Started logging meeting in #debian-edu, times are UTC.
[19:00:50] * pere = Petter Reinholdtsen
[19:01:00] <h01ger> meetbot has become quieter. it doesnt repeat ideas, actions, links anymore...
[19:01:07] <pere> good
[19:01:10] * h01ger = Holger Levsen
[19:01:32] <h01ger> itais meetbot vagrantc sepski jorgenhg H sep jever OleA_ OleA k4x zamba jemtland_ winnie xoswald h01ger C14r_ white akai Tolimar finnarne zobel sirius Werner TheLaw sangamon_ Bman^ esc danielsan pere_away klausade lazyb0y: please indicate your presence by saying "/me = firstname lastname"
[19:01:40] * jever = Jürgen Leibner
[19:01:42] <h01ger> #topic who writes the summary?
[19:01:43] * sepski = Ronny Aasen
[19:01:43] * vagrantc = Vagrant Cascadian
[19:01:55] * itais = José L. Redrejo
[19:01:58] <h01ger> #link http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Meeting
[19:02:04] * H = René Mérou
[19:02:06] <h01ger> thats the agenda url, as usual
[19:02:32] * pere propose itais as the summary writer. :)
[19:02:38] * winnie = Patrick Winnertz
[19:02:39] <h01ger> no volunteers to write the summary? /me puts a pizza in the ofen :)
[19:02:57] <itais> I won't be here all the time. It's dinner time for my sons :-)
[19:03:02] <itais> so I can not write the summary
[19:03:49] <h01ger> itais, quite the contrary: thats why you're a good candidate to write it. you want to read backlog anyway, dont you? ;)
[19:04:48] * h01ger waits for an angel^wa summary writer to appear
[19:06:03] <h01ger> .
[19:07:16] <sepski> looks bleak. i simply dont have time after the meeting , and untill thursday.
[19:07:17] <pere> 7 people, no summary writer. :/
[19:07:35] <sepski> and i realy hope we can finish by 20:00 utc...
[19:07:38] <h01ger> and an agenda full of stuff to discuss
[19:07:48] <vagrantc> i'll write the summary
[19:07:52] <pere> 52 minutes left.
[19:07:55] * h01ger cheers vagrantc
[19:08:00] <pere> hurrey!
[19:08:08] <h01ger> #action vagrant will write the summary
[19:08:25] <h01ger> #topic bugs we care about in etch / debian-edu 3.0 r2
[19:08:40] <h01ger> debian 4.0r3 is intended to happen in February, and mainly to fix issues with 4.0r2 - should we skip debians r2 and base our r2 on debians r3?
[19:08:47] <sepski> vagrantc, for beeing not too involved. i realy appreciate it.
[19:09:12] <pere> I really believe we need to push the new d-e-config from etch-test into etch. it solve the ltsp rebuild problem bothering quite a lot of people.
[19:09:13] <h01ger> #link http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/roadmap#head-1b37bfac69ae761dc10944ed2f25d8216a17f521 is where i track what i think is reasonable to fix in etch r2.
[19:09:20] <h01ger> IMO we should use bugzilla for lenny now...
[19:09:36] <h01ger> pere, which # is that?
[19:10:22] <h01ger> do you agree we should "skip" debians r2 and base/release our r2 based debians r2? (we can push d-e-c earlier...)
[19:10:40] <sepski> h01ger, it's not been bugged afaik.
[19:10:40] <pere> not sure. the fix was to disable the apt hooks for etc-svk, and to add a ltsp build hook to include our keyring pakcages.
[19:11:01] <pere> I agree we should base our new release on debian r3, yes.
[19:11:23] <pere> not even sure if we want to make new images. what exactly will we winn?
[19:11:24] <h01ger> pere, can you add that package to http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Status/Etch to the table "Status of packages which should go into 3.0 r2"
[19:11:44] <h01ger> pere, debians r2 brought new kernel images with some fixes
[19:11:55] <h01ger> so d-i was rebuild
[19:12:10] <h01ger> i'm quite sure it affected i386/amd64 as well
[19:12:22] * h01ger checks
[19:12:32] <pere> in the installer?
[19:12:42] * h01ger takes silence as agreement on the "base on debians r3 question"...
[19:12:44] <h01ger> pere, yes
[19:12:52] <sepski> if the installer is unaffected it would save a lot of work..
[19:13:07] <h01ger> #agreed we will "skip" debians r2 and base our r2 on debians r3
[19:13:40] <h01ger> "The installer has been updated to use and support the updated kernels included in this release. This change causes old netboot and floppy images to stop working; updated versions are available from the regular locations."
[19:13:51] <h01ger> from the debian r2 announcement
[19:13:55] <pere> ack.
[19:14:16] <pere> but we do not use either, so not a big issue for us. our udebs are on the CDs and DVDs.
[19:14:37] <sepski> h01ger, does the updated kernels support newer hardware ?
[19:14:56] <sepski> only reason i can see to rebuild the images
[19:14:56] * h01ger will check this. it might very well be the case. i seem to recall that...
[19:15:10] <h01ger> anyway, other things which needs fixing in etch?
[19:15:42] * pere do not know, have started focusing on lenny and the boot system.
[19:16:17] <h01ger> #action please add packages you want to see fixed in etch to http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Status/Etch and send a mail to email@example.com as when we released etch r1
[19:16:18] * itais only focused in lenny
[19:16:29] <h01ger> so lets move to lenny
[19:16:38] <h01ger> #topic lenny
[19:16:49] <h01ger> this has quite some subtopics, please let us keep them in order!
[19:17:02] <h01ger> this are the subs:
[19:17:05] <h01ger> cd building
[19:17:05] <h01ger> dak upgrade
[19:17:05] <h01ger> roadmap
[19:17:05] <h01ger> progress on bug #311188
[19:17:05] <h01ger> xmms replacement
[19:17:06] <h01ger> ldapify services?
[19:17:08] <h01ger> bind9 vs powerdns
[19:17:10] <h01ger> dhcpd alternatives
[19:17:16] <h01ger> #topic 3.1 lenny - cd building
[19:17:21] <h01ger> does it work now?
[19:17:23] <itais> it's still broken
[19:17:29] <sepski> no. it still does not work.
[19:17:51] <h01ger> whats the problem?
[19:18:04] <sepski> i have not had time to look deeply. but the build fail with a missing packages file
[19:18:04] <h01ger> time? an idea whats broken? ?
[19:18:20] <sepski> from local/lenny
[19:18:44] <h01ger> sepski, and we're still using this half-applied patch?
[19:18:54] <h01ger> can this cause the problems?
[19:19:16] <sepski> the exact error is Can't open Packages file /skolelinux/administrator/temp_storage/builder/lenny-test-i386/lenny/CD1/dists/lenny/local/binary-i386/Packages : No such file or directory
[19:19:52] <pere> sepski: with lenny, didn't the archive move to compressed packages files only?
[19:19:57] <sepski> the patch is fully applied, and the problem have been there since dak upgrade
[19:20:07] <h01ger> there is CD1 in the path and that smells of a multicd issue. and multicd is that new feature...
[19:20:08] <sepski> pere, we enabled the uncompressed ones again .
[19:20:16] <h01ger> sepski, ah
[19:20:32] <h01ger> anyway, move on?
[19:20:51] <sepski> h01ger, yes i think you are right since the old system used "CD" only
[19:21:10] <h01ger> #idea cd-building still broken, the exact error is Can't open Packages file /skolelinux/administrator/temp_storage/builder/lenny-test-i386/lenny/CD1/dists/lenny/local/binary-i386/Packages : No such file or directory
[19:21:32] <h01ger> #topic 3.2 lenny - dak upgrade
[19:22:13] <h01ger> this is mostly done. there was not really much documentation about+during the upgrade and the existing docs have only half be updated, but we can more or less cope :)
[19:22:36] <h01ger> two cronjobs now send mails about NEW packages, but thats minor
[19:22:54] <h01ger> and we're happy to have sepski in the team! \o/
[19:22:57] <h01ger> next topic? ;)
[19:23:17] <itais> go on
[19:23:48] <h01ger> #agreed all is well :)
[19:23:57] <h01ger> #topic 3.3 lenny - roadmap
[19:24:17] <h01ger> #link http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/roadmap
[19:24:42] <h01ger> IMO this topic is covered by the other lenny-subtopics and we should move on. agreed?
[19:24:59] <itais> #agreed
[19:25:08] <sepski> yes
[19:25:20] <h01ger> #agreed this topic is covered by the other lenny-subtopics
[19:25:33] <h01ger> #topic 3.4 lenny - progress on #311188
[19:25:43] <winnie> okay
[19:25:44] <h01ger> #link http://bugs.debian.org/311188
[19:25:49] <winnie> I think this is my part
[19:26:03] * h01ger cheers winnie for his part! :)
[19:26:09] <winnie> I've worked the last weeks on a solution for our long standing bug...
[19:26:35] <winnie> so there are some issues I worked on and I need some help
[19:27:05] <winnie> I've contacted the syslog-ng maint and he agreed to include a patch to preseed syslog-ng (enable remote logging)
[19:27:21] <h01ger> winnie, do you know http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Bug311188 ? i've started that in merida, as its somewhat tiring to read thru all the bug mails to get an overview.. i havent had time to look at it since then, but plan to spend time in narvik on it
[19:27:40] <h01ger> #link http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Bug311188
[19:27:40] <winnie> no I don't know this page
[19:28:02] <winnie> there is some work which have to be done:
[19:28:14] <winnie> a patch to enable preseeding of openldap2
[19:28:28] <winnie> a patch to enable preseeding of bind9
[19:28:38] <winnie> I'm working on syslog-ng
[19:28:57] <h01ger> do we agree to switch to syslog-ng for lenny? shouldnt we switch today then?
[19:29:14] <winnie> I would say so.. the maint of sysklog doesn't want debconf stuff in his package
[19:29:24] <sepski> h01ger, i think it's a good idea. syslog-ng also have nice frontends for admin to read logs in
[19:29:36] <winnie> so if we want to have this bug to be closed we have to switch
[19:29:38] <h01ger> #info work to be done: a patch to enable preseeding of openldap2, a patch to enable preseeding of bind9. winnie is working on a patch for syslog-ng. and there is more work in #311188 :)
[19:29:39] * pere is not sure. but I believe we should identify issues that can be fixed by replacing the package.
[19:30:02] <pere> winnie: did you talk with the sysklogd maintainer on irc? might be an idea
[19:30:26] <winnie> pere: I've talked with him a half year ago and he even rejects to use debhelper stuff in his package
[19:30:42] <pere> winnie: ok. :/
[19:30:43] <winnie> he'll never include things like debconf etc. in his package
[19:31:07] <winnie> and i've prepared already a patch for sysklogd as a whislistbug against it..
[19:31:12] <itais> winnie: I don't understand " enable preseeding of openldap2" , slapd allows preseeds now
[19:31:21] * h01ger is also in favor of switching to syslog-ng but would like to know itais opinion on this
[19:31:43] <h01ger> itais, i think he means #370343
[19:31:44] <winnie> itais: which values can be set by preseeding slapd?
[19:31:49] <itais> holger: don't have an opinion for syslog-ng. I don't have any problem to switch either
[19:32:30] <h01ger> so we agree to switch?
[19:32:31] <winnie> we need a value to say: we want to run on ldap:/// and ldaps:///
[19:32:51] <h01ger> winnie, is that #370343?
[19:33:01] * pere have nothing against switching, but would like to know if there are any problems with it. :)
[19:33:05] <winnie> wait
[19:33:06] <sepski> h01ger, we agree to test it atlest
[19:33:07] <itais> winnie: ok, that option can not be preseeded
[19:33:33] <winnie> h01ger: yes this is #370343
[19:33:43] <h01ger> #agreed we switch to syslog-ng in lenny now, to test if it works. if it doesnt, well, we keep the pieces ;)
[19:33:53] <winnie> these two settings have to be preseeded
[19:34:04] <h01ger> #action holger will document this in #370339 (the syslog bug)
[19:34:20] <winnie> h01ger: we've to figure out the correct settings for syslog-ng
[19:34:25] <winnie> but this shouldn't be so hard
[19:34:44] <h01ger> #action 370349 is also syslog related.
[19:34:58] <h01ger> winnie, please go ahead ;-)
[19:35:32] * pere would like a list of issues, and proposals (as in fix the package, switch to package X or Y, drop).
[19:36:07] <winnie> h01ger: I'll look at it
[19:36:10] <itais> winnie: I can do the patch for #370343 if it's not already done but it's not clear in the bug if the maintainer is active and will apply it
[19:36:16] <h01ger> ok, looking at the time and the agenda (and that we've actually made some progress with this bug), i propose to move on - except that i want to reply to pere first... ;)
[19:36:28] <h01ger> pere, something like http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Bug311188 but with more info?
[19:36:57] <h01ger> #action itais will provide a patch for #370343
[19:37:11] <pere> h01ger: yes, with more info.
[19:37:33] <winnie> itais: yes this is true. Torsten answered and he would agree on applying it.. and i think vorlong will also do
[19:37:44] <h01ger> #agreed http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Bug311188 should lists issues and proposals (as in fix the package, switch to package X or Y, drop).
[19:37:44] <winnie> I'll write a email to him and ask if you like
[19:38:07] <itais> winnie: ok
[19:38:15] * h01ger votes for next topic and having this topic at the next meeting again
[19:38:33] <h01ger> #topic 3.5 lenny - xmms replacement
[19:38:48] <h01ger> we have 22min and 7 topics left....
[19:39:09] * pere uses amarok to play music
[19:39:15] <h01ger> xmms depends on gtk1 which will be removed for lenny, because/if nobody maintains it. gtk1 is dead upstream since years
[19:39:24] <pere> what purpose did xmms fill that we need to refill?
[19:39:41] * sepski used vlc.
[19:39:57] <h01ger> there was a little flamewar on #debian-devel last night and probably still a discussion on firstname.lastname@example.org about this. i suggest to see what happens in debian...
[19:40:01] <winnie> pere: listen to music
[19:40:24] <pere> winnie: could amarok fill that need?
[19:40:28] <itais> Audacious seems the natural replacement of xmms
[19:40:33] <winnie> but I'm not sure if we need this. I would suggest remove it (and all of it dependencys)
[19:40:35] <h01ger> minirok
[19:40:38] <sepski> does kde/gnome prefer a player if yes we should use those ?
[19:40:41] <winnie> and maybe add audacious
[19:40:45] * pere have not used xmms for a long time, so have no opinion.
[19:40:45] <itais> amarok is much more than xmms and too big
[19:41:01] * h01ger really thinks minirok may well be it
[19:41:01] <itais> minirok could be an option too, it's not as bloated as amarok
[19:41:10] <pere> check popcon ratings for the alternatives.
[19:41:24] <sepski> pere, good suggestion
[19:41:32] * winnie uses amarok too but it is too big for us
[19:41:43] <h01ger> #idea xmms depends on gtk1 which will be removed for lenny, because/if nobody maintains it. gtk1 is dead upstream since years
[19:41:55] <h01ger> move on?
[19:41:58] <sepski> yes please
[19:42:15] <h01ger> #topic 3.6 lenny - ldapify services?
[19:42:22] <h01ger> bind9 vs powerdns
[19:42:22] <h01ger> dhcpd alternatives:#215968 , using a cron to fill dchp config files, maybe others?
[19:42:28] <h01ger> are the subtopics
[19:42:49] <pere> ltsp too
[19:42:58] <itais> i like what I've read of powerdns and sep informations, but we have to be sure of the migration from etch
[19:42:58] <h01ger> ltsp?
[19:43:13] <pere> h01ger: yes, fetching LTSP client config from ldap. allows for LTSP server clusters.
[19:43:25] <h01ger> ah
[19:43:27] <itais> for dhcpd the cron seems to be the only safe alternative
[19:43:43] <itais> pere: is any previous work on ltsp from ldap done somewhere?
[19:44:03] <pere> itais: yes. I posted about it on ltsp-devel a year or more ago.
[19:44:37] <H> h01ger: i added one bug fix to ktoch: http://lists.debian.org/debian-qt-kde/2008/01/msg00058.html im not sure if this is something to remember here, but it makes ktouch usefull for spanish, and ktouch is something good to teach in school
[19:44:43] <h01ger> the openwrt people have developed a library for accesing config files, which allows several backends. one of them is ldap. this is not ready yet, but might be very cool stuff in future
[19:44:53] <sepski> have anyone looked at the dhcp patch for ldap? it is something we could update to dhcp in lenny ? or is it old and forgotten ?
[19:45:35] <sepski> i suspect its out of out time resource capabilities
[19:45:48] <pere> I suspect we list our alternatives, and try to pick among them. I am not sure if powerdns is the best option, for example. the combined dns and dhcp server fetching data from ldap sound like a better solution, if it is good.
[19:46:11] * h01ger thinks we need a bug in our bts to track this. or more than one.
[19:46:12] <pere> I would prefer something that connect directly to ldap, instead of depending on cron
[19:46:13] <sepski> pere, combined ? are you talking about dnsmasq ?
[19:46:22] <pere> sep: could be. do not remember.
[19:46:51] <pere> we might also want to check the service location protocols
[19:47:43] <sepski> i will add a configfile for pdns to svn, and a migration snippet. but not change the default. so more people can test it.
[19:47:44] <pere> we need to know what LDAP schemas the different services are using.
[19:47:49] <h01ger> can someone please open a general bug in our bugzilla, "ldapify services" and then add blocking bugs, "ldapify dns", "..dhcp", etc?
[19:48:06] <pere> are there good standards for it, and if so, we should pick one using such standards.
[19:48:31] <pere> h01ger: it might be better with a wiki for taking notes.
[19:48:50] <h01ger> pere, will you create that wiki page then? ;)
[19:49:12] * pere trust itais to do it. :P
[19:49:21] <h01ger> itais, will you?
[19:49:22] <sepski> pere, for a dhcp server with ldap is it a requirement to have the leasefile in ldap ? so one can cluster/failover. or are we talking stricktly config ?
[19:49:24] * itais is back again
[19:49:25] <h01ger> 11min left..
[19:49:41] <itais> sepski: we tried the dchp patch for ldap and it's not working with current dhcpd version
[19:50:11] <pere> for dhcp, we want a server that can submit ntp setup etc.
[19:50:31] <itais> h01ger: I was thinking more in doing the agenda for Narvik, but I can do the wiki page instead
[19:50:52] <pere> itais: we probably need to do both.
[19:51:03] <h01ger> #action itais will create a wiki page, "ldapify services" and there have several paragraphs, each describing one service, proposal solutions, status.
[19:51:04] <itais> I know but I can not do both :-D
[19:51:10] <h01ger> itais, great! thanks :)
[19:51:43] <h01ger> next topic... the rest is details and should be dealt later, on the list and in the bts :)
[19:51:51] <h01ger> #topic www.skolelinux.org
[19:51:58] <h01ger> akai, jever? are you here?
[19:52:06] <jever> yes
[19:52:31] <h01ger> i suggest to have a website session saturday morning in narvik.
[19:52:55] * jever is preparing a demosite for explaining his understanding of multilingual site right now
[19:53:05] <h01ger> we dont have time for more now anyway. there is some backlog/todo on the mailinglist and some on the wiki page..
[19:53:09] <itais> h01ger: will you do Narvik agenda? ;-)
[19:53:13] <h01ger> jever, cool
[19:53:18] <h01ger> itais, nope :)
[19:53:30] <h01ger> itais, i want to be able to do _some_ work ;)
[19:53:43] <jever> I think I will be able to have a rollout scenario ready for Narvik
[19:53:51] <pere> more on the web site or next topic?
[19:53:56] <h01ger> #action jever is preparing a demosite for explaining his understanding of multilingual site. he hopes to have a rollout scenario ready for Narvik
[19:54:07] <h01ger> #action holger suggests to have a website session saturday morning in narvik.
[19:54:21] <h01ger> #topic 5. netboot install repository
[19:54:24] <h01ger> finnarne?
[19:54:44] <sepski> * [finnarne] idle 07:40:16, signon: Mon Dec 24 11:38:49
[19:54:47] * pere have always wanted PXE install support in skolelinux. :)
[19:54:51] * sepski too
[19:55:00] * jever too
[19:55:03] <pere> my dream has been to install the main-server, and PXE install the rest of the machines. :)
[19:55:08] <h01ger> #link http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/HowTo/NetbootInstall
[19:55:11] <sepski> altho i was thinking more of fai. a d-i working installer would be nice
[19:55:33] <vagrantc> doing network boot d-i is relatively simple
[19:55:44] <h01ger> #idea finnarne succeeded in netbooting installs of debian-edu but he didnt attend the meeting... :)
[19:55:59] <pere> vagrantc: would you be willing to guide my grandmother through the process, over the phone? :)
[19:56:04] <jever> I was thinking about to build finnarne solution in GT for automatically installing and testing
[19:56:12] <h01ger> vagrantc, the devilish detail is the extra repo debian-edu uses...
[19:56:35] * h01ger knows netbooting with d-i and fai and pure fai can be done. been there, done that :)
[19:56:45] <h01ger> #topic Ellaborate an Agenda for Narvik gathering
[19:56:49] <h01ger> 4min left :)
[19:56:56] <pere> I suspect we should fix d-i to support preseeding the location of the .disk/ directory for netinstalls.
[19:56:59] <sepski> so we should get all our packages into debian asap :)
[19:57:05] * h01ger suggests to elaborate the agenda in the wiki and on the list
[19:57:20] * vagrantc would happily work on netboot installs for debian-edu
[19:57:24] * h01ger nods sepski, not pere :)
[19:57:41] <pere> scaling and ldap-converting are the topics I want to discuss in narvink
[19:57:48] <h01ger> #agreed to elaborate the agenda for narvik in the wiki and on the list
[19:57:56] <h01ger> #topic 8. next meeting?
[19:58:07] <h01ger> before or after narvik?
[19:58:26] * h01ger suggests 8 days after narvik.
[19:58:30] <pere> after should be enough, I believe.
[19:58:34] <jever> after, I think
[19:58:35] <sepski> agreed
[19:58:41] <itais> agreed
[19:59:28] <h01ger> #agreed next irc meeting should be after narvik, probably 8 or 15 days later
[19:59:37] <h01ger> #topic 7. any other business
[19:59:42] <pere> as for any other business, I am working on dependency based boot sequencing and speeding up the boot.
[20:00:02] * h01ger will give a talk about debian-edu etc. in the debian dev room at fosdem. who else will attend?
[20:00:09] <pere> it work in unstable, and I plan to get it enabled for lenny, at least for debian-edu, hopefully also for debian/lenny.
[20:00:17] <pere> give it a try. it is the insserv and readahead packages.
[20:00:29] * pere plan to give a talk about the boot system at fosdem.
[20:00:38] <h01ger> and there is a debconf8 meeting in #debconf-team now. the videoteam is looking for volunteers at fosdem and at debconf8 :)
[20:01:08] <pere> btw,
[20:01:11] * h01ger is in contact with cesar about another debian-edu dev meeting in extremadura this year. no real news yet
[20:01:23] <pere> someone need to fix the conffile removal code in debian-edu-config. It is missing. See bug in BTS.
[20:01:47] <sepski> h01ger, great meeting moderation, snappy and on the topic :) vagrantc thanks again for writing the summary. \o/ have to run now.
[20:01:51] <winnie> stupid question: when is fosdem?
[20:01:57] <pere> www.fosdem.org
[20:03:48] <pere> h01ger: a new meeting would be great. fitting it in the schedule will be interesting. coordinate with Werner.
[20:03:59] <h01ger> thank you all for attending and cnontributing to a fun + effective meeting!
[20:04:07] <pere> yeah.
[20:04:27] * jever thanks h01ger for his great moderation
[20:04:29] <h01ger> pere, will do
Information on meetbot is available at meetbot.debian.net