21:09:15 <Rhonda> #startmeeting
21:09:15 <MeetBot> Meeting started Fri Mar 18 21:09:15 2011 UTC.  The chair is Rhonda. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:09:15 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
21:09:17 <Rhonda> #chair pabs
21:09:17 <MeetBot> Current chairs: Rhonda pabs
21:09:26 <Rhonda> pabs: There you go :P
21:09:30 * hansg thinks it may make sense to merge agenda items 5 & 7
21:09:33 <hansg> ready
21:09:34 <pabs> thx Rhonda
21:10:01 <pabs> hansg: agreed
21:10:20 <pabs> so, first topic
21:10:28 <pabs> #topic reviving the games team
21:11:04 <pabs> does everyone agree that we have been less active during the past couple of years?
21:11:11 <thekittster> yes
21:11:12 <ansgar> Yes.
21:11:12 <Fuddl> yes
21:11:18 <pabs> and that we need to do something about that?
21:11:25 * Zhenech isnt that long in the team, but yes
21:11:30 <lincoln> yes
21:11:36 <Zhenech> pabs, you have been doing it: pings were great
21:11:37 <Zhenech> :)
21:11:38 <Fuddl> yes again
21:11:39 <Rhonda> I guess that we have this very meeting is a good indicator that we want to change this.
21:11:52 <Zhenech> and ofcourse, as rhonda said
21:12:04 <pabs> #agreed the games team has been pretty inactive and we need to change that
21:12:15 <Zhenech> mhh, /me should /load script proper-english.pl
21:12:36 <pabs> ok, so, these meetings are probably a good start towards this
21:12:44 <Rhonda> I suggest that we try to schedule a "next meeting" and through that can get people more on tracks and involved again so they have something to attend.
21:12:52 <Kamping_Kaiser> +1 gold star for pabs getting things moving again
21:12:54 <pabs> how often do we think we want them?
21:13:09 <Rhonda> Once a month, or maybe bi-monthly.
21:13:28 <Zhenech> +1 on bi-monthly
21:13:39 <Kamping_Kaiser> i'd suggest once a month, see if we have anything to talk about then drop to bi monthly if there isn't enough going on
21:13:56 <Rhonda> Maybe start off with once a month and see if … what Kamping_Kaiser said. :)
21:13:59 * pabs likes Kamping_Kaiser's suggestion
21:14:00 <Fuddl> i agree to Kamping_Kaiser
21:14:08 <Zhenech> ok, me too :)
21:14:11 <pabs> any objections to Kamping_Kaiser's idea?
21:14:12 * ThibG agrees with Kamping_Kaiser
21:14:16 <ansgar> Yes, one a month is good.
21:14:17 * lincoln too
21:14:20 <Fuddl> no objections
21:14:33 <Rhonda> #agreed We'll try to start with monthly meetings and see how it turns out
21:14:44 * angasulino agrees too late :)
21:15:17 <pabs> ok, any volunteers for doing organising for the next meeting? setting date and agenda, announcing it etc
21:15:17 <Fuddl> how about a fixed day and time for meetings?
21:15:44 <pabs> I was hoping it wouldn't be at 5am again :)
21:15:57 <Zhenech> pabs, it will if we can vote :)
21:16:00 <Rhonda> Fuddl: Fixing that would be tough-ruling against certain people
21:16:04 <Kamping_Kaiser> Fuddl: day we can agreee on, time you'll get us upside downers complaining
21:16:22 <pabs> maybe we can rotate through the timezones
21:16:46 <Rhonda> … like requesting pabs to get up early every time. I don't like that. Debian is meant as an international project, and we should try to accompany for that.
21:16:48 <Fuddl> hm ok. if we sit in too different time zones it becomes quite unfair ;)
21:17:42 <Fuddl> but i think it could have been an option, if it would be acceptable for everybody to have a fixed time
21:17:45 <Zhenech> pabs, lets try to get more saner dates for your side the next vote, and less for "us"
21:18:04 <Zhenech> like your whole day to choose *g*
21:18:09 <pabs> that would definitely be nice :)
21:18:12 <thekittster> which timezones are represented?
21:18:24 <pabs> GMT+8
21:18:27 <Rhonda> Same btw. for fixed weekday. Different people have different regular private activities.
21:18:35 <Fuddl> GMT+1
21:18:37 <Zhenech> < CET / GMT+1
21:18:40 <Kamping_Kaiser> +9.5
21:18:43 <thekittster> GMT+1 for me too
21:18:45 <pdewacht> GMT+1
21:18:46 <stevecotton> GMT +1
21:18:48 <angasulino> GMT-3
21:18:49 <lincoln> GMT+3
21:18:50 <mase> gmt+1
21:18:51 <ThibG> CET / GMT+1
21:18:59 <Rhonda> GMT+1
21:19:10 <Kamping_Kaiser> wow... do you all live in the same house or something?
21:19:12 <tnnn> GMT+1
21:19:13 <angasulino> I'm the only one in the American continent?
21:19:15 <lexiyntax> GMT-4
21:19:26 <ansgar> GMT+1 as well.
21:19:27 <Rhonda> Kamping_Kaiser: europe is big enough :)
21:19:34 <lincoln> angasulino, nops, I indeed need to watch my typing, I'm in GMT-3 :D
21:19:35 <Kamping_Kaiser> Rhonda: suppose so :)
21:19:39 <hansg> GMT + 1 also
21:19:43 <pabs> ok, everyone move to Europe for the next meeting ;)
21:19:46 <angasulino> lincoln: heh
21:19:47 <stevecotton> does this say which timezone most wants the meeting, or just which one gets best representation at this time of day?
21:19:56 <Zhenech> ok
21:20:04 <Zhenech> next_meeting+1 @ DebConf11
21:20:06 <thekittster> stevecotton: excellent remark
21:20:07 <Zhenech> erm
21:20:09 <Kamping_Kaiser> peaking of moving, after april i'll be gmt+10, just to make it even further apart
21:20:14 <Zhenech> next_meeting+n …
21:20:15 <Rhonda> pabs: We can schedule a (SOME!) meeting(s) at debconf, which is in europe. :)
21:20:20 <angasulino> I think noon/early afternoon for Europe is best for all?
21:20:21 <Rhonda> Zhenech: ^5
21:20:25 <pabs> :)
21:20:42 <SynrG> UTC-0300
21:20:55 <ThibG> angasulino, depends on the day
21:21:00 <Rhonda> #agreed Meeting times should get rotated to make it easy for people from different timezones to attend at least sometimes.
21:21:01 <angasulino> and on Saturday/Sunday, please? Weekdays are impossible
21:21:07 <Rhonda> Next topic?
21:21:10 <pabs> in any case we need a meeting champion! someone to make it happen, set invite all the right folks
21:21:25 <Zhenech> pabs, /me will do if thats ok
21:21:33 <SynrG> lincoln: hm. same tz :) (at least this half of the year)
21:21:34 <pabs> great :)
21:21:37 <Zhenech> and no, there is no european cabal :P
21:21:44 <pabs> #action Zhenech will organise the next meeting
21:21:51 <Rhonda> angasulino: See, for me weekends are more troublesome because of family business. :)
21:22:24 <pabs> ok, apart from meetings, what else can we do to revive the team a bit? apart from kidnapping bdefreese and putting him in someone's basement
21:22:59 <Fuddl> we could kidnap... - oh, damn
21:23:00 <Kamping_Kaiser> kidnap Rhonda and put her in someones basement
21:23:05 <thekittster> encouraging sponsorship
21:23:06 <pabs> hehe :)
21:23:15 <Clint> play more games
21:23:20 <Zhenech> kidnap goneri?
21:23:21 <thekittster> we've got mostly non-DDs on the team
21:23:30 <Kamping_Kaiser> thekittster: aye. and streamlining sponsorship
21:23:35 <Zhenech> thekittster, thats statistically not true :)
21:23:44 <thekittster> oh OK
21:23:50 <Zhenech> ok rather :(
21:23:59 <pabs> agreed on that point. most of our non-DDs become DDs in the past couple of years though
21:24:02 <Fuddl> do we have team-internal rules for sponsorship?
21:24:11 <Zhenech> Fuddl, on the agenda, yes :)
21:24:12 <Rhonda> Kamping_Kaiser: I'm having my own basement soonish.
21:24:41 <Rhonda> I'd like to suggest some bug squashing events.
21:24:54 <pdewacht> that sounds fun
21:24:59 <thekittster> yes
21:25:00 <angasulino> Rhonda: agreed!
21:25:09 <ThibG> why not
21:25:10 <Rhonda> I get the impression that most people seem to care for their own pet games instead of the overall quality.
21:25:24 <thekittster> yes
21:25:27 <Zhenech> agreed
21:25:29 <pabs> sounds good
21:25:35 <Rhonda> Fuddl hopefully won't get too annoyed with nexuiz too soon, and me neither with wesnoth.
21:25:42 <thekittster> but time-wise that's not surprising
21:25:48 <Rhonda> And I guess others also have the games the care for.
21:25:59 <pdewacht> rhonda: it can be difficult to debug a game you don't know how to play
21:26:00 <Zhenech> Rhonda, yupp, even if not playing them for ages :(
21:26:05 <Rhonda> But I fear we have a fair amount of games that could need a little bit more hugging.
21:26:14 <Fuddl> Rhonda: agreed... and yes, i really care too much for my stuff and much, much, much [...] too less about other packages
21:26:29 <thekittster> definitely, but team-maintenance isn't publicly agreed-upon
21:26:38 <thekittster> it depends on individual maintainers
21:26:47 <Rhonda> So I really suggest to do some bug squashing events where we define which package's bugs we go through and work on for that night.
21:26:49 <Kamping_Kaiser> knowing what sort of changes can be made to a team package without treading on toes would be nice to document too
21:27:02 <thekittster> I mean some maintainers are OK with others looking after their packages
21:27:04 <thekittster> others less so
21:27:06 <Fuddl> sponsoring from my point of view: i often read the mails searching for sponsorship, but then i dodn't know if we have strict rules about sponsoring.
21:27:09 <Kamping_Kaiser> and if its ok to go through svn taking out easy bugs without taking out hard ones too
21:27:10 <thekittster> Kamping_Kaiser: exactly
21:27:23 <pabs> Rhonda: sounds a bit like http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Parties
21:27:25 <Rhonda> thekittster: I'm fine with everyone looking at wesnoth - as long as noone breaks it. :)
21:27:44 <thekittster> heh
21:27:57 <thekittster> there's also meta-packages to think about
21:28:00 <thekittster> like g-d-p
21:28:43 <Zhenech> ok, so we need: 1. Sponsoring guidelines 2. team "fix" guidelines 3. fun?
21:28:54 <pabs> #idea streamlining sponsorship
21:29:05 <pabs> #idea bug squashing parties
21:29:06 <Rhonda> pabs: Yes, a bit like that. Maybe a combination. "game of the week + bug squashing for it":
21:29:17 <pabs> #idea more fun!
21:29:19 <Rhonda> Someone explaining the game to others
21:29:30 <tnnn> Sounds like fun
21:29:31 <Kamping_Kaiser> and getting all the games with fixes in VCS uploaded so we can see what needs work
21:29:32 <Rhonda> And then a combined force to squash its bugs
21:29:45 <angasulino> what is the status of CUT? I think that'd be much nicer for games in general (who uses stable for games, after all?)
21:30:08 <Kamping_Kaiser> angasulino: i'd suggest thats a bit of a side issue
21:30:11 <Rhonda> angasulino: Me, that's why I uploaded sgt-puzzles to squeeze-backports. :P
21:30:20 <pabs> angasulino: they are still defining what that means I think
21:30:25 <Zhenech> oh, backports
21:30:30 <Kamping_Kaiser> Rhonda: were you the one working on auto build+testing of all the packages in svn or was it someone else?
21:30:39 <Zhenech> Kamping_Kaiser, that was goneri
21:30:40 <pabs> lets not get too side-tracked from the agenda ok?
21:30:51 <Kamping_Kaiser> Zhenech: thanks
21:31:04 <pabs> more ideas? otherwise time to move on I think
21:31:19 <Kamping_Kaiser> goneri: mind if i pm you? wish to enquire about your test building code for the packages in vcs
21:31:47 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: could you #idea about making it clear whats allowed in the tteam maintance pls
21:31:56 <Rhonda> #link http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Parties
21:31:57 <Kamping_Kaiser> eg, what changes you can make to 'someone elses' package
21:31:58 <Zhenech> pabs, imho go on, i'd like to have a short "backports" agenda point later if possible
21:32:37 <pabs> #idea make it clear what team maintenance means (allowed packaging changes etc)
21:32:39 <ansgar> I wonder about the 1.0 -> 3.0 (quilt) changes as well.  I don't think it's a large change, but some do not like the change (and reacted quite harsh when someone new in the team changed this IMO).
21:32:42 <Kamping_Kaiser> ta
21:32:53 <pabs> Kamping_Kaiser: thats an unrestricted command btw
21:33:01 <ansgar> Which goes into the same direction as Kamping_Kaiser's question.
21:33:18 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: oh, handy. ta.
21:33:25 <Rhonda> Kamping_Kaiser: I would hope that it's allowed in team maintenance to do non-intrusive changes. Everything that changes e.g. the workflow for updating the package (like, deeper rules file changes of switching build system and the likes) should definitely be discussed with former uploaders of the package at least.
21:33:38 <pabs> ansgar: I guess thats the "packaging policy update" agenda item
21:33:57 <pabs> lets move on to wheezy roadmap?
21:34:24 <Kamping_Kaiser> Rhonda: i agree, i'd just like it discussed properly outside the meeting :) (even ifwe just use your words)
21:34:27 <Kamping_Kaiser> pabs: +1
21:34:46 <Fuddl> Rhonda: what to do if one asks for a deeper change on the list and there are no replies within a reasonable time? just do it? wait longer?
21:34:50 <Rhonda> Right, would get too longish here if we go into too much details.
21:35:08 <pabs> #topic wheezy roadmap
21:35:12 <Fuddl> oops, k, no details...
21:35:54 <pabs> so, what do we want to do for wheezy??? Please prefix your ideas with "#idea "
21:36:05 <Rhonda> Fuddl: It's VCS after all and can get reverted (I'd Cc the former uploaders to make sure they read the mail even if they don't have time for following the list at the time), but we should move on.
21:36:14 <Zhenech> #idea there was that XDG-support everywhere idea for squeeze by Baby -- revive it?
21:36:53 <Rhonda> Wouldn't that involve doing quite some upstream work on the packages, or even divert from upstream if they don't like it?
21:36:53 <Fuddl> Zhenech: what was the XDG-support? (URL sufficient for me)
21:36:58 <thekittster> #idea same clean-up as initiated by goneri in the summer of 2009
21:37:15 <ansgar> Fuddl: Move to ~/.config, ~/.local, ~/.cache for files in $HOME.
21:37:20 <Zhenech> #link http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html
21:37:27 <Zhenech> Fuddl, ^^
21:37:28 <Rhonda> Fuddl: the ~/.config/ and ~/.cache/ and other things instead of package dotfiles directly.
21:37:44 <pdewacht> wouldn't that mean a lot of debian-specific patches, and a lot of migration issues?
21:37:45 <Fuddl> ansgar, Zhenech, Rhonda: thx!
21:37:46 <ThibG> That would need changes upstream, yeah
21:37:51 <Kamping_Kaiser> would it be sane to try and hae all our packages 'up to date' for wheezy (meaning the latest vcs head is the package uploaded)
21:37:54 <pdewacht> we have a lot of games that don't have active upstreams anymore
21:38:07 <ThibG> or some patches to maintain
21:38:09 <pabs> thats another topic entirely pdewacht :(
21:38:38 <Zhenech> for active games we usually have good connections to upstream
21:38:45 <ThibG> pabs, how is it going with Sleep Is Death? A lot of path-related issues I guess...
21:38:46 <pabs> #idea all games with latest upstream version for wheezy
21:38:51 <Zhenech> and (from what I know) upstream is open for cool ideas :)
21:38:56 <Rhonda> #idea Plan for wheezy should include a meeting several weeks before freeze to check for outdated packages in our pool
21:38:57 <Kamping_Kaiser> stupid FDO *meh*
21:39:00 <Zhenech> pabs, not possible
21:39:17 <pabs> ThibG: haven't worked on it yet. I expect I will recycle the patches from his other games
21:39:30 <Rhonda> oudated meaning both upstream wise but also lintian/policy/other things
21:39:31 <pabs> Zhenech: more of a goal
21:40:14 <Kamping_Kaiser> Rhonda: i was thinking lintian/policy , i probably worded it badly
21:40:18 <ThibG> Kamping_Kaiser, hm?
21:40:45 <thekittster> right, fix http://lintian.debian.org/maintainer/pkg-games-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org.html
21:41:00 <Rhonda> #idea outdated not only with respect to upstream releases but also for lintian/policy related changes
21:41:03 <ThibG> pabs, ok, but did his other games need to store data the way SiD needs to?
21:41:04 <Kamping_Kaiser> ThibG: hm?
21:41:12 <ThibG> "stupid FDO *meh*"
21:41:41 <Kamping_Kaiser> oh, comment was about them moving everything around.
21:41:42 <pabs> ThibG: haven't looked into it, but probably. they all use his minorGems convenience library
21:41:42 <Zhenech> #idea all games should have debtags (for goplay) and (if needed) menu&desktop files
21:41:43 <thekittster> I take it he doesn't like the basedir spec
21:42:18 <thekittster> Zhenech: +1
21:42:30 <Fuddl> #idea desktop menu file should include more translations
21:42:47 <Kamping_Kaiser> ThibG: or polluting my home dir with directories i don't want (looking at you Music)... but back to the meeting ;)
21:43:22 <Rhonda> #idea screenshots for all of our packages on screenshots.debian.net
21:43:43 <Zhenech> Rhonda, thats almost complete by baby and me :)
21:43:46 <pabs> #idea package some games that can be played on smartphones
21:43:58 <Fuddl> do the screenshots as displayed in the GNOME "software center" come from screenshots.debian.net?
21:44:07 <Rhonda> yes
21:44:52 <Fuddl> +1 for screenshots for every package! :) for a quick and dirty overview of games packages i like the software center
21:45:05 <pabs> #idea look at rewriting GoPlay to be more flashy and figuring out its relationship to AppStream
21:45:08 * Rhonda . o O ( That was part of my "Debian and its Ressources" talk at the openSUSE conference, that Ubuntu uses the screenshots *more* through the software center than Debian does %-) )
21:45:33 <pabs> #idea get the playdeb folks involved in the team
21:45:51 <Rhonda>21:45:52 <Zhenech> #idea don't only package, also remove old cruft
21:46:43 <pabs> ok, I think we have lots of ideas for wheezy, shall we move on?
21:46:56 <Rhonda> #idea For the package care days (explenation and squashing), get some random script so that they aren't hand-selected, and that we might be able to find cruft through that
21:46:58 <Fuddl> i once had a glance at a few playdeb packages and they looked like really very, very poor quality.
21:47:01 <stevecotton> #idea recommendations of 5-10 games that are most fun, as in a "new users start here to feel good about what Debian has"
21:47:02 <pdewacht> what is AppStream?
21:47:19 <pdewacht> google suggest some iPad thing?
21:47:37 <Zhenech> pdewacht, some new shiny uber-distro app-store :)
21:47:44 <pabs> pdewacht: http://distributions.freedesktop.org/wiki/AppStream
21:47:47 <Rhonda> Fuddl: Yep, had a fair amount of strange bug reports in wesnoth rooting in the usage of playdeb packages
21:48:04 <Rhonda> Nex topic?
21:48:05 <Rhonda> +t
21:48:05 <lincoln> just a question, playdeb site has any kind of integration with any debian (or ubuntu) package? providing some tags as was suggested, would make it easy to build a site (or any other UI) to show which games we have on debian
21:48:10 <pabs> pdewacht: app-store like stuff for distributions, lots of the data shared between distros
21:48:13 <Zhenech> is playdeb = getdeb?
21:48:27 <Fuddl> Rhonda: so we've got a similar problem like pkg-multimedia and that obscure debian-multimedia archive
21:48:28 <Kamping_Kaiser> Zhenech: yeah
21:48:32 <Zhenech> brrrr
21:48:39 <Kamping_Kaiser> yeah
21:48:45 <Rhonda> lincoln: Yes, we actually discussed that at debconf9, but we haven't put that into life yet.  %-/
21:48:49 <Fuddl> Zhenech: i think not, but in my opinion both have the same quality issues
21:48:52 <pabs> Zhenech: yep, but games focused. I agree about their quality but I think there is a lot of duplication there we could reduce
21:49:03 <lincoln> Rhonda, humm, that's something I'd really like to help :D
21:49:08 <pabs> anyways next topic time!
21:49:18 <lincoln> let's go!
21:49:21 <pabs> #topic recruiting/accepting new members
21:49:22 <Zhenech> pabs, from what I've seen at getdeb: take debian-revision-X, stuff new upstream in, release
21:49:56 <Zhenech> #idea before recruiting, get a firm overview who is still active in here
21:50:05 <Zhenech> (I like the cleaning ideas, heh?)
21:50:14 <Fuddl> i'm alive ;)
21:50:31 <Zhenech> Fuddl, look at the pkg-games members on alioth…
21:50:36 <pabs> Zhenech: like a 3 monthly ping to all pkg-games members?
21:50:40 <pdewacht> I guess I'm mostly dead :)
21:50:43 <tnnn> It depends how do you define 'here'...
21:50:51 <pabs> Zhenech: care to volunteer for that? :)
21:50:52 <thekittster> #idea clarify the mailing lists' roles, new people get confused and frustrated
21:50:53 <Fuddl> can anybody give a number of how many (semi-)active members we still have?
21:51:27 <Fuddl> thekittster: do you mean the confusion by debian-devel-games vs. pkg-games?
21:51:38 <thekittster> depends whether you count packaging activity or ml activity
21:51:46 <thekittster> Fuddl: exactly
21:52:12 <pabs> ok, the reason I added this agenda item was that I noticed we are particularly bad at noticing new game packagers (on pkg-games-devel, -mentors and elsewhere) and integrating them into the team
21:52:17 <Zhenech> Fuddl, pkg-games has 150(!) members on alioth
21:52:24 <Kamping_Kaiser> a number of things that could be included here were also brought ujp in the first few topics too
21:52:25 <Fuddl> thekittster: yeah, that's something i don't like, too.
21:52:47 <Fuddl> Zhenech: but it will always confuse people if there are two lists for one team
21:52:58 <Kamping_Kaiser> mmm
21:52:59 <Zhenech> pabs, I could do a ping-all and kick everyone not responding after a second ping and X month
21:53:04 <Kamping_Kaiser> do we /need/ two lists?
21:53:08 <Zhenech> pabs, I do not like ping every X time
21:53:33 <Zhenech> imho we dont
21:53:44 <pabs> #action Zhenech to ping all pkg-games members
21:53:55 <Kamping_Kaiser> as long as people who are removed can re join later when they have time
21:54:05 <Zhenech> Kamping_Kaiser, sure they can
21:54:06 <thekittster> yes
21:54:31 <pabs> Zhenech: please base your pings on lack of SVN/git/list activity
21:54:54 <Zhenech> #info please base your pings on lack of SVN/git/list activity
21:54:59 <Zhenech> pabs, use that damn bot :P
21:55:04 <pabs> sorry :)
21:55:09 <Fuddl> lol
21:55:57 <thekittster> #idea encourage new members to pick a (forgotten) package to look after
21:56:18 <Rhonda> debian-games@lists.d.o was added later after the pkg-games-devel@lists.alioth was in place for rather longish time.
21:56:27 <Fuddl> how to attract new members, besides of getdeb/playdeb/etc.?
21:56:28 <Rhonda> And I think noone really suggested to turn the old list down.
21:56:32 <tnnn> How about writing a short, introductory HowTo? It could be even longer blog post - Ive seen a few like that on planet.
21:56:33 <thekittster> #idea clarify what it means to join the team and who can respond "officially"
21:56:41 <pabs> I think we need someone to volunteer until the next meeting to watch -mentors, pkg-games-devel and other lists and handhold new people into the team
21:56:49 <Fuddl> Rhonda: then i'll suggest to turn the old list down
21:56:52 <pabs> and rotate the next month
21:57:07 <lincoln> tnnn, there's already a good starting point in our wiki, maybe we should make it more visible
21:57:13 <thekittster> Fuddl: that would mean changing the maintainer on all the packages
21:57:16 <Rhonda> Fuddl: It's the Maintainer address.
21:57:27 <pabs> Rhonda: my understanding was that pkg-games was for bug/etc mail, and -devel-games was for discussion
21:57:41 <Rhonda> Yes, something like that.
21:57:54 <Fuddl> thekittster, Rhonda: oops, right. then i'd suggest to shut down d-d-g
21:57:58 <pabs> #idea start doing Debian games team parties http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Parties
21:58:03 <Zhenech> #idea talk to mentors.d.n to auto-ping us on section:games uploads
21:58:24 <Kamping_Kaiser> ditto debexpo
21:58:33 <Zhenech> wthats debexpo?
21:58:46 <Kamping_Kaiser> the project to write a new mentors codebase
21:59:09 <Zhenech> same guys, right?
21:59:27 <pabs> yep, and some new ppl
21:59:28 <Kamping_Kaiser> don't know, i've only been peripherally involved with debexpo, and not at all with mentors dev
21:59:37 <Rhonda> Alright, how many more topics do we have? We are not almost an hour into the meeting.
21:59:58 <Rhonda> Please try to keep distraction discussions to a minimum.
22:00:05 <thekittster> 5!
22:00:06 <pabs> Rhonda: my plan was to go until the time is up
22:00:09 <Fuddl> please press fast-forward, i'm really tired
22:00:14 * Rhonda . o O ( yes, I include myself in that )
22:00:32 <Rhonda> pabs: The time is up when you do #endmeeting, not before
22:00:51 <pabs> maybe we should fold the meeting and re-convene next month?
22:01:03 <Fuddl> pabs: agreed
22:01:17 <Rhonda> I don't want to cut it short, actually
22:01:28 <ansgar> I am fine with continuing a bit more.
22:01:30 <Fuddl> fun fact: then we won't have to worry if we've got something to talk about next month ;)
22:01:37 <pabs> #action pabs volunteers to watch various lists and handhold folks into the team until the next meeting
22:01:42 <Kamping_Kaiser> we started a few minutes late, perhaps anotehr 5 min of meeting?
22:01:53 <pabs> ok, 5 minutes
22:01:56 * Zhenech would have an hour :)
22:02:13 <pabs> next topic ....
22:02:24 <pabs> #topic packaging policy update
22:03:11 <mase> maybe i can get a chance to introduce myself at the end of the meeting? i am new here.
22:03:32 <pabs> argh, we should have done that at the beginning, sorry
22:03:43 <pabs> but yes lets do that at the end :)
22:03:44 <thekittster> do we have an actual policy?
22:03:46 <Kamping_Kaiser> how is the packaging policy different to deb policy?
22:03:47 <mase> nevermind
22:04:02 <thekittster> there's some stuff on http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Development but not much
22:04:16 <pabs> Kamping_Kaiser: common style, debhelper vs cdbs vs yada etc
22:04:26 <pdewacht> and git vs svn?
22:04:33 <Fuddl> OMG, svn...
22:04:46 <Rhonda> pabs, you can #chair others too if you like, I'm off now.
22:04:53 <pabs> http://wiki.debian.org/Games/ToolsDiscuss
22:04:54 <Zhenech> http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Policy
22:04:58 <thekittster> #idea finish migrating to git?
22:05:00 <Fuddl> bye Rhonda
22:05:05 <pabs> Rhonda: night
22:05:09 <Zhenech> gute nacht Rhonda
22:05:12 <pabs> #chair Zhenech
22:05:12 <MeetBot> Current chairs: Rhonda Zhenech pabs
22:05:14 <thekittster> Zhenech: ah yes thanks
22:05:19 <mase> cu Rhonda
22:05:24 <pdewacht> to be honest svn never really bothered me for packages
22:05:26 <ansgar> I think using both Git or SVN is okay (I prefer Git myself).
22:05:41 * pabs prefers SVN
22:05:42 <Zhenech> there is a point in using svn for some packages
22:05:45 <thekittster> ansgar: same for me
22:05:58 <Kamping_Kaiser> i prefer git, but i'm not sure about storing entire packages (incl upstream) in our vcs
22:05:58 <Zhenech> we had that discussion and we ended up on using both
22:06:21 <Rhonda> Zhenech: There's a point in not importing upstream sources into VCS. But that point is neither a reason for or against git vs. svn.
22:06:22 <pabs> can we agree on moving towards debhelper 7's rules.tiny style rules files?
22:06:24 <Kamping_Kaiser> then agin, prefering git over svn is like prefering being stabbed in the arm over being stabbed in the eye
22:06:56 <lincoln> pabs, +1 for debhelper 7
22:07:03 <ansgar> Yes, +1 for dh.
22:07:10 <thekittster> yup
22:07:15 <pabs> any objections?
22:07:17 <ThibG> +1 for dh7
22:07:20 <Rhonda> Actually personally I think dh7 tiny makes easy things easy and complicate things complicate because one has to dig around for what autofoo overridebar one needs.
22:07:39 <Zhenech> is debian/-only git possible noadays?
22:07:47 <Rhonda> But I guess I should bite the sour apple and finally learn it. I prefer seeing what's done, not have a blackbox.
22:07:50 <Kamping_Kaiser> how will dh7 rules.tiny affect the ability to backport packages?
22:07:53 <ansgar> I do not mind keeping debhelper 5 for some packages in case it is easier for those.
22:08:04 <ansgar> Kamping_Kaiser: dh 8 is in squeeze-backports, squeeze has 7.x.
22:08:11 <Rhonda> Kamping_Kaiser: squeeze-backports both supports source v3 and even has dh8
22:08:12 <Fuddl> i think it was about three times i didn't fix something in packages living in svn because it got on my nerves. mainly because of "where's that goddam .orig.tar.gz?!"
22:08:21 <pabs> Kamping_Kaiser: its available in lenny IIRC, but I think the lenny one doesn't have override_*
22:08:41 <Rhonda> And since backports is official even lenny-backports supports source v3
22:08:41 <ansgar> The one in lenny-backports should have override_*
22:08:44 <pabs> Fuddl: thats what get-orig-source/uscan are for
22:08:55 <Kamping_Kaiser> no problem for backports then. :)
22:09:04 <Fuddl> i prefer the pristine-tar checkout way
22:09:08 <Kamping_Kaiser> other then the magic factor i have no objection
22:09:10 <Rhonda> Fuddl: In the pool. :)
22:09:21 <pabs> I think maybe we could discuss this topic for hours, but sadly we are out of time
22:09:24 <ansgar> Oh, lenny-backports even has debhelper 8 as well.
22:09:29 <Kamping_Kaiser> in the watch file ;)
22:09:39 <pabs> #idea move to debhelper 7's rules.tiny style
22:09:40 <Rhonda> But yes, debcheckout should have a hook to fetch the .orig.tar.gz too
22:10:00 <ansgar> Rhonda: It has nowadays.
22:10:15 <ansgar> debcheckout foo will get the orig.tar.gz and extract it in case the VCS only has debian/.
22:10:15 <pabs> #topic introductions
22:10:23 <Rhonda> But now really off, the topic though sounded too important to not hand my idea.
22:11:07 <pabs> ok, closing the meeting, we can discuss whatever afterwards
22:11:13 <pabs> #endmeeting