
19:20:24 <zack> now, were to propose you're willing to help in that respect it's a related question
19:20:30 * zack starts asking question to himself (bad sign)
19:20:41 <devil> :)
19:20:58 <zack> there is the "cut-team" discussion list on alioth for that, but most recent rolling discussions have actually happened on -devel directly
19:21:11 <zack> next!
19:21:14 <MadameZou> < liw> QUESTION: zack, have you considered training people who might want to run for DPL next year? what kinds of skills or talents would be most useful for a DPL?
19:21:55 <zack> liw: yes, absolutely, I've thought about that and it's a great idea! (not by me, it's been advanced during this year dpl campaigning, iirc)
19:22:11 <zack> as step 0, I've asked for volunteers to do some dpl-ish tasks in recent "bits from dpl" mails
19:22:28 <zack> if there are volunteers for that, I'll be glad to "outsource" some tasks to give an idea of what a dpl routinely do
19:22:47 <zack> as step 1, I've submitted a "dpl wannabe" event at the forthcoming debconf11 conference
19:23:02 <zack> ideally, at that event both past DPLs and wannabe DPLs should take part, and share experiences
19:23:32 <zack> as an ideal step, I'd also like to write some "tips & tricks" as stable documentation
19:23:45 <zack> but I've never found the time to actually do that
19:24:02 <zack> about skills, dunno, I believe anyone should propose her own way of doing the job
19:24:16 <zack> but for sure, communication and "people" skills never hurt
19:24:18 <zack> next!
19:24:21 <MadameZou> < Black_Prince> Another question: What do you think Debian Rolling could do to Debian's popularity? Do you think people would more use it when they get newer software more often in Debian?
19:24:26 <zack> TAKE_MY_DEMON: I will take it!
19:24:48 <TAKE_MY_DEMON> ****************
19:24:50 <TAKE_MY_DEMON> ***************
19:24:54 <MadameZou> uff.
19:24:57 <Black_Prince> *cough*
19:25:01 <zack> Black_Prince: so, I'm sure we have several different views on that
19:25:20 <zack> my own take is that something like "rolling" can be very interesting for two potential kind of users:
19:25:27 <TAKE_MY_DEMON> /TAKEMYDEMON///////
19:25:48 <zack> 1) "advanced" desktop users, which want recent software and have skills to cope with upgrade annoyances (in the _upstream_ software, not related to packaging)
19:26:13 <zack> 2) developers, who need up to date libraries, but still can't risk using unstable and having their development environment
19:26:19 <zack> destroyed by an RC buggy upgrade
19:26:34 <vrkalak> my experiences with 'rolling' have still been fairly 'stable' ... a specific version of CUT would be even better
19:26:49 <Ganneff> MadameZou: just stay +@ during a session, then you can handle the trolls faster :)
19:26:56 <zack> I don't think that those kinds of users are against using "stable"
19:26:58 <zack> they are just different targets
19:27:01 <zack> next!
19:27:04 <MadameZou> < valhalla> question: what are the areas of debian that you think are more in need of some "love"? (more people, more work, etc.)
19:27:15 <Black_Prince> zack, thank you.
19:27:18 <MadameZou> Ganneff: ok
19:27:21 <zack> valhalla: oh, ouch
19:27:32 <zack> if I'll name only one, everyone else will jump at me :-)
19:27:40 <Ganneff> ftpteam can always take people, especially coding ones!
19:27:47 <zack> in short, many teams are in need of more peoplepower
19:27:56 <zack> you probably won't find any single team which is *not* in need of more people
19:28:08 <zack> so, one way to spot the one which are most in need of "love"
19:28:17 <zack> just go and find "single point of failures"
19:28:22 <zack> it's not nice being in that position
19:28:29 <zack> not for the team/person, not for the project
19:28:36 <zack> when you find one, step in and volunteer to help
19:28:53 <zack> in general, even the most delicate tasks, could use at least some kind of help
19:28:58 <zack> next!
19:29:02 <MadameZou> < algernon> question: Going a bit back at the developer flow: do you perhaps have a vague idea how many old developers come back after spending some time off Debian?
19:29:19 <CcSsNET> ah hah a meeting channel does exist
19:29:44 <zack> algernon: ah, if you want a number, I'm sorry but I don't have it either (although maybe zobel-little-helper will kick in)
19:29:55 <zack> but I've in my memory various people who has recently returned
19:30:14 <zack> (or maybe DAM, actually)
19:30:20 <enrico> gut feeling, one every 6 months or so, I'd say
19:30:20 <Ganneff> hard to say a definite number
19:30:21 <zobel> some 3-5 per year
19:30:22 <zack> it's something I didn't remember in the past
19:30:23 <algernon> zack: something between "a few" and "more than my fingers" is about what I'm looking for :)
19:30:29 <Ganneff> nut all properly quit / come back, some just go mia for a time
19:30:50 <zack> if you look back a few years, i'd bet on ~ 10 then
19:31:07 <zack> algernon: it's good, imho, and once more it's something that I don't feel any other project out there has faced (yet)
19:31:20 <zack> next!
19:31:23 <MadameZou> < RoboTux> question: Stats about emails the DPL receive (how many? what are the main topic?)
19:31:46 <zobel> just, one should resign properly (as described in the dev-ref)
19:31:58 <zack> oh, I've the numbers for that, I've computer them a while ago for an interview :)
19:32:01 <zack> just a sec
19:32:15 <zack> stats taken in february 2011, from the beginning of my (first) term up to then
19:32:35 <zack> average of 15 mails/day (9 received/day, 6 sent/day)
19:32:51 <zack> the topics vary quite a bit
19:33:16 <zack> from "urgencies" of some kind, to conflict solving, ... to crazy people asking nonsense :)
19:33:29 <CcSsNET> lol
19:33:33 <zack> the most, err, "interesting" I've ever got it's just after the start of my first term
19:33:52 <zack> someone proposed that debian should drop the linux kernel and ship only a mach kernel
19:33:59 <zack> note the *drop*, not just *add* a new port
19:34:03 <zack> next!
19:34:06 <MadameZou> < Black_Prince> What is average age of Debian Developers/Maintainers? Are there any Debian Developers or Maintainers that are 18 or younger?
19:34:07 <RoboTux> thanks
19:34:40 <zack> Black_Prince: eh, I'm interested into that myself, but I don't think we have all the data to compute it (specifying your age is optional, iirc)
19:34:43 <CcSsNET> lol zack
19:35:02 <Ganneff> we dont have much data on that - and we have VERY few very young people
19:35:07 <zack> my feeling is that we have an average age around 35, but with an important variance
19:35:10 <zobel> could be produced from the age in ldap.
19:35:22 <zack> we've had cases of very young DDs, but not that many
19:35:28 <zack> zobel: is it a mandatory field?
19:35:36 <zobel> no
19:35:43 <Ganneff> at some point you run into legal question like "can they actually do that on their own or need parents", and so we dont have less than, i think, 15 ever
19:36:02 <Tolimar> zack: Four years ago I did a talk about Debian at my university.  Back then we had one DD who said he was 16 if I remeber correctly.
19:36:06 <zack> zobel: it'd be interesting to know how many DDs have actually input that field, if that's easy for you to find out
19:36:12 <Tolimar> Haven't checked since then.
19:36:19 <zack> Tolimar: ah, thanks
19:36:20 <zack> next!
19:36:23 <MadameZou> < lindi-_> QUESTION: speaking of stable, what version of gwibber are you using with identi.ca currently? Afaik squeeze's version does not support twitter (since it lacks some OAUTH thingy)
19:36:34 <CcSsNET> speaking of suggestions though, there should be defaultly, no exim running, portmap, or consolekit or policykit, nor pam or ldap support these should be optional
19:36:59 <zack> lindi-_: my laptop runs a "pure" unstable, so I'm using the gwibber which is there
19:37:13 <MadameZou> ehm, CcSsNET if you have questions, pls post them on #dw-question and I'll paste it on the chan
19:37:18 <zack> I'm aware of the problem you mention
19:37:24 <CcSsNET> wasnt a question
19:37:33 <CcSsNET> its a suggestion for serious changes
19:37:58 <daemonkeeper> And our beloved DPL should change that personally?
19:37:58 <zack> it's something that _might_ deserve a stable proposed upload, but only if it's a self contained change (which I doubt so)
19:38:01 <zobel> zack: 599 have a birthDate set
19:38:10 <zack> (and of course the final decision is of SRM)
19:38:11 <CcSsNET> also xorg could have its drivers as optional dependencies instead it installs them all
19:38:12 <zack> next!
19:38:17 <MadameZou> < nadir> question: i don't fully understand the relation between the freedombox and debian. to me it looks like it was a pure Debian project, right? If so: Can one be confident about its future?
19:38:17 <Ganneff> CcSsNET: you are wrong here
19:38:21 <CcSsNET> particularly video.
19:38:54 <zack> nadir: so, some technical activities around the freedombox started by a group of debian folks at debconf10, after a talk by eben moglen there
19:39:06 <zack> that's why the hosting of sw, discussion list, etc it's on alioth
19:39:13 <CcSsNET> meh second suggestion is only minor anoyance, first suggestion is bloaty process wise
19:39:22 <zack> then, the freedomboxfoundation has born to support the freedombox "idea"
19:39:33 <zack> and that is a separate entity from debian
19:39:42 <zack> nevertheless, we're in very amicable terms with them
19:39:56 <zack> and they respected, in good foss tradition, the already existing hosting infrastructure
19:40:08 <zack> no matter what, the ties among debian and the freedombox project are important
19:40:41 <zack> so, I can't tell if you should be confident about its future
19:41:05 <nadir> ok, thanks
19:41:08 <zack> but for sure the initial debian activites on the project has been very much respected by the fundation
19:41:11 <zack> next!
19:41:18 <MadameZou> < raido> It is no secret that Debian derrivitaves enjoy a popularity from time to time (recent history especially) thath eclipses Debian. Do you find a level of discouragement from the community/devs that requires some encouragement or do these things work themselves out? Is it something you actively deal with?
19:42:08 <zack> raido: at a social level, sure, we've felt that in the past in the debian community
19:42:14 <xbayrockx> heyyy
19:42:16 <zack> it's just human, and applies a lot to volunteering communities
19:42:26 <xbayrockx> when is the next training session :)
19:42:37 <zack> still, I've the impression that we're now realizing that we should be actually _proud_ of that
19:42:38 <Ganneff> xbayrockx: ssshhht, its on
19:42:49 <zack> a lot of distros out there exist thanks to us
19:43:10 <raido> indeed
19:43:10 <zack> still, we need to make clear what we want from others if they want to "play well" with us
19:43:13 <zack> and with foss in general
19:43:24 <zack> (giving credits + giving back, essentially)
19:43:36 <zack> which is very much like what debian has promised to do with our upstreams in the social contract
19:43:39 <zack> next!
19:43:42 <MadameZou> < Eulenspiegel69> question to zack: Linux is known to be significantly fragmented; software written for one distribution often needs some modification in order to run on another. What can we as a Community do to ally with developers of other notable distributions in order to create common interfaces, etc.?
19:44:15 <zack> Eulenspiegel69: I fear we're back at the "platform" problem (see first question)
19:44:24 <zack> I think that if a distribution, like Debian, starts doing that
19:44:39 <zack> then it will appear as something that want to be "different" than the sum of its parts
19:44:50 <zack> that level of standardization, imho, should happen upstream
19:45:04 <zack> upstream authors need to spot the need of standardization
19:45:07 <zack> and establish the needed bodies
19:45:13 <zack> e.g. freedesktop
19:45:30 <gnugr> #dw-question We Greek debian community have a problem with some school packages from our Education administration wich they need a software or package named "prism"  to run. They run on ubuntu as well, but we need it as Debian users too.
19:45:34 <zack> I don't think a distro is a place for doing that, no matter it's market share
19:45:37 <zack> next!
19:45:44 <zack> (brrr, typo feast...)
19:45:59 <MadameZou> < eof> question: zack, how do you get enough time to read and respond to all letters sent to dpl@d.o, participate in discussions on the mailing list, to speak at various conferences with talks, ... and sure to do other things in your life (outside the Debian Project)? ;-)
19:46:19 <MadameZou> ( gnugr don't worry, I'll post also yours)
19:46:26 <zack> eof: actually, you know I don't do *that* well, given I've an answer in the pipe to you since more than week :-P
19:47:11 <zack> seriously, I've no idea, but I'm sure I'm not the most occupied person in the world, there are people with way much more than me who still manage ;)
19:47:14 <zack> next!
19:47:17 <MadameZou> < zobel> question: how much money has been spent for real life meetings in the last year (roughly)
19:48:01 <zack> zobel: roughly, we've spent on average 1000 EUR / sprint
19:48:10 <zack> and we've had about 10 sprints
19:48:28 <zack> (an easy way to actually have precise numbers, it's something the auditors are working on)
19:48:33 <zack> next!
19:48:35 <MadameZou> < gnugr>We Greek debian community have a problem with some school packages from our Education administration wich they need a software or package named "prism"  to run. They run on ubuntu as well, but we need it as Debian users too.
19:48:54 <daemonkeeper> gnugr: We were discussing this with you in #d-mentors some time ago. Note Ubuntu does not include your package either and may come from a third party repo you(r school) might be using.
19:49:05 <zack> daemonkeeper: thanks a lot :)
19:49:14 <daemonkeeper> welcome :)
19:49:23 <zack> so, if it's a 3rd party repo, chances are it'll work on both distros
19:49:30 <zack> (or at least that it can be made to work on both distros)
19:49:43 <zack> still, if you need it to work with debian, you should contact the maintainer of the repo
19:49:54 <zack> and ask them to support debian explicitly
19:49:57 <zack> next!
19:50:10 <zack> (guess he wasn't interested in the question that much, after all)
19:51:28 <zack> we've lost MadameZou :)
19:51:33 <MadameZou> < babilen> question: If we look at software development and Debian's relations to upstreams like, say, the Ruby community it seems  that a lot of developers do *not* use Debian packages, but rather third party packaging tools such as gem, pip (Python), leiningen (Clojure) etc. What direction do you think Debian/packaging needs to take to cater to the needs of developers?
19:51:40 <MadameZou> zack: nope, I'm here ;)
19:52:03 <zack> babilen: very interesting (and tricky) question
19:52:10 <zack> so
19:52:23 <zack> I'm no ruby packager myself, but in several languages there is a problem
19:52:36 <zack> namely, the habit of embedding (specific versions of) libraries
19:52:43 <zack> instead of using them as external dependencies
19:52:48 <zack> that's very typical among java developers for instance
19:53:11 <zack> but I've the impression that gems/eggs/etc. are all abstractions that make that easy
19:53:18 <babilen> indeed
19:53:21 <zack> in Debian, we've a policy of de-duplication of code
19:53:30 <zack> because it's the only sane way to deliver, for instance, security upgrades
19:53:53 <zack> no one can guarantee security support for $x * 10'000 packages if code embedding is the rule
19:54:08 <zack> that considered, I'm not surprised we have grudges with communities where that practice is commonplace
19:54:15 <zack> I think we're technical right on that
19:54:22 <zack> and we should insist in convincing upstreams of our reasons
19:54:25 <zack> next!
19:54:26 <MadameZou> < liw> QUESTION: zack, what's your foremost suggestion for making Debian development more fun for everyone?
19:54:37 <zack> liw: be *bold* !
19:54:46 <zack> spot something that needs improvement
19:54:49 <liw> not _italic_?
19:54:54 <zack> take responsibility for improving that
19:54:56 <zack> and do that
19:55:23 <Eulenspiegel69> any question that makes a bit more sense?
19:55:26 <zack> seeing a lot of people doing that will induce a lot of excitement everywhere in the project, I believe
19:55:36 <zack> Eulenspiegel69: that question made a lot of sense, actually
19:55:43 <zack> next!
19:55:48 <MadameZou> should be a DPL term longer than one year ?
19:56:01 <zack> hey, the host is cheating!
19:56:11 <zack> MadameZou: I think it should, yes
19:56:18 <Ganneff> <@MadameZou> should be a DPL term longer than one year ?
19:56:21 <Ganneff> there, uncheated :)
19:56:30 <Eulenspiegel69> for example 4 years, like the American president :)
19:56:32 <MadameZou> ehhe, but it's not mine!
19:56:33 <zack> 2 years is probably a good length, but it should be balanced with guarantees for the community that they can easily recall the DPL if goes MIA or the like
19:56:34 <MadameZou> :P
19:56:39 <zobel> zack: so we should have a GR on that?
19:56:55 <zack> we've had a nice discussion about that in the last campaign period, IIRC
19:57:07 <jhr> yes, let's make zack retroacively been voted for four years :)
19:57:10 <zack> zobel: that would be the only way, given the term length is written in stone^Wconstitution
19:57:11 <zobel> zack: so we should make a GR of that
19:57:22 <zack> next!
19:57:27 <MadameZou> what is the next myth you will destroy? (after "NMUs trigger aggressive responses" and "-devel is a constant flamefest")
19:57:38 <MadameZou> quite provocative, but interesting ;)
19:57:46 <zack> ah ah
19:58:01 <zack> fwiw, I don't think I've destroyed neither of them
19:58:03 <vorlon> -devel triggers aggressive NMUs
19:58:20 <zack> I've worked a bit on the former, and just _said_ the second (although I hope it's true)
19:58:37 <zack> a good target would be: "there is (no) cabal"
19:58:38 <zack> next!
19:58:41 <MadameZou> what about "local" debian groups? I know it was part of your platform: which is the state of the art on it?
19:58:48 <MadameZou> (this is mine)
19:59:03 <zobel> ah, MadameZou works on the titanpad, backwards :P
19:59:04 <zack> it's something I believe it's very important and we've in fact all of the ingredients for it
19:59:14 <zack> we just need to streamline a bit the procedure and advertise the possibility
19:59:28 <zack> a little helper has stepped in to help me out on that (hello eof)
19:59:43 <zack> and we've basically concluded a review of the state of the art of what other projects are doing
20:00:00 <zack> if all goes well, you might expect some news about that in a month or so
20:00:01 <zack> next!
20:00:07 <MadameZou> < Laney> QUESTION: There's a movement amongst a small number of (web browser) upstreams towards rapid release cycles with corresponding reduced security support for older releases. Do you think this can be made to fit in with Debian's release model? Do we have any options other than swallowing it?
20:00:26 <zack> Laney: I'm quite scared by that, yes
20:00:33 <Ganneff> drop the browsers
20:00:49 <zack> in particular, I'm scared by the fact they seem to ignore that also on desktops, there are users who need a long time frame of (security) support
20:01:08 <zack> I know of several realities where they have desktop that they want to be fully functional and minimally changers for 5+ years
20:01:22 <zack> clearly, fast browser releases do not fit well with debian stable processes
20:01:29 <Ganneff> we only recently switched the last woody desktop away, fwiw
20:01:32 <zack> they might fit well with rolling, but that's not an answer
20:02:05 <zack> I think we should do some pressure to support, side by side with fast release, some sort of long term support (upstream) releases
20:02:12 <zack> and aim at including them in our stable releases
20:02:16 <zack> next! (a couple f
20:02:21 <MadameZou> I have only one question for you zack and it is mine
20:02:24 <MadameZou> don't you miss the hacking work on debian?
20:02:38 <zack> MadameZou: totally :), but it's been fun to change as well
20:02:53 <zack> next!
20:02:57 <zobel> MadameZou: your question implies he does no coding any more :)
20:03:05 <MadameZou> do you want to run for a third term?
20:03:14 <MadameZou> (the very last)
20:03:23 <zack> ah ah, that's too early, i really have no idea
20:03:34 <MadameZou> LOL :)
20:03:35 <zack> (I know you won't believe me, but that's just too bad :-P)
20:03:45 <zobel> MadameZou: we can work on that. make his current period longer by GR
20:03:49 <zack> if I may, I've one concluding comment
20:04:06 <zack> we badly need irc meetings, both like this one and within teams
20:04:21 <vrkalak> agreed
20:04:27 <babilen> +1
20:04:31 <zack> this kind of meetings, especially if they are periodic, are a way to drop communication barriers as well as a way to be more transparent about what happens in the project
20:04:36 <ruipb> +2
20:04:39 <Black_Prince> +3
20:04:44 <zack> so, please everybody, peruse this channel, peruse it's wiki page
20:04:47 <Eulenspiegel69> +4
20:04:51 <raschipi> so, we will have one with the hurd team?
20:04:53 <zack> and go propose to your team to have periodic meetings
20:04:58 <zack> either there or on the team channel
20:04:59 <eof> ack (thanks MadameZou for reborning)
20:05:02 <MadameZou> raschipi: I'll ask them :)
20:05:05 <zack> </eot>
20:05:06 <Ganneff> now what do teams do that have a constant irc presence anyways?
20:05:08 <zack> thanks everybody
20:05:09 <savar> thx
20:05:12 * zobel volunteers for a "Ask the DSA team" during DC11 (or even camp)
20:05:14 <lindi-_> raschipi: are you also interested in kfreebsd?
20:05:24 <zack> and a big thank to MadameZou for hosting and organization!
20:05:27 <MadameZou> zack: thank you very much for this session
20:05:28 <babilen> zack: Thank you very much for your time and interesting, concise and relevant answers.
20:05:29 <ruipb> thank you zack
20:05:30 <vrkalak> thanks for sharing, zack
20:05:38 <nadir> thanks
20:05:39 * enrico applauds
20:05:40 <eof> zack, thank you for the answers and also for the "non-uploading DDs", monthly "bits from DPL", DEX Project and other greate work which you do for the Debian Project and Community! \o/
20:05:45 <Black_Prince> zack, thank you very much for your time and answers
20:05:46 <raschipi> i think i like the hurd for historical reasons
20:05:46 <MadameZou> zobel: yes, you can't hide! :P
20:05:49 <Black_Prince> \o/
20:05:54 <ruipb> thanks MadameZou
20:06:01 <Dorn> thx everyone
20:06:08 <Black_Prince> MadameZou, also thank you for organising this session. It was really nice
20:06:11 <eof> and sure to MadameZou :*
20:06:14 <Black_Prince> \o/
20:06:23 <lindi-_> raschipi: ok
20:06:28 <MadameZou> remember: next session with gregoa "One day with the Perl Team"
20:06:30 <MadameZou> :D
20:06:33 <zack> zobel: out of curiosity, if someone becomes DD -> retire -> return, is ldap able to keep the history of all changes?
20:06:33 <MadameZou> \o/
20:06:58 <zack> gregoa: why one day? should rather be "your whole life from now on" :)
20:07:15 <MadameZou> LOL
20:07:18 <ruipb> lol
20:07:45 <gregoa> zack: on IRC it's just an example of one day; hopefully for some attendants it will be the whole rest of their lives :)
20:07:50 <zobel> zack: not sure, but i don't think so
20:07:59 <zobel> zack: that looks more like a DAM task
20:08:01 <enrico> zack: FD has part of the information, since we handle the comebacks, but it's not really organised
20:08:17 <Ganneff> worst case it would need a grep through all the ldap dumps dsa has.
20:08:54 <MadameZou> #endmeeting